Quantcast Analog capture to digital has bad results! - digitalFAQ Forum
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10-07-2015, 11:40 AM
vbendezu vbendezu is offline
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Good Afternoon, I have over 200 8mm analog tapes that I would like to transfer (capture) into digital format on an external Hard Drive. I purchased a Pinnacle Dazzle and software and it was horrible. Created a ticket with the support group, sent them the diagnostics of the computer and although my computer is quite new, they could not pinpoint the problem. I returned the item to Best Buy.

I purchased the Elgato Video Capture card and started transferring from my Canon Camcorder through the capture card to my external drive. Colors were clear and no out of sync with the audio. But there are quite a few instances of Diagonal and horizontal lines running through the capture. My view finder on the tape does not show any distortion, nor when I hook it up directly to the Tv and play it back. It is not always at the same point in the tape, but does seem to occur more often when the camera was moving, like walking, putting on tripod, any action or just panning too quickly. I have been back and forth with Elgato Support and they are suggesting the Elgato Game Capture because instead of using the Windows converting (Encoding?) system, the Game Capture does it BEFORE it gets to the computer. I am waiting for it to arrive on Saturday to see if it clears up the problem.

While waiting several friends have mentioned that I should transfer directly from the Camcorder to the DVD, that since it would NOT go through a conversion, it would not pick up any distortion and create a better image on a DVD. And that particular DVD can be converted into Mpeg4 or other file types. I have never done this, but was asking for help if the new ElGato does not work. I do not want to have to purchase a stand alone DVD recorder for this and find out it does not work. I am under the impression that if I can view my tapes perfectly on the TV, why does it add all those lines and jerky screens when transferring. Will it do it when I go to DVD as well?

Any help would be appreciated, I am at the end of my rope, tape!
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  #2  
10-07-2015, 01:01 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I don't know of anyone here who recommend Pinnacle software. For anything.
I don't know of anyone here who recommend Windows Media for encoding, either.

That said, what people usually get with Elgato Game Capture and analog tape input is a soft, lossy encoded image with line twitter, jitter, bad audio sync, and other problems. 8mm analog tape is best captured with an analog capture device to lossless digital media on a PC. Apparently you have neither the knowledge nor the hardware for doing it properly. And 200 tapes, captured and processed properly, will find you in the grave before the work is done.

You can capture to DVD using high bitrates for better quality, although you have no control over invalid video levels or other important matters, but that's the way many people do it. Now the question is, why convert to mpeg4? You don't "convert" DVD to MPEG4, you re-encode. Both formats are lossy in nature, meaning that each time you re-encode a digital video you lose more and more data. The losses cannot be recovered. If you're of a mind that re-encoding DVD to MPEG4/h264 will make the video look like HD, it won't. It will just look like VHS captured to lossy media and lossy encoded again. Why not just leave the DVD recording as DVD? There's nothing wrong with MPEG2. It's even used for BluRay and for the TV broadcasts you watch, including HD.

If you plan to make any modifications to your captures, including simple cut and join edits, keep in mind that DVD and MPEG4 are final delivery formats. They are designed for playback, not for additional processing. You can cut up the videos if you wish, but you won't like the results unless you use smart-rendering apps that can do it without more re-encoding loss.

This forum has thousands of posts, many dozens of them during the past few weeks or days, concerning analog to digital capture. You might want to browse some of the more recent posts to see what's involved. Otherwise, there's the old digital capture guides here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video.htm. Some of the info there is being updated and a lot of the hardware has been replaced with newer stuff, but the principles of good analog to digital transfer haven't changed.
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10-07-2015, 02:27 PM
vbendezu vbendezu is offline
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Sanlyn, I thank you for your help. You have helped a great deal. I am totally inexperienced in these matters, and took the advice of the ElGato Capture from a friend who actually captures videos and audio recordings with a large company. Maybe she felt it was the easiest for me to understand, hook up and away I would go. I have captured 15 tapes already using the ElGato Video Capture, and as I said in my post, it was picking up what the Support Dept called "distortion on the actual tape. I attached a few short clips of the results and they are the ones who is sending the ElGato Game capture, because of the "I guess Encoding" is done in the actual device rather than on the Windows side.

I have lost a dear loved one in my family recently, a young man of whom his family has absolutely no videos of his growing up years. I was the picture taker and the movie maker. Yes, very simple, Just a mom who wanted to record family vacations and special events. I am not, what-so-ever looking for perfection. The reason I was asking about the MPEG-4 is because that is what the Elgato is converting it to. I made sure that the videos would play on my computer and on my Blu Ray, and it did, so I has completely content with the device, until the "horizontal lines and distortion" started making the actual video worth crying over. And to see it record to DVD without that distortion is what prompted me to ask for advice.

Reasoning for computer files, what to upload to DropBox so other family members could copy the files and have at their hands - their family videos and Birthday celebrations and such. I am perfectly content with watching on DVD at my home, but would have to reproduce each DVD should family and friends want a copy. OF which, I am getting calls all the time as to when I will have some ready. I was trying to figure out a way to play them ONCE and ONCE only through the camcorder, not to disturb the quality any further, and to do it with the best results I could receive, again, you are right, with MY skill set, I might be reaching for the stars.

I guess I am even willing to settle for the DVD's. My husband is leaning toward quality for OUR family rather than my way of thinking, to be able to share.

There is no way that I am interested in editing anything, color content, labels, sounds etc . . . no clipping and cutting at all. I have successfully captured from my camcorder, stopping the capture and labeling those shorter instances with the event happening, and restart the camcorder to another file with another name on my external drive. I took many events on ONE 8mm Tape. And again, without the knowledge, I have no idea if I can start and stop in transferring to DVD, or if I am subject to letting the entire tape fill the DVD.

I appreciate your help, Sorry for my innocence with this forum, Maybe there is one for beginners.

Thank you again.
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  #4  
10-07-2015, 03:13 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Quote:
I purchased a Pinnacle Dazzle and software and it was horrible. Created a ticket with the support group, sent them the diagnostics of the computer and although my computer is quite new, they could not pinpoint the problem. I returned the item to Best Buy.
Everybody here will confirm that was a bad device, so you made the right move.

Quote:
But there are quite a few instances of Diagonal and horizontal lines running through the capture. My view finder on the tape does not show any distortion, nor when I hook it up directly to the Tv and play it back. It is not always at the same point in the tape, but does seem to occur more often when the camera was moving, like walking, putting on tripod, any action or just panning too quickly.
It sounds like you were simply seeing interlacing. Look at these:
- http://www.digitalFAQ.com/guides/vid...ifferences.htm
- http://www.digitalFAQ.com/guides/vid...interlaced.htm

Quote:
they are suggesting the Elgato Game Capture because
Ignore them. That was terrible advice.

Quote:
While waiting several friends have mentioned that I should transfer directly from the Camcorder to the DVD, that since it would NOT go through a conversion,
Your friends are wrong. All video is converted. A DVD is MPEG-2 compression.

Quote:
it would not pick up any distortion and create a better image on a DVD.
That's not necessarily true. Some recorders can make better-than-the-original-tape DVDs, but those are rare. Distortions are largely in the playback camera/VCR anyway. It's why TBCs are suggested.

Quote:
And that particular DVD can be converted into Mpeg4 or other file types.
A "DVD" (DVD-Video formatted video disc) is MPEG-2. It can be ripped/extracted on a computer, and encoded to whatever you want. For example, an H.264 compressed video in an MP4 (MPEG-4) wrapper.

Quote:
I do not want to have to purchase a stand alone DVD recorder for this and find out it does not work.
A DVD recorder is not a magic box. A bad tape will look equally as bad on a DVD recorder as it will on a capture card.

Quote:
I am under the impression that if I can view my tapes perfectly on the TV, why does it add all those lines and jerky screens when transferring.
TVs made allowances for bad signals. Digital capturing equipment does not. The original signal needs to be clean. Dirty signals must be filtered with TBCs and better playback cameras/VCRs.

Quote:
I attached a few short clips
Nothing was attached to your posts.

Quote:
I have lost a dear loved one in my family recently, a young man of whom his family has absolutely no videos of his growing up years.
We deal with that a lot. Have you considered simply pay a service (hint: us) for the few tapes that really matter? Maybe you don't need us to do all 200, but certainly a dozen or two may be more precious than others?

Quote:
The reason I was asking about the MPEG-4 is because that is what the Elgato is converting it to.
MPEG-4 capturing is not just "not perfect", but outright terrible.

Quote:
Reasoning for computer files, what to upload to DropBox so other family members could copy the files and have at their hands - their family videos and Birthday celebrations and such. I am perfectly content with watching on DVD at my home, but would have to reproduce each DVD should family and friends want a copy.
Make DVDs, rip as ISO disc images, upload the ISO to Dropbox. Skip the degraded MPEG-4.

Quote:
I guess I am even willing to settle for the DVD's. My husband is leaning toward quality for OUR family rather than my way of thinking, to be able to share.
For our family, I capture everything as high-bitrate 15mpbs MPEG-2 (Blu-ray spec) with an ATI AIW card. Anything that needs to be shared is quickly downconverted to MP4 or authored DVD ISO for sharing. I mail discs, and I also use Dropbox.

Quote:
I have no idea if I can start and stop in transferring to DVD, or if I am subject to letting the entire tape fill the DVD.
Editing is done on a computer. Everything is always captured in one pass, and then chopped up later.

Quote:
Sorry for my innocence with this forum, Maybe there is one for beginners.
This forum is for newbies, professionals, and everybody in between (hobbyists).

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10-07-2015, 03:53 PM
vbendezu vbendezu is offline
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lordsmurf, from reading many posts, it seems you are a legend. Saying that, I can honestly tell you that I appreciate the advice and the critique of my post. To actually address the smaller issues that might make you think you are coloring with crayons again, from a Mother's perspective, Thank you for your patience.

I have a funny feeling that once I receive the ElGato Game Capture on Saturday, hook it up, download software, and plug in my devices, that it will become immediately clear of what you are saying. It is just not he best format for the files to be converted to. Of course, I thought the higher the number behind the MPEG label, meant that this was the most recent and upgraded file type. I have a thing or two to learn, much more, but not enough time.

I will be reading some reviews and other sites as well as this one, on which DVD recorders might be my best bet. Saying that, it has to be a bit simple in manner and understanding. I have recorded several events on one 8mm tape. I do not wish to record the entire tape to the DVD unless there is a way that I can separate them later and put them into individual files. My in-laws do not need to see my Christmas celebration with my family for an entire day, when all they want is the EVE when we were with them. That was the ease I guess I experienced with the capture card. Being able to stop the Camcorder, clip any overrun, and save it to the external drive under the exact name of the event.

The only thing I think I would be looking for was sincere advice on which way to go. Get another capture device that records in a different MPEG file type and go directly to the computer - and possibly risk it picking up distortion again . . . or just to consider it not a viable option for the age and condition my 20 year old tapes are in.

My brother recorded from my camcorder to a DVD player over 10 years ago, my son's wrestling years in high school and college. I loaded that into my computer and of course my WIndows media player did not recognize the file type, it was VOB. (you mentioned it was MPEG-2.)

I looked it up, and found that I could convert it, and actually did, with Movie Maker which put it into WLMP file type. I have not had the chance to look to see what devices read this, or convert it to digital, I am assuming that it is not digital at this point. I mean, not having it hooked up to any conversion program or device, just hooking the camcorder up to the DVD recorder, I would think it stayed in analog form.

Should I go the DVD route, I guess I will have my "schooling" ahead of me, to learn how to do that successfully, yes, still wanting eventually to have all on my computer in digital format, but with less distortion, and audio sync problems.

Thank you so much, you don't have to answer, I can only imagine how high the demand is for advice from you and staff, I appreciate what you have helped me with so far. Just wish me luck, I have a feeling I'm going to need it.

By the way, what are the rates for a 2 hour Camcorder tape to be converted to digital? Never considered after I heard some stories about cost, and some people saying it was not worth it. Not from my mouth, have no clue about that at all, so don't hold it against me. Maybe I should register for some adult education classes at a night school before attempting and continually playing the same tapes over and over.

Have a great week and weekend.
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  #6  
10-07-2015, 03:57 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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To add to lordsmurf's good advice:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vbendezu View Post
Reasoning for computer files, what to upload to DropBox so other family members could copy the files and have at their hands - their family videos and Birthday celebrations and such. I am perfectly content with watching on DVD at my home, but would have to reproduce each DVD should family and friends want a copy.
DVD (MPEG2) can be burned to disc from a DVD recorder. You can use DVD-RW discs if the recorder accepts them, and re-use them. DVD files are then transferred (copied) to a computer for edit/joining. Those files are "computer files", just like any other digital video. There are many smart-rendering editors that can do the trick more efficiently than a DVD recorder, but with more features. TMPGEnc Smart Renderer is a well-regarded smart rendering app that can also handle BluRay/HD and a few other formats. Or if you wish you can use a DVD recorder with a hard drive and do some simple cut/edit in the recorder, burn that to disc as an authored DVD, then make copies of that disc in no time (disc-to-disc copy), no re-recording or encoding involved.

Your burned disc can serve as an archive. While storage systems like Dropbox can be handy, it takes a long time to download complete DVDs (or MPEG4's of the same length, for that matter, but as mentioned the "conversion" is time-consuming and has visible quality costs). Easier to just make a copy of the disc and mail it. Short, single sequences loaded as simple .mpg files download faster, of course. There's plenty of free software around for that kind of work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vbendezu View Post
I will be reading some reviews and other sites as well as this one, on which DVD recorders might be my best bet. Saying that, it has to be a bit simple in manner and understanding.
If you live in North America, the only DVD recorders available today are labeled as Toshiba, Magnavox, or Panasonic, Basically they're all the same machines, made by Funai. I can caution you now that those machines with hard drives can contain a lot of video, but the editing interface -- which does work, basically -- is pure hassle from start to finish. It's easier to use software that copies burned DVD's properly to a PC, and edited there. Much of that software is free, but the paid smart renderers are easier to use and more flexible. Be careful about "editing" NLE's fom various makers. Some of them will not smart-render DVD, and some won't smart-render anything at all. Re-encoding is a no-no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vbendezu View Post
The only thing I think I would be looking for was sincere advice on which way to go. Get another capture device that records in a different MPEG file type and go directly to the computer
Whether you use a recorder or a capture device that encodes to MPEG, video tape has a certain amount of "disturbance" and noise that's inevitable. But you'll get better encoding with a recorder than with a capture card, most of which at the consumer level have poor encoders and are really not very good. THE DVD machines mentioned above are known to be decent recorders, if not quite as good as those from 10 years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vbendezu View Post
My brother recorded from my camcorder to a DVD player over 10 years ago, my son's wrestling years in high school and college. I loaded that into my computer and of course my WIndows media player did not recognize the file type, it was VOB. (you mentioned it was MPEG-2.)
WMP won't play VOB and won't play a lot of other common formats, either. A VOB is a container for MPEG DVD files and is created in the DVD authoring process. Inside, it's just MPEG. You can play VOBs directly in VLC Player (free), MPC-BE (free), and other other PC media players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vbendezu View Post
I looked it up, and found that I could convert it, and actually did, with Movie Maker which put it into WLMP file type.
Pardon my language, but to get right to the point: WMM sucks. You might want to remove the word "convert" from your game plan, as it almost always (99%) involves re-encoding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vbendezu View Post
I have not had the chance to look to see what devices read this, or convert it to digital,I am assuming that it is not digital at this point.
WLMP is digital. Analog video can't exist on a computer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vbendezu View Post
I mean, not having it hooked up to any conversion program or device, just hooking the camcorder up to the DVD recorder, I would think it stayed in analog form.
Analog video can't exist on DVD recorders, either. DVD recorders record DVD. DVD is digital.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vbendezu View Post
Should I go the DVD route, I guess I will have my "schooling" ahead of me, to learn how to do that successfully, yes, still wanting eventually to have all on my computer in digital format, but with less distortion, and audio sync problems.
Without a lot of added learning, you're better off going to a DVD recorder and transferring those files to your PC. You're more likely to have audio sync problems with a capture card than with the DVD recorders mentioned.

You can PM the staff directly from the "Services" menu and discuss captures with them.

Last edited by sanlyn; 10-07-2015 at 04:28 PM.
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10-07-2015, 04:10 PM
vbendezu vbendezu is offline
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I am not sure if the attached clip is Interlacing. From all I read and have seen examples, I have not seen any other person's post including such a distorted video as mine. I did send this to Elgato support, to which they responded they found it in reasonable form of their capture device, that my original source, analog tape, is distorted, and this is the way the capture device interprets those signals. Then offered an exact exchange should the new Game Capture device clear up the issue I have.

Thank you all. I hope you can see the clip I attached, have never been a part of a "forum" before. Yikes, I am in uncharted territories!


Attached Files
File Type: mp4 Test for Elgato Support - 2.mp4 (21.63 MB, 34 downloads)
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10-07-2015, 04:43 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Your Elgato test is field-blend deinterlaced, which can't be repaired and which shows double-image "ghosts" during motion, which won't be very smooth anyway on TV even if you didn't have all the bad frames. Field-blending is a no-no in anybody's book, and it's not real deinterlacing. It smears motion in the background objects, which lose all definition every time something moves, and the bitrate is too low for home-made video with movement, fast camera pans, and jumpy camera motion. It's also the wrong frame size and audio codec if you're thinking about DVD or other authored disc formats.

It's the wrong tool for the job. Get a DVD recorder.

Last edited by sanlyn; 10-07-2015 at 05:00 PM.
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10-07-2015, 05:18 PM
vbendezu vbendezu is offline
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How can I thank each and everyone of you for taking the time. I FINALLY feel like I have the HONEST advice I been so searching for. Whatever time and effort you took to entertain my problems, believe me, my family, friends and I thank you immensely.

I will start looking for the DVD recorder tonight and tomorrow. DO some research, and order one, or go to Best Buy if they are still available there and start my process all over again.

I can start my new adventure even before the ElGato device arrives.

Words cannot express how much I appreciate all the advice and pointing me in the right direction, and of course helping me along with my poor LINGO skills.

And it was complete news to me that a DVD was a digital recording in itself. I only thought that a capture card would do this, Like you already know, Yes, I am a newbie! For so many reasons, just beginning to walk. But all your help is worth it, and maybe one day I will come back with a successful clip of a video you all helped me create.

Have a great week and weekend.
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  #10  
10-07-2015, 05:54 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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I still like coloring with crayons. Smurfs coloring books, to be specific. Vintage ones, from eBay. It's a cheap hobby.

MPEG-4 is just newer, not better. It's also ONLY a wrapper, not a format like MPEG-2. So "MPEG-4" (MP4) is usually H.264 or Xvid/Dvix. It's a distribution format only, and does not play well with interlacing (meaning it terrible for VHS/analog conversions).

Some DVD recorders are not simple. They're so frustrating that you want to smash it with a sledge hammer. And FYI, over the past 20+ years, I've been known to do just that (when the equipment was 100% unsalvageable). Ever throw a VCR off a 2-story house roof? It's quite cathartic.

VOB is MPEG-2 in an authored container for DVD-Video. You need to simple decompile the disc with DVD Decrypter.

Windows Movie Maker will only end badly. Avoid it. (Same for iMovie on Mac.)

Lots of unqualified hacks transfer videos, and in those cases it's certainly not worth it. All they do is hook up a cheap consumer DVD recorder to a cheap consumer VCR. You could have done that yourself. The quality your get back looks like crud compared to professional work, and it's overpriced. For us, a problem-free Video8 or Hi8 tape runs about $12.50 per footage hour. If interested, contact us. We run everything through the kind of professional hardware we discuss here regularly. There's also much to be said for experience. For example, I use to work for large/medium studios.

If you want a simple DVD recorder, look at the "Samsung R120 DVD recorder" (that exact phrase). I see several for under $100 on eBay, without the remote. A separate auction has the remote for $25. The unit is best for XP mode (1-hour mode) discs, okay for SP (2-hour), and uses the LSI Logic chipset. You'll never find anything worth a crap brand new in stores. FYI: All LSI Logic DVD recorders list here: LSI Logic chipset DVD recorders, useful to restore VHS videotape quality
^
^ This advice is mostly for VHS, not Video8 or Hi8. The 8mm-based tape formats don't have chroma errors like VHS did, so LSI is not essential.

But a problem with Hi8 and Video8 is that it loves to drop frames, even with TBC-equipped cameras. You'll need an external frame sync TBC if using a capture card. DVD recorders tend to have a non-TBC frame sync, and would be fine. So even modern new DVD recorders may be fine. But shop Amazon, not Best Buy or Walmart.

The biggest thing about a DVD recorder is to always use 1-hour XP mode, maybe 2-hour SP mode if you can handle degraded quality. Never use anything more. (A few unique models allowed for 3- and 4-hour recording, but that was a decade ago.)

Video takes time to understand. You're just scratching the surface.

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  #11  
10-11-2015, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vbendezu View Post
Good Afternoon, I have over 200 8mm analog tapes that I would like to transfer (capture) into digital format on an external Hard Drive. I purchased a Pinnacle Dazzle and software and it was horrible. Created a ticket with the support group, sent them the diagnostics of the computer and although my computer is quite new, they could not pinpoint the problem. I returned the item to Best Buy.
Any help would be appreciated, I am at the end of my rope, tape!
I did the Dazzle Dance/Return Too! back in 2009 buying into the "EASY transfer" promises. I wonder if the Best Buy people wonder why there are so many Returned/Open Box Pinnacle Dazzles laying around their shelves!!??..anyway, that is what led me to this site,and I'm sure many others!!
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