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  #21  
08-16-2015, 09:53 AM
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Yeah, don't use the ADVC-300 for sure. If you insist on DV conversion, then the ADVC-50/55 or 100/110 is better.

And as mentioned, DV itself has artifacts. You need to realize that DV was a compromise to quality so it would work on Pentium III computers of the 90s. That was as fast as CPUs were back then. DV is an ancient format by computing standards, and always had subpar issues. (MPEG is older, but was not yet realtime, hence still modern.)

You need a DV camera for the DV tapes, a D8 camera for the D8 tapes, and a good capture card (non-DV) for the analog tapes. Yeah, that's a lot of tools, but you can always resell them when done.

Depending on the number of tapes, we also offer video services, as the DIY method is sometimes not worth the cost and hassle. (We do DV, VHS, VHS-C, Hi8, but not D8.)

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  #22  
08-17-2015, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Yeah, don't use the ADVC-300 for sure. If you insist on DV conversion, then the ADVC-50/55 or 100/110 is better.

You need a DV camera for the DV tapes, a D8 camera for the D8 tapes, and a good capture card (non-DV) for the analog tapes. Yeah, that's a lot of tools, but you can always resell them when done.

Depending on the number of tapes, we also offer video services, as the DIY method is sometimes not worth the cost and hassle. (We do DV, VHS, VHS-C, Hi8, but not D8.)
Alright, I have been looking into capturing to huffyuv. So are you saying that the better thing to do is use a AIW + TBC for capture? Like I said, I dont NEED DV, just looking for a best quality capture and a good workflow. (thats the only reason I was biasing firewire)

Isn't svideo better? I don't know if the TRV has Svideo in. (or if many other cameras do)

So now the better method is to possible do this:

ProSVHS Deck->line TBC->full frame TBC-> Svideo -> AIW card?

DV/D8 = use firewire
VHS/VHS-C = Line TBC, FullFrame TBC, AIW card?

Last edited by ShadowChaos; 08-17-2015 at 02:44 PM.
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  #23  
08-17-2015, 05:32 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
Alright, I have been looking into capturing to huffyuv. So are you saying that the better thing to do is use a AIW + TBC for capture?
The AIW + TBC is for analog capture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
Like I said, I dont NEED DV, just looking for a best quality capture and a good workflow. (thats the only reason I was biasing firewire)
You seem to be thinking that anaolog-to-DV is somehow superior than analog to lossless. Not so. Analog capture devices and lossless media are for analog sources. Firewire is for DV.

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Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
Isn't svideo better?
For analog, yes.

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Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
I don't know if the TRV has Svideo in. (or if many other cameras do)
What do you need with analog s-video input on the TRV? Whats the TRV for ? (so many formats mentioned here, I think I lost track!).
s-video isn't used for Firewire.

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Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
So now the better method is to possible do this:

ProSVHS Deck->line TBC->full frame TBC-> Svideo -> AIW card?

DV/D8 = use firewire
VHS/VHS-C = Line TBC, FullFrame TBC, AIW card?
I'm not sure I follow that breakdown. It works like this:

DV/D8 = use firewire.

VHS-C needs a VHS-C player. Sometimes an adapter works in SVHS machines, but it's a crap shoot. If you can't get a VHS-C player, try digitalfaq's services for a capture to lossless media. It'll likely be quicker, easier, and even cheaper than looking for a VHS-C player, most of which hardly work any more.

VHS-> ProSVHS deck w/built-in line tbc -> s-video out -> frame tbc -> AIW -> lossless media.

Note that Pro/high-end SVHS players have built-in line TBCs and s-video output. If your tapes were created with 6-hour or 4-hour recording speeds, you'll need a Panasonic player. JVC never gave much support to slow-speed tape. If a built-in tbc player isn't available, get the cleanest, well-maintained player you can find and use a Panasonic ES10 or ES15 for a line tbc pass-thru device -- not quite the power of built-ins, but still effective, and pass-thru units have some level of frame sync at work. Better than nothing. In fact, a lot better than nothing. A forum thread testing pass-thru's that's been going for 5 years now: http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...hat-do-you-use. Plenty of commentary there, and test shots to demonstrate what a line tbc does and why you need it. That thread also has a 4x slow-mo blowup to demonstrate the effect of no tbc - vs - tbc on: http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...=1#post1882662.

Last edited by sanlyn; 08-17-2015 at 05:56 PM.
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  #24  
08-21-2015, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The AIW + TBC is for analog capture.

VHS-C needs a VHS-C player.....

VHS-> ProSVHS deck w/built-in line tbc -> s-video out -> frame tbc -> AIW -> lossless media.

Note that Pro/high-end SVHS players have built-in line TBCs .........[/url].
Hey thanks for the reply, sorry about the confusion. I will start numbering my question to aid with that.

1. Thanks to you guys I belive my question around DV/Hi8/D8 are done. I will simply use firewire for that. (still best right?) For the HI8 tapes, just use a D8 Camcorder and should be good to go.
SO I am going to try to get a higher end Sony TRV series to deal with Hi8/Digital8 tapes. (again open to improvement)

2. Now I am focusing on my VHS and VHS-C cassettes. I see the recommendation for a Panasonic player (I have slower tapes..) I have money to invest in this.. So please commend good VCRS for capturing VHS/Svhs/vhsc tapes. I am also going to buy a AIW card and a TBC device. Should I get a VCR with built in TBC and use an external box too?
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  #25  
08-22-2015, 02:23 AM
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So please commend good VCRS for capturing VHS/Svhs/vhsc tapes.
Quote:
I have slower tapes.
My condolences...slower tapes

for slow tapes I put on Panasonic NV V8000.
Do I need a third device, simultaneously, I take a Panasonic AG4700 and an S-VHS-C adapter.
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  #26  
08-22-2015, 12:22 PM
ShadowChaos ShadowChaos is offline
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My condolences...slower tapes
I was young, didn't know any better, I thought SLP would just give more recording time

Is there any particular reason you like those models? Are they just the ones you have or do they have amazing quality or a special feature?
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  #27  
08-22-2015, 01:10 PM
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Is there any particular reason you like those models?
Yes, of course I have 2 Panasonic NV-V8000.
But these are models for standard PAL + LP [Long play]
Possible that there is this Panasonic also in NTSC format.
The larger setter here JVC BR-S-522 + 822 can indeed without adapter S-VHS-C but only play in SP [Standard]

VHS-C tapes with NTSC SLP I've never seen here.
Since I had a consumer playback devices of SP + LP + SLP play can access.

The quality in SLP but is very bad sein.Ich've got shots of customers on VHS-C in LP ... What I get tears in my eyes.
Too bad ... would fond memories.

www.ww-consulting.ch
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  #28  
08-22-2015, 05:04 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
1. Thanks to you guys I belive my question around DV/Hi8/D8 are done. I will simply use firewire for that. (still best right?) For the HI8 tapes, just use a D8 Camcorder and should be good to go.
SO I am going to try to get a higher end Sony TRV series to deal with Hi8/Digital8 tapes. (again open to improvement)
Those will be fine, but you miss the point about the Hi8. Hi8 is analog, not digital. D8 cameras output DV, not lossless. So if you have no other way to play those Hi8's, you have to live with the way DV encodes noisy analog. Lacking a Hi8 player, you can have those tapes capped losslessly using a pro service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
2. Now I am focusing on my VHS and VHS-C cassettes. I see the recommendation for a Panasonic player (I have slower tapes..) I have money to invest in this.. So please commend good VCRS for capturing VHS/Svhs/vhsc tapes. I am also going to buy a AIW card and a TBC device. Should I get a VCR with built in TBC and use an external box too?
TBC's have been covered, too. tbc VCR's have line-level tbc's. Outboard tbc's are frame-level tbc's. Each handle different analog playback problems.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldwingfahrer View Post
My condolences...slower tapes

for slow tapes I put on Panasonic NV V8000.
Do I need a third device, simultaneously, I take a Panasonic AG4700 and an S-VHS-C adapter.
I was young, didn't know any better, I thought SLP would just give more recording time

Is there any particular reason you like those models? Are they just the ones you have or do they have amazing quality or a special feature?
Those are PAL Panasonic models.

I had a ton of EP and SLP tapes from 25 years back (now I'm down to maybe 1/4 ton, LOL!). The first time I used a high-end JVC on those tapes, I knew I was in trouble in the first minute of capture. Since then I collected or used a few Pannies that gave far more workable results with EP:
- The AG-1980, works magic with many tapes, quirky with some.
- AG-5710, twin of the 1980 with no tuner, same results. Borrowed.
- AG-1970 (weaker tbc, hardly any dnr), noisy but tracks tapes others can't handle. Rugged. Borrowed. I've been thinking of getting a rebuild, but I don't have so many old tapes now.
- PV-S4570 and PV-S4670, both SVHS Dynamorphous from 1995-96, rebuilt, no tbc but some minimal noise reduction, no over sharpening, excellent tracking), ekes out detail from really crappy noisy tapes that dnr machines often over filter.
- PV-4566 circa 1995 (no s-video, but plays like the other '95-'96 guys), somehow manages to play tapes smoothly that were bruised/damaged earlier by JVC players.
- Still have a SONY SLV-585HF circa 1990, a costly rebuild, great for EP tapes originally recorded on it. Made in the era when premium VCR's were built like tanks. SONY never made a better player. Each new SONY after that got worse.

I went thru several non-AG Pannies from the later 90's and a couple from 2000-2001. Don't bother. Except for high-end VCR's, everything made after 1996 went downhill. By 2000 they were useless junk.

A used Panasonic ES10 or ES15 and sometimes a Toshiba RD-XS34 are used for line-tbc/frame-sync pass-thru for VCR's with no tbc. Their tbc's aren't quite as powerful as bullt-in's but they beat a cheap or defective tbc every time, have decent y/c comb filters for composite input, and they don't tie me down to any single player.

I have used high-end JVC's on SP tapes. Too bad they didn't last very long, but I ran out of old SP tapes anyway.

The post-processing tools you'll need for lossless and DV are Avisynth, Virtualdub, and patience. All free.

I captured VHS to DV once. Never again. A nightmare to clean.
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  #29  
08-25-2015, 12:53 AM
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Those will be fine, but you miss the point about the Hi8. Hi8 is analog, not digital. D8 cameras output DV, not lossless. So if you have no other way to play those Hi8's, you have to live with the way DV encodes noisy analog. Lacking a Hi8 player, you can have those tapes capped losslessly using a pro service.
I captured VHS to DV once. Never again. A nightmare to clean.
Great info, thanks! Looking into buying a AG-1980
So I should capture the Hi8 and digital 8 using a similar method as the VHS tapes? (using a AIW capture off S-video to lossless)

I only need a TBC (player or external box or both) when using VHS/VHS-c, correct?
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  #30  
08-25-2015, 01:48 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
Great info, thanks! Looking into buying a AG-1980
So I should capture the Hi8 and digital 8 using a similar method as the VHS tapes? (using a AIW capture off S-video to lossless)
Don't confuse us by using the wrong terms, LOL!. Again, just to be sure:

-VHS is analog. Capture analog with devices designed for analog source capture to digital media, preferably using an AIW capture or ATI USB off S-video to lossless huffyuv or Lagarith YUY2.

-Digital 8 is already in DV format. DV isn't captured. It's copied 1:1 via Firewire to the same DV format (which is lossy, but not as much as some other codecs). DV devices are designed for direct transfer of DV source to DV files. Many DV cameras have onboard tbc's.

- Hi8. Here you have a slight problem. Hi8 is analog, not DV. Some DV cameras can play analog tape, but they output lossy DV. Analog -> DV = not the friendliest combination, difficult to clean compression artifacts and buzzy edges. But it can be done, especially if you have no other choice for Hi8 except having a pro shop cap to lossless for you.

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Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
I only need a TBC (player or external box or both) when using VHS/VHS-c, correct?
You will always need a line-level tbc for analog sources, either built-in or in a pass-thru device. You'll almost always need an external frame tbc as well. You will find oddball tapes that don't behave well with both tbc's in circuit, and tapes that don't play nice if either tbc is missing. Take it one tape at a time.
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  #31  
08-25-2015, 04:37 AM
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Many DV cameras have onboard tbc's.
few D8 camera has onboard TBC.
To play V8 + Hi8 necessarily from CVBS and S-Video output, for example to a Pana DMR ES10 / 15

Here is a small selection ... ... Digital 8
-------------------
Supplement _
why the picture is displayed after upload as small as you can see nothing, not even with a magnifying glass.


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  #32  
08-26-2015, 11:21 PM
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Don't confuse us by using the wrong terms, LOL!. Again, just to be sure:
time.
Ah sorry, I am not confusing them, I am just not writing very clearly, and talking about multiple formats..
what I am trying to say is since capturing Hi8>DV is not an ideal process, for HI8 should I use a method similar to the VHS capture process? Using the AIW card?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldwingfahrer View Post
few D8 camera has onboard TBC.
To play V8 + Hi8 necessarily from CVBS and S-Video output, for example to a Pana DMR ES10 / 15

Here is a small selection ... ... Digital 8
-------------------
Supplement _
why the picture is displayed after upload as small as you can see nothing, not even with a magnifying glass.
Thanks!

My Sony TRV-840 arrived today! its seems like a very nice camera, it also seems to have DNR and TBC built in.
I orders a AIW card, the ATI All-In-Wonder X1900, comes with the breakout cable and everything

$30 for the ATI All-In-Wonder X1900 and 100 for the trv840.
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  #33  
08-27-2015, 07:37 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Ah sorry, I am not confusing them, I am just not writing very clearly, and talking about multiple formats..
what I am trying to say is since capturing Hi8>DV is not an ideal process, for HI8 should I use a method similar to the VHS capture process? Using the AIW card?
Yes. If you can find a player. If not, send it to digitalfaq's shop for a losssless capture. Otherwise, hi8->DV is your last choice.
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  #34  
08-29-2015, 08:10 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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...or example with the 110 you don't need an external power supply because it can be powered from the firewire cable.
However, be aware that some firewire connections do not provide sufficiently robust power output via the 6-pin connector to reliably power the ADVC55/110/100. In those cases using an external power adapter is necessary. (This was a flaw in the IEEE1394 spec implementation.)

The Sony D8 Walkmen (e.g., GV-D200) provide 8mm/Hi8 and D8 playback, s-video and IEEE1394 output, LANC control, and offer a selectable internal TBC and DNR for Hi8/8mm tape playback. The down side is they tend to be harder to find and more expensive than old Hi8/8mm camcorders.

Consumer capture gear, and VCR's with analog inputs sold in the USA (and likely most other places) are designed to respect Macrovision copy protection on the analog input as a condition of sale. On VHS/S-VHS gear it messes with the recorders ADC. On 8mm/Hi8 and digital gear the Macrovision signal is detected by special circuits rather than relying on the built-in AGC. As a rule the Canopus gear respects Macrovision, although it is possible that some early production models did not.

DV is what it is, the best format available for consumer/prosumer initial acquisition, linear editing, and non-linear editing on modest power computer systems in the 1990s. Back then the alternatives were multi-generational S-VHS or Hi8, and the quality went south in a hurry. Today things are a lot different.

The bottom line for capture and restoration of old analog material is one needs to decide how good is good enough, and how much time and treasure one is willing to invest in the process. We need to satisfy the customer and and stay within budget. In many cases we are the customer and that gives more freedom to optimize, moving in the direction of perfect from good enough.

Joe and Jane Six-pack are often elated it they can get a copy of their SLP VHS home video dumped on to a DVD they can watch once again. A simple real time process like AG-1980 -> TBC -> Proc Amp -> DVD recorder will likely be substantially better than what they see trying to play that tape directly to their TV using the $49 VCR they have left over from the 1990s.
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  #35  
09-06-2015, 12:14 PM
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Thanks for the info, everyone.
I have a few more piece of equipment to acquire, Im build my "Ultimate Video capture XP machine" now haha. It is what I will use the AIW card in. I just need to get a mainboard and a cpu. I am also still hunting for a good vcr.

Can you tell me, how necessary is the Proc Amp?

Thanks
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  #36  
09-06-2015, 03:46 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
Can you tell me, how necessary is the Proc Amp?
If you're capoturing tape to lossless media using VirtuaLDub, you don't need a proc amp. VDub can hook into your capture driver's proc amp controls. Basically you need brightness and contrast adjustments to keep your incoming signal within safe video levels. Usually you won't use Tint controls (VHS changes color balance every few seconds, so that's a waste of time during capture). You might also need a sharpness control, not to sdharpen but to slightly soften oversharpened incoming video. Don't try to make VHS sharper during capture -- all you're sharpening is noise, making it look worse and impossible to clean later.

If using Firewire for DV sources, you'll have to depend on your capture setup's proc amp controls, if available. If you're going from DV to DV, you're making a 1:1 copy anyway and might not need level adjustments. It's been too long since I used DV, so those who've been transferring DV all these years can help you with that. I don't even remember how I did it (Remember Win98?).

If recording to a DVD recorder, you have no way to control invalid video levels except thru a proc amp. Don't mislead yourself into thinking that a cheapo new or used prov amp from BestBuy/Walmart will do. The vast number of complaints about those budgets jobs over the years has populated many old forum threads. The most popular, successful, and clean working proc amps over the years were the SignVideo PA-100 and Elite Video BVP-4. Even used, we're not talking cheap but you never know what you'll find on the 'net. These are analog devices. TGrantPhoto rebuilds and resells these units, usually PA-100's. The inability to control input levels is just one of the reasons why direct-to-DVD and many VHS->DV capture schemes are not recommended.
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  #37  
09-07-2015, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
send it to digitalfaq's shop for a losssless capture.
We love Hi8 tapes, because they always turn out beautiful when run through our setup here.

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  #38  
09-09-2015, 03:51 PM
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......

Awesome! yeah I remeber 98 haha. Also, not going to dvd, I will be using my AIW to goto something losless like huffyuv/etc...

I ordered my TBC the otherday, it set me back 200 but I got the TBC-1000 by datavideo, So there is that at least.

I'm still working on the pc build, I got a lga775 board, ASUS P5W DH Deluxe. It looks pretty solid, and it is the last piece I needed to complete the pc.

Now the final piece (or pieces..) or equipment I need would be a good VCR. I think I am going to hold out for the AG-1980, or possibly a JVC HR-S9800U.

The project is slowly coming together!
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  #39  
09-27-2015, 12:10 PM
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So now that my set up is almost complete, I have started trying out captures.

TRV840 (svid)> tbc-1000(svid)> AIW x1900

Sometimes the capture works ok sometimes not.. all the videos have a loud audio hiss, and distortion.

However none of these problems are present while I am watching the video being capture, on the cameras LCD or on the PC screen, it looks and sounds great! but when I finish capturing and watch the video file it has lots of problems...
I suspect the distortion might be from the TBC...


(I will try to upload a sample clip in a bit...)


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