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09-15-2004, 09:55 AM
mlaviolette mlaviolette is offline
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I just purchased the highly recommended JVC DR-M10S DVD recorder. The first thing I noticed was that it displays the noon time as 0:xx instead of 12:xx. I searched the JVC web site for a firmware upgrade but found none. I then emailed JVC support and several days later they replied, suggesting that I send the unit in for service. I called them and found out that this is a known problem and can be fixed by sending the unit to one of their service centers. I would have to pay the shipping there.

I am very disappointed. Even my Philips DVDR80 had regular free firmware updates, and it is not rated as highly as this JVC unit. I can't believe that JVC would ship units that cannot be corrected in the field, and let such an obvious flaw slip by undetected.

Telephone support could (or would) not tell me what other known problems would be fixed. I will try to email them to get a list, and to complain about having to pay shipping just to get known fixes applied. I doubt if they will care.

I worry that if new problems are found and corrected in the future I will have to pay again to get the fixes.

To add insult to injury I used this unit to record a VHS tape played from my new JVC HR-S9911U and did not notice a great deal of improvement over my Philips DVDR80. There are still some macroblocks.

Before anyone spends money on this unit be aware that you may have to pay to get fixes for known JVC problems that should have been identified before the units left the factory.

If you have fought this battle with JVC and won, please let me know.
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  #2  
09-15-2004, 10:42 AM
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That doesn't sound right at all. I would think there'd be an easy way to change it from military time back to base-12 am/pm time. I've never bothered to set my clock on it, not since the last power outage, but it was 12-based at one point.

If you just bought it, I would just go exchange it.

Firmware updates are overrated. You normally see those for items that are shipped before they're really ready for it. The JVC unit I know was in development for a long time, so it's a safe bet there's really nothing to update. There are many things in a unit that firmware does not control.

At what mode are you still seeing macroblocks? Can you provide an image?



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  #3  
09-15-2004, 11:57 AM
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I bought it at ecost.com, so exchanging it is not an option. I would still have to pay for shipping, plus restocking fee, etc. In any event I could end up with a unit having the same problem...

It's not a question of military time vs 12-base time. 12 noon is 12 noon in either case. It's not 0. And it is not displaying military time. It correctly displays 1:05PM, etc. And the support person found an entry in the JVC database indicating that this is a known problem requiring the unit to be shipped to a service center. So JVC messed up at some point. Perhaps I have an older unit, and yours was fixed before it left JVC.

I recorded in SP mode (2 hrs/DVD). It might be hard for me to capture an image that will show the macroblocks. Once again I only notice the artifacting when playing on my HDTV. The only time I was able to get a clear picture was when I captured with my WinTV PVR 350 and burned with my PC's Sony DRU500A. When I created it that way the picture was clear and free of macroblocks. The JVC unit may produce a slightly better result compared to the Philips, but it's marginal at best.

I'm using 3-foot Monster s-video/av cables from the VCR to the DVD recorder. The tape is the one I have been using to test all along, a regular VHS tape created on a Sharp VCR, SP mode, cable TV program. I used a Maxell DVD-RW.

If you like I could mail you the DVD-RW which you could then keep. In the 2-minute clip I can see artifacts, especially with motion, mostly with dark colors. If you would like me to do that please email me the details.
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  #4  
09-28-2004, 01:44 PM
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I actually meant military time, but off by 12 hours. But to have 0:00 for noon is not good. My unit does not do this. I tested the clock after this post. Works fine.

I think the issue you're having is a limitation of the technology. On a normal tv set, most people can see huge difference between a JVC unit and others, in terms of the clarity and lack of artifacts.

You're experiencing something I also hate: HDTV. While higher resolution sounds nice on paper, it tends to make non-HD source look terrible, even commercial DVDs. The Hauppauge PVR series of hardware MPEG encoder tends to soften the image a bit, which will cover over errors that can be generated when an encoder attempts to hold all detail (like the JVC and others do).

This has been jumped on by the writers of ARCHIE comics quite a few times in years past. I once had a story all set up to scan (and put online with an article covering this very issue), but somebody in my family walked away with the book, and it's now in a pile of ARCHIE'S until I can hunt it down again.




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  #5  
10-03-2004, 02:37 PM
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Just got the unit back from JVC. The clock now displays properly. The comments under "service performed" were "software re-install/update/reset clock and tested." So it looks like this was fixed by a firmware update. Unfortunately you have to pay to send the unit in to get the firmware updated. My unit has a production date of April 2004.

I'll perform some more HDTV testing before I decide whether or not to keep the unit. Maybe with a better source (direct from cable or S-VHS) it will produce a picture that will be artifact-free on a HDTV. Or maybe the new firmware will make a difference. Or I may just have to transfer my old VHS tapes using my Hauppauge WinTV PVR 350 and PC burner. I'll post my results.
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10-05-2004, 11:41 AM
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I'm not sure if the following points are a problem, or if all -R/-RW writers behave the same way:

Whenever I insert a blank TDK or Maxell -RW disc into the JVC DR-M10S, a menu comes up indicating that it will format the disc and asks for the format (VR or video). My Philips DVDR80 +R/+RW writer never did this for blank +RW discs. Is it normal for the JVC unit to do this?

Whenever I finalize a -RW disc on the JVC unit, the operation takes about 12 minutes, even if I only have 3 minutes of recorded material. I tried this a few times with material of varying length, and it always takes about the same amount of time to finalize. My Philips unit took about 2 minutes to finalize a disc. Is this normal?
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  #7  
10-05-2004, 02:38 PM
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DVD+R and DVD+RW solely use the DVD+VR format for video recordings. There is no need to ever finalize the +VR format, though it may be required to maintain edits (though some recorders still cannot make those edits permanent for anything other than it's own playback, not valid on other players). It stores data in VOB files, but do not be fooled, this is not DVD-Video format (though close!).

DVD-R and DVD-RW can use either the standard DVD-Video format (VOB files) or DVD-VR (VRO files) format.

VRO is not real compatible with anything aside from it's own recording unit (or others with VR ability) or editing functions on a PC.

DVD-Video requires the standard "finalize" routine. On a full discs, this is usually 2 minutes on average (1-4 range), just like when you burn on a PC burner. The "safe" area of DVD-Video is a full 1GB of data minimum. A couple minutes will not achieve this. At 1x speed, realtime burn speeds of ANY recorder, 1GB is 1/4th the disc, and thus can take up to 15 minutes to burn dummy data and finalize. Actually, it's probably more like a huge lead-out than dummy info.

When you record a full disc, 4.25GB full on the JVC, it'll take about 45 second to 2-3 minutes to do the leadout. It varies a bit, and for this I have no explanation. A minute or two variance is not that important to me to spend time learning why.

When you put a virgin disc in a recorder, especially a write-once disc, it needs to write data on it. Most recorders do this. Phillips may do this unannounced. I've had quite a few recorders, and they've all formatted virgins, including DVD+VR recorders like the LiteOn and Apex units. The Apex did not tell me, the LiteOn does. A blank disc must have structure (Lead-In, etc) written on it before it can proceed to be used. The JVC takes slightly longer, maybe 1 minute more. Most do it in under 30 seconds.

This is one of the few benefits of DVD+VR. It is a no-finalize format. The problem, however, is that the spec calls for CVBR encoding, which tends to make most DVD+VR units that adhere 100% to the spec give subpar quality output.

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  #8  
10-05-2004, 02:39 PM
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And just to throw one more in here, DVD-RAM is even more stubborn to work with, and can only use DVD-VR format (VRO files).

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  #9  
10-11-2004, 12:49 PM
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Thanks for the detailed explanation. It certainly explains what I am seeing.

Does CVBR apply to a PC burner like the Sony DRU500A? In other words, since my Sony DRU500A PC burner can burn any format, should I expect better quality using a -R/-RW disc instead of a +R/+RW? Or is CVBR only relevant to standalone recorders?

I would use the Hauppauge WinTV application to capture in 2 hour/DVD mode using VBR, then use Ulead DVD Movie Factory also set to 2 hours/DVD to burn it (without re-encoding). So I would be using the same software settings for both + and - formats.
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  #10  
10-11-2004, 07:02 PM
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CVBR refers to the bitrate used by the recordings, so no.
Your Hauppuage method sounds fine.

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