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  #1  
04-22-2016, 09:40 PM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
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Ok, you guys sold me on adding a TBC in-between S-VHS and capture card.. how about for a laserdisc player?

Will the TBC (AVT-8710) still support the resolution/bandwidth/number of lines, like it does for VHS output?

Also, I've seen a wealth of comments about "don't enable the 3D internal comb-filters on the laserdisc players, they're antiquated, let that part be saved for cleanup in the processing stage on the PC. PC based filters will always be light-years better than the onboard comb filtering inside the player"
-What programs/avisynth filters accomplish that? the chromafix plugins, etc. that sanlyn and others like to use?

This should be an "easier" one? (I know I ask weird/difficult questions..hehe)

Last edited by bilbofett; 04-22-2016 at 09:42 PM. Reason: pizza!
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  #2  
04-22-2016, 10:07 PM
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Most TBCs support the full NTSC resolution of analog 720x486. Laserdisc is composite, and only moderately better than VHS, Video8 and Betamax. It's comparable to S-VHS or Hi8. DVD is supported by TBC, although analog capturing DVD is generally stupid.

The 3D comb filter depends on the player. I've never gotten into Laserdisc capture, but I've seen several scenarios:

1. high-dollar Pioneer player with s-video
2. composite out to JVC S-VHS VCR (even the lower-end models), VCR out s-video to capture card -- aka a passthrough
3. straight composite

Most require cleanup in post, like VHS. The better equipment reduces or eliminates dot crawl errors -- just like VHS.

Honestly, technically speaking, Laserdisc is just mildly better VHS on a giant optical platter (CD on steroids). It has it's own issues that make it an imperfect format.

I'm curious what you have to transfer. The main reason that I never got into transfer is because fellow LD owners were beating me to it. I didn't want to reinvent the wheel, and focused on other non-DVD (mostly VHS) titles instead. And later on, we traded our work.

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  #3  
04-22-2016, 10:57 PM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
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Pioneer HLD X9 that has both composite and s-vhs out.
Word is it has phenomenal hardware 3D comb filters, in comparison with any other LD players.
There's opinions to use composite out and disable all NR, and opinions to use the S-video out w/NR enabled.
I'm not sure you covered the TBC portion? I'm a bit slow lately.
I'm capturing irreplaceable not on DVD or bluray commercial movies
If you have any you're looking for, let's work something out. I can also send virgin unprocessed caps too.
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  #4  
04-23-2016, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
I'm capturing irreplaceable not on DVD or bluray commercial movies
And those are... ?

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  #5  
04-23-2016, 01:26 AM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
And those are... ?
PM for your list, or tell me what you're looking for
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  #6  
04-23-2016, 02:00 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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I mostly collect cartoons, some mainstream sci-fi. I'm not looking for anything in particular. I just like to read about what others are doing, see what exists. I already have a few things: Star Wars original trilogy, The Golden Age of Looney Tunes, few others.

Pages like this have always been useful: http://looney.goldenagecartoons.com/...D/laserwb.html

Robotech and Macross are on Laserdisc, but I don't know that any of it matters anymore. I think everything is on DVD and Blu-ray now.

The thing I found interesting was overseas released. Only in the past 15 years did I learn about many of those. For example, the Superman Japanese Laserdisc user to put together scenes for homemade extended cuts.

But no list of all Laserdiscs exists.

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  #7  
04-23-2016, 02:42 PM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I mostly collect cartoons, some mainstream sci-fi. I'm not looking for anything in particular. I just like to read about what others are doing, see what exists. I already have a few things: Star Wars original trilogy, The Golden Age of Looney Tunes, few others.

Pages like this have always been useful: http://looney.goldenagecartoons.com/...D/laserwb.html

Robotech and Macross are on Laserdisc, but I don't know that any of it matters anymore. I think everything is on DVD and Blu-ray now.

The thing I found interesting was overseas released. Only in the past 15 years did I learn about many of those. For example, the Superman Japanese Laserdisc user to put together scenes for homemade extended cuts.

But no list of all Laserdiscs exists.
I've got the SW OT widescreen THX but non-special editions, a few different versions of Bladerunner, Lord of Illusions (now defunct due to a great bluray master), the widescreen version of The Keep (rare), a couple obscure 80s dramas and 90s sexy thrillers/crime dramas no ones ever heard of

Robotech was awesome! I used to have the Rick Hunter mech-jet. Are you team Minmay or Lisa? Invid saga was great. Thanks, I've now got the theme song stuck in my head. They remastered the entire series for DVD, did an excellent job.

Last edited by bilbofett; 04-23-2016 at 02:54 PM. Reason: pizza
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  #8  
04-23-2016, 06:27 PM
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Lisa. Minmei was an obnoxious child in Robotech. But honestly, I didn't like either one as much as I did Miriya and Claudia, or even one of the bridge bunnies. Misa was more likeable in Macross, and Minmay wasn't as obnoxious. Misa was also a bit sexier, and less of an old lady. The English voice actor for Lisa was too old. Lisa was in her late 20s, and the voice actor was in the 30s or 40s, and sounded like a mom or school teacher.

Which Veritech did you have? I probably have it. I have most of the toy line.

Macross was amazing, Southern Cross was blah, and (non-Robotech) Orguss was interesting. That's all the same lineage. Mospeada aka New Gen was the one I liked least, and the Robotech version always bothered me. The story was just downright weird. Seriously, killer/magic flowers? Sentinels was a good read, and a good movie, so too bad it never turned into a series. Shadow Chronicles could have been interesting, but that aborted project was disappointing.

In the Macross timeline, Frontier was awesome. It's 2nd only to the original Macross, either version. Not the best toys, however.

The first Robotech DVD set in 2002 was nice to have, but was made from crappy broadcast masters. The film jumps at all scene changes, which was obnoxious. There have been several remastered versions, where they went back to the film sources. Those were nice.

It's been years since I last watched Robotech and Macross. Perhaps it's time to do it again?

I'm currently re-watching Transformers and Big Bang Theory -- when I have time.

The best Star Wars are the "despecialized" editions. I forget the sources, but it probably includes Blu-ray, Laserdisc, and DVD. There are, of course, unofficial editions. More here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXifjbxZDAM. However, some original flaws honestly needed to be fixed, and some original effects had issues. I've never taken time to compare everything.

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  #9  
04-23-2016, 06:53 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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Its questionable whether investing in a high end player is worth it these days. Comb filters have advanced quite a bit from the Pioneer Hi-Vision player days (JVC SVHS decks have a pretty good one built in). It might actually be best to get a player that outputs raw composite (bypass all on-board processing), have an outbound comb filter and do noise reduction/processing in software.
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  #10  
04-23-2016, 07:01 PM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
have an outbound comb filter and do noise reduction/processing in software.
What do you recommend for an outboard filter? And noise reduction in software?
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  #11  
04-23-2016, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbofett View Post
What do you recommend for an outboard filter? And noise reduction in software?
JVC S-VHS VCR, receiver, etc.

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  #12  
04-23-2016, 07:12 PM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
JVC S-VHS VCR, receiver, etc.
Re: outboard gear, I thought he was talking about a stand-alone comb-filter box I could get

I lost 3 separate auctions to the late model/good 9000 JVCs, and I received a Panasonic 1980p from that "shady guy" this site devoted an entire thread about.

I'm not in the position to buy another VCR right now, but thank you.

Thanks for all the help guys, I appreciate it
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  #13  
04-23-2016, 07:47 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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I think the lower end non-TBC JVC SVHS decks (HR-S5800U for example) have 3D Y/C comb filters on them as well. They usually go for pretty cheap on auction sites. Even a broken high end VCR can do the job as long as the electronics work. Just find a JVC with a busted tape transport.

There were also dedicated comb filters sold back in the day. The Entech/Monster Cable CVSI-1 was one that was popular with the LaserDisc crowd. It commands a pretty penny though. Plus you'll need a capture card that does component capture. Some folks are saying even those aren't worth it anymore as many SVHS VCRs and DVD recorders have comb filters that outperform it.
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  #14  
04-24-2016, 08:59 AM
jbd5010 jbd5010 is offline
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This is a timely thread for me. I just picked up my Pioneer CLD-95 from a gentleman on Craigslist on Friday, and my Dave Clark's Best of Bandstand Laserdiscs arrived yesterday. Dick Clark Productions has never re-released this material on DVD (let alone Blu-Ray). Both volumes are available on VHS, but I got the LD player for a steal (it works great) and will probably re-sell for a profit, so I figured it was worth seeing if I could get just a bit more quality out of the LD versions. I know the 95 isn't one of the "best ever" players, but the 97, 99, X0, X9 etc are all more than I feel like spending.

I've read on VideoHelp and some other LaserDisc enthusiast sites that the Panasonic DMR-ES10 works very well for external comb filtering, and that it has a 3D motion-adaptive comb filter. The CLD-95's comb filter isn't supposed to be anything special so this is what I'm currently testing with.

LS, since I know you're pretty familiar (or you were at one point) with the DMR-ES10, do you think it's a good fit for this application? If I recall correctly, doesn't the video run through the MPEG2 encoder chip before being spit back out? It seems like this might unnecessarily decrease video quality... and since I'm not dealing with VHS tapes suffering from tearing, maybe I should look elsewhere for comb filtering. What do you think? I personally have an AG-1980 and SR-V10U as well, maybe one of these is a better option.

Last... if we do insert a TBC into the signal chain when using a pass-through comb filter, should it go BEFORE the pass through (LD/VHS > TBC > Comb > Capture Device) or AFTER the pass through (LD/VHS > Comb > TBC > Capture Device)?
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  #15  
04-24-2016, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbd5010 View Post
Dave Clark's Best of Bandstand Laserdiscs
Dave?

Quote:
LS, since I know you're pretty familiar (or you were at one point) with the DMR-ES10, do you think it's a good fit for this application? If I recall correctly, doesn't the video run through the MPEG2 encoder chip before being spit back out? It seems like this might unnecessarily decrease video quality... and since I'm not dealing with VHS tapes suffering from tearing, maybe I should look elsewhere for comb filtering. What do you think? I personally have an AG-1980 and SR-V10U as well, maybe one of these is a better option.
It really depends on the timing issues you may see. Laserdisc is analog, and can still run into timing issues that cause wiggles. The ES10 degrades the video (posterizes it), so only use it when passthrough is helping. Yes, it all runs through the LSI chipset, hence reduced chroma noise (not due to the frame sync!).

In general, a JVC S-VHS VCR would give better results, assuming no timing errors.

Quote:
Last... if we do insert a TBC into the signal chain when using a pass-through comb filter, should it go BEFORE the pass through (LD/VHS > TBC > Comb > Capture Device) or AFTER the pass through (LD/VHS > Comb > TBC > Capture Device)?
The ES10 may be fine for comb filter. If not, you'll need to try S-VHS comb before ES10. Sometimes stacking filters between the source VCR and the ES10 nullifies the results, making the ES10 do nothing (aside from posterization).

As NJRoadfan and myself both notes, high-end VCRs not required for mere comb filter. The low-end 3800, for example, works just as well. I've used the 3800 for comb filtering in the past. (Just don't ask me what it was anymore. No idea.)

The AVT-8710 and TBC-100/1000 may also work as comb filter. Not sure. Never tried.

Interesting conversation.

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  #16  
04-24-2016, 10:14 PM
jbd5010 jbd5010 is offline
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Haha. I don't know where "Dave" Clark came from. Hadn't had my cup of coffee yet when I posted.

I'll experiment and comment/post results.
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  #17  
04-24-2016, 10:57 PM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
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Haha. I don't know where "Dave" Clark came from.
Mix of 'The Dave Clark Five' and 'Dick Clark'
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  #18  
05-10-2016, 12:13 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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You should never need to use an external TBC with a properly-functioning LaserDisc player. Every LD player includes a TBC.

Discussions about comb filters are a lot more in-depth on the Originaltrilogy.com and LDDB.com forums. On OT there was a fairly long thread dedicated to comb filter testing; running composite straight from a player to the ATI 750 PCIe card was found to be the best among what was tested. Definitely better than Panasonic's DVD recorders as passthrough.

Lately one of the guys has said that the best-ever chip is the TI TVP5160, but he had to go to extremely esoteric lengths, capturing using the output of an evaluation board. The only actual equipment known to use it is super high-end.
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  #19  
05-10-2016, 12:28 PM
jbd5010 jbd5010 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Lately one of the guys has said that the best-ever chip is the TI TVP5160, but he had to go to extremely esoteric lengths, capturing using the output of an evaluation board. The only actual equipment known to use it is super high-end.
For reference: http://www.ti.com/tool/tvp5160evm

Quote:
The TVP5160EVM evaluation module is used to demonstrate the TVP5160. The TVP5160 is a high performance NTSC/PAL/SECAM 10-bit video decoder that supports 3DYC for NTSC & PAL composite video inputs. It also provides 3DNR support in concurrent or independent operation with 3DYC. Using the TVP5160, the TVP5160EVM converts analog baseband video into digital component data which is then re-encoded with a professional quality video encoder. Supporting new features seen below, the TVP5160 is ideal for all medium to high end video applications. And by using the TVP5160EVM, hardware and software development for video end equipment has never been easier.

3DYC for NTSC & PAL
Concurrent 3DNR operation
Time Base Correction
Progressive inputs (480p/576p)
Specifications:

The TVP5160EVM supports various analog inputs including CVBS, SV, YPbPr and SCART and provides simultaneous CVBS, SV and YPbPr outputs through the encoder. The digital data, ITU-R BT.656 with embedded syncs or ITU-R BT.601 with discrete syncs, and all necessary clocks including SCLK, HSYNC, VSYNC, FID, AVID and GLCO are all made available to testpoints.

The TVP5160EVM is powered with a single 5V supply and all communication is provided using a PC parallel port to emulate I2C. A Windows application called WinVCC4 (Windows Video Control Center) is also provided to allow manipulation of the TVP5160 I2C register settings via a simple GUI.

The TVP5160EVM contents include:

TVP5160 board
Encoder board
Universal 5V power supply
Parallel port cable
CD (software & documentation)
I want to see if TI will let me order one of these to play with.
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  #20  
05-10-2016, 12:30 PM
bilbofett bilbofett is offline
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agree on 99% here with you, except the ATI 650 and 750's have that auto-gain bug, no?
And the 600 clips blacks?
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