Go Back    Forum > Digital Video > Video Project Help > Capture, Record, Transfer

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #21  
08-28-2016, 09:18 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,503
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
A UPS will fix power-related problems at least half the time. Not all the time. Let's see what happens.

If not the wall power, then perhaps its being generated elsewhere -- VCR, computer, etc. I've dealt with my share of power issues in the past 15 years. It's never fun to figure out, but at least you have somebody that can help guide you.

Excellent UPS, I have that exact one for my Skylake build.

I actually use a separate non-PFC 1500 for my video hardware. I try to keep computer power isolated from video power.

It is suggested to leave audio ingest volume at default 50%, and fix it in post-capture as needed. Only in situations where it's really low would you want to increase capture volume. In most cases, correcting in Sound Forge will be equally good, and actually better (because lots of audio clips, at some point, even if briefly).

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: rf99 (08-28-2016)
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #22  
09-01-2016, 01:11 AM
rf99 rf99 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 31
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I actually use a separate non-PFC 1500 for my video hardware. I try to keep computer power isolated from video power.
I was thinking of doing the same, but mainly because AVR is only on the battery backed up outlets... and 5 is not enough for me for both the computer and video equipment together.

Out of curiosity, why do you like to keep the computer equipment on an isolated UPS from the video equipment?

-- merged --

Okay, I now have only the video equipment (VCR and AVT-8710) running on the new UPS. (Not sure why you recommend keeping the computer equipment isolated from the video equipment, but I am going to follow your recommendation and try it like this for now until I get a second UPS for the computer.)

I am still getting very touchy behavior for that waviness/power interference pattern. I wasn't seeing it since my last post, until I moved cables around and reconnected things when setting up the UPS.

However, in the past I have been able to get rid of it by unplugging and replugging in cables.

Moving cables around (separating video from power cables) does not seem to have much of an effect. (Though I can introduce additional interference if I bring other electrical equipment near the video equipment wires. I just am not always able to easily eliminate all interference.)

In fact, up until a few minutes ago, I couldn't get rid of the power interference pattern at all... even after making sure all S-Video connections along the path were secure. (I even disconnected the audio cables, and removed the AVT-8710. I connected the VCR directly to the video card's purple adapter, and the waviness was still there. I tried different S-Video cables, and still no luck.)

Finally, I was able to get rid of the waviness again by simply unplugging the purple adapter from the video card and re-plugging it in. (Thankfully, adding the AVT-8710 and the audio cables back in continued to retain the clean behavior.)

Attached is an AVI of what I'm seeing now. Does this look properly clean to you? There's a very, very slight flicker, but I would guess that's because it's an analog signal?

And, if you think this looks good, hopefully I can maintain it looking like this.

Thanks!

-- merged --

Besides the questions about power interference, I have two more for post-capture and the editing/encoding workflow.

First of all, the captured video definitely looks better than anything I've been able to capture in the past... thanks to all of your help!

Now, I'm on to the editing/encoding.

#1. As a reminder, I plan to stream my edited videos off of an Oppo BDP-103 that supports MP4.

It seems to stream interlaced H.264 just fine. Since this is the case, wouldn't it be preferred to leave the video interlaced and let the Oppo/HDTV handle it, rather than using QTGMC to de-interlace before doing any editing/encoding?

#2. I'd like to use Adobe Premiere Elements for editing. (Trimming some of the frames, merging some captures together, adding subtitles, etc.) Since I'm using PE for that, I'm assuming I'll also use it to encode my MP4 H.264 files (unless you have a better suggestion).

In the past sanlyn has warned about PE having colorspace issues. I am trying to avoid them as much as possible.

Currently, PE does read in my Lagarith YUY2 AVI files just fine.

I am currently creating a project that is based off of their DV Standard NTSC preset (720x480, 29.97 frames/second, 48kHz audio), except that I edit it to set to Upper Field First (which is what my captured AVIs seem to be).

After editing, to encode I am using Publish and Share -> Computer -> AVCHD, and am using a custom preset based off of the MP4 - NTSC DV Widescreen preset, except that again I set the Field Order to Upper, check off Render at Maximum Depth... and I set the H.264 Profile to High, since the Oppo supports that.

However, I end up with a MP4 that has a color space of 4:2:0 instead of 4:2:2. I don't know if this is expected, or if it matters.

My 3.2 GB AVI file is also reduced to 195 KB, which seems pretty small.

Basically, I'm not sure if I'm killing quality here during the encoding.

#3. I noticed that MediaInfo says my AVI had a 3:2 display aspect ratio, but the MP4 is 4:3. GSpot says both are 3:2. I just found this strange that they were reporting different things, and I think that I am misunderstanding something here.

Thank you!


Attached Files
File Type: avi test_power_interference.avi (51.66 MB, 6 downloads)
Reply With Quote
  #23  
09-03-2016, 10:55 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
I've been under the weather lately but manage to cruise by every few days or so, and glad to see you're making progress. Nice work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rf99 View Post
#1. As a reminder, I plan to stream my edited videos off of an Oppo BDP-103 that supports MP4.

It seems to stream interlaced H.264 just fine. Since this is the case, wouldn't it be preferred to leave the video interlaced and let the Oppo/HDTV handle it, rather than using QTGMC to de-interlace before doing any editing/encoding?
OPPOs ae great players, I've used them for years as well as a pricey DENON and can't make up my mind about which I like better. I can see differences in their playback image on a calibrated TV, but you'll never get two dissimialr models to output exactly the same thing. Still, both work better in every respect than typical players. I give OPPO the edge when it comes to motion handling and avoidance of moire or stair stepping with some videos.

The basic rule with interlaced video is that it should remain interlaced. True, there are some analog problems that absolutely require deinterlace or field separation for really tough cleanup needs, but the results should be properly reinterlaced. Denterlacing, like resizing, always has a cost. There's no getting away from it. Deinterlacing requires that interlaced half-height frames be resized to full frames. Those interpolations involve numerical rounding errors and other shortcomings, proper correction for field offsets, chroma offset differences, and other sticky factors. Reinterlacing involves the same shortcomings in reverse. Thus the breakdown and restore is done only when the original problems are worse than decent deinterlace/reinterlace. I know of no NLE of any quality that performs these operations as well as Avisynth and QTGMC, which have gone through years of engineering tweaks to ensure as few errors as possible.

I've seen a ton of pro-vs-con arguments and demos that debate deinterlace issues, as well as telecine issues (most but not all of my captures are telecined video). So far it's my experienbce that originally interlaced video at 60 fields per second plays more smoothly than deinterlaced video at 60 frames per second most of the time. I have to go with one video pro who noted simply that 30i plays that way because the original was created that way -- once the original relationship between interlaced scanlines is altered, something gets lost. I've also seen plenty of motion playback studies showing that a telecined video that has 2 interlaced (pulldown) frames for every 5 at 30i will render motion more smoothly than de-telecined video at 23.976 fps, if for no other reason than the display device itself is running at 60Hz, not 23.976 Hz, so flickery motion at 23.976 is inevitable on a 60Hz display. My final encode of film source video is encoded with telecine flags restored. As for PC monitor display, it's yet another can of worms with various PC media players giving different results.

Your mileage might differ, so I'm in no way debating those issues by adding to tens of thousands of previous posts. I can say without doubt that my OPPO and DENON players and my DENON upscaling/HDMI receiver can handle interlace and telecine better than lesser players, which vary widely in their ability to manage any kind of video. More "typical" players can't handle interlace or rescaling worth a damn, which anyone with two good eyes can confirm.

I'll add here that I don't encode final output from tape caps as mp4 containers. For PC demos in forums it's an efficient way of doing it, but my final encodes are to standard formats: MPEG/DVD or standard definition "regulation" BluRay. My reasoning is that any player from anywhere is designed to handle those formats properly because those formats have strict encoding requirements that generic mp4, mkv, etc., don't enforce. My encodes are MPG or BDMV/M2TS containers encoded to DVD or BluRay spec that I can also use for authoring to disc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rf99 View Post
#2. I'd like to use Adobe Premiere Elements for editing. (Trimming some of the frames, merging some captures together, adding subtitles, etc.) Since I'm using PE for that, I'm assuming I'll also use it to encode my MP4 H.264 files (unless you have a better suggestion).

In the past sanlyn has warned about PE having colorspace issues. I am trying to avoid them as much as possible.
Well, actually, the colorspace cautions aren't mine but from tests by other users. I've tried all the popular NLE's and finally settled on lossless RGB with AfterEffects, converted via Avisyth, but used only when I need an NLE for things like subtitles and whatnot, which I seldom use, or for adavanced color correction, layer work, or Ken Burns type slide shows. I then use Avisyth for conversion back to YV12 for encoding. I think you can probably find better encoders than PE, but it's likely better than some overly picky users claim it is and is certainly adequate at decent bitrates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rf99 View Post
I am currently creating a project that is based off of their DV Standard NTSC preset (720x480, 29.97 frames/second, 48kHz audio), except that I edit it to set to Upper Field First (which is what my captured AVIs seem to be).
Standard consumer DV field order is bottom field first, standard field order for everything else is TFF. So if your originals are TFF, then obviously you should not reverse its field order to BFF. In any case, always stick with the source field order if it's correct to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rf99 View Post
I end up with a MP4 that has a color space of 4:2:0 instead of 4:2:2. I don't know if this is expected, or if it matters.
Standard MPEG and h.264/BluRay/AVCHD encodings are YV12 (4:2:0), just like the stuff you buy at the store and see on your TV. A more complex colorspace is used for a lot of processing, for reasons beyond this discussion. So your final encodes are normal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rf99 View Post
My 3.2 GB AVI file is also reduced to 195 KB, which seems pretty small.
Can't say. More playing time means larger files, higher bitrate means better quality and larger files. Lossy encoding is, well...it's lossy. Maybe that gives you an idea of what lossy means. The encoded version will always be smaller than unencoded, full-frame video. The encodes contain only one or a very few full-sized reference frames for each GOP (Group of Pictures). The other frames contain only the data that changes since the last reference frame. This is called interframe video encoding, where each picture in a GOP is based on other pictures and GOPs that come before and after it. Your Lossless AVIs are made up of complete, self-contained images.

Typically my 1-hour TV show captures come out to 26 to 30GB or so as lossless AVI, but encoded to 720x480 BluRay at 10MBPS Variable Bit Rate come to about 5GB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rf99 View Post
#3. I noticed that MediaInfo says my AVI had a 3:2 display aspect ratio, but the MP4 is 4:3. GSpot says both are 3:2. I just found this strange that they were reporting different things, and I think that I am misunderstanding something here.
Lossless AVi has no display aspect ratio (DAR) flags for playback. Its frame aspect ratio and its playback aspect ratio are the same as its physical ratio, which is 3:2. Your encoded video at 720x480 has a frame size aspect ratio of 3:2 and a DAR flag set for either 4:3 or 16:9. A PAL lossless AVI at 720x576 would show in MediaInfo as a "5:4" aspect ratio because that unencoded AVI has no DAR flag.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: Dirk the Daring (01-25-2017), lordsmurf (09-06-2016), rf99 (09-04-2016)
  #24  
09-03-2016, 01:34 PM
rf99 rf99 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 31
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
I've been under the weather lately but manage to cruise by every few days or so, and glad to see you're making progress. Nice work.
Thanks, Sanlyn! I hope you feel better.

I am definitely making progress. The final products already look so much better now that I understand more what's going on (all thanks to you guys!), and am using better equipment and techniques.

I appreciate all the responses. One thing in particular stood out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Typically my 1-hour TV show captures come out to 26 to 30GB or so as lossless AVI, but encoded to 720x480 BluRay at 10MBPS Variable Bit Rate come to about 5GB.
I think this is where I have room for improvement. I left PE at the default settings of: 1-Pass VBR, Target Bitrate 3Mbps, Maximum Bitrate 6Mbps.

I am still thinking of leaving the final encoding as H.264 mp4 for the time being (since my player can play it, and it gives me an equal testing ground for now.... though, I may take your suggestion to make the final encodings more "portable" for friends and family).

But, it seems like it'd be a good idea to do 2-Pass VBR... and certainly to up the Bitrate. Is 10Mbps the suggested rate? (And would that be both for Target and Maximum?)

I tried that, and though I'm not seeing a noticeable difference in quality in this particular clip, the file size is 3x. (610KB vs 195KB, from the original 3.2GB file.)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
09-03-2016, 03:15 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
A 3000 to 4000 1-pass encode sounds like the usual default for many encoders, but that has always sounded like a default designed for web posting. The standard def BluRay example I gave is for MPEG2 10MBPS target/15Mbps max 2-pass encoding for near-archival SD quality. One could go higher (I believe 15Mbps target is often quoted as "broadcast quality" MPEG). There are other settings in use, including the use of standard-spec GOP (30 frames for fast action sequences most of the time, 60-frame GOPs for talky shows lots of times, but frankly I think smaller GOPs look better every time something moves on my 52" plasma. On the 32-inch LCD the difference is very difficult to see). Audio is Dolby AC3 48KHz at 324kb.

For DVD -- yes, I still use it, as the majority of people I know don't own BluRay players and don't intend to get one -- my limits are about 6500 target and 9000 max MPEG2. The encoders are the old TMPGenc Plus 2.5, TMPGenc Mastering Works, and the HCenc encoder.

I'm also using x264 encoders for h.264 BluRay and AVCHD, with 8MBPS target / 12Mbps max for SD video. These make for pretty good archives, but interlace/telecine and what I call "real" color and detail subtlety don't hold up as well with h.264 and tends to look over filtered. These are BluRay containers for hard drives or disc authoring.

Anything of importance that I have on external drives is backed up on other drives or optical discs. These are personal preferences, compromises between the hungry commercial bitrates by pros on some sites and the bitrate misers on many consumer sites who claim they see no difference between h.264 at 2000kbps and h.264 or MPEG at more generous bitrates. My preferences are used by a great many people who encode for quality over file size, and historically they likely go back to my upbringing in an environment where film was always the primary medium. Frankly my eyes don't agree with flowery claims about low bitrate encoding. But that's just me, I guess. By and large I'm only going to encode once and I can't save every lossless capture, so I go for the optimal encode. I'm one of those stuffy old dunderheads who still thinks film is better than digital and analog audio is more accurate than CD (but how many would get a $2500 turntable for their LP's, and how long ago was it that they saw a fine celluloid print projected onto the giant silver screen?).

Personal preference, and personal history as well, have a lot to do with this archiving business. The going theory among teachers and pros is that the current generation was brought up on low quality mass media, mis-tuned CRT's and factory-preset LCD's, and few know what first class work looks like. There might be something to that, I don't know. I do have a wife who can't stand watching most of the careless video work she sees today, so I guess I'm not alone. I was raised in movie houses and had many relatives with graphic arts and pictorial design backgrounds, so I guess that makes a difference.

Moral: what looks right to you is what you should use. The more you work with visual media hands-on, the more you'll learn and the closer you'll look. It's a natural progression toward getting what you want out of the memories you have on tape.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: rf99 (09-04-2016)
  #26  
09-04-2016, 12:38 AM
rf99 rf99 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 31
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks, Sanlyn! Super-informative, as always!

I would like to try the MPEG2 encoding (via Premiere Elements, since I'm editing in it)... to see how it compares to H.264 MP4, but I'm having trouble trying to find an equivalent to your settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The standard def BluRay example I gave is for MPEG2 10MBPS target/15Mbps max 2-pass encoding for near-archival SD quality. One could go higher (I believe 15Mbps target is often quoted as "broadcast quality" MPEG). There are other settings in use, including the use of standard-spec GOP (30 frames for fast action sequences most of the time, 60-frame GOPs for talky shows lots of times, but frankly I think smaller GOPs look better every time something moves on my 52" plasma. On the 32-inch LCD the difference is very difficult to see). Audio is Dolby AC3 48KHz at 324kb.
#1. For DVD, PE has a NTSC DVD Standard preset for use with the MPEG2-DVD format. I took that and modified it.

Multiplexing is set to DVD. For video, it looks like the Codec is MainConcept MPEG Video. There is a quality slider, which I put at the max of 5 (though interestingly, that doesn't seem to affect file-size).

I select to Render at Maximum Depth, and I went with VBR, 2 pass.

Interestingly, this has Minimum, Target and Maximum bitrates. 9 is the maximum for all three (though I have seen postings that say not to go beyond 8).

For GOP Settings, there is a M Frames (2 through 8) and N Frames (9, 12, 15, 18). Defaults are 3 and 15, which is where I left them.

For audio, there is Dolby Digital Stereo, MPEG and PCM. I went with Dolby Digital, but I'm pretty sure that it's not AC3. Seems to be a limitation of PE. Also, I assume you meant 320kbps and not 324.

#2. For MT2S there's not a whole lot of options. Multiplexing is set to TS. It only does the MainConcept H.264 codec, and is fixed at Profile: Main for 720x480. Can also set a Target and Maximum bitrate, with the maximum being 12. I ended up going with a Target of 10, and a Maximum of 12. That's about all I can set for it.

Audio is once again Dolby Digital Stereo, 320kbps.

#3. I'm not so sure I get all the encoding options in PE that I really need to control (as in your example settings).

Maybe I should export as another format from PE, and then use some other encoding software (like the ones you mentioned). But, I wonder what format to export from PE. Maybe Lagarith AVI again, and then pull it into a proper encoder? (Once again, I'm wary of PE trampling colorspaces and the like during conversions.)

#4. I am still digesting the results, but it seems like the H.264 MP4 has an ever so slight jerkiness about it when there is movement, compared to the MPEG2 and MT2S encodings. It's very slight, and I'll have to sleep on it to see if I'm imagining it or not.

Thank you!!

-- merged --

Followup on #4. (Sorry, can't edit the post anymore.)

I notice that slight jerkiness on the H.264 MP4 only on the more recent encodings that use 2-pass VBR with the 10Mbps target/15 Mbps maximum bitrates.

I don't see the jerkiness on the H.264 MP4 that is 1-pass VBR and a lower bitrate.

The jerkiness is super slight, but I do keep noticing it on the higher quality H.264 MP4.

However, the image quality might still be the best on the 2-pass VBR with the higher bitrate (possibly even a little better than the MPEG2 and MT2S encodings I did... though it's hard for me to get a good frame comparison.)
Reply With Quote
  #27  
09-04-2016, 05:35 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
You know, these posts get a little long when you have to keep taking a break every couple of minutes. Maybe it's my medifcation.

Jerky playback with high-bitrate encodes can be a problem if certain elements are a bit more than a specific PC can handle. The media player can be a problem, too, so when you mention playback problems note whether you mean PC playback or external playback. On any PC I have a love-hate relationship with VLC player, which looks great when it works but goes schizo now and then and forces me to use Media Player Classic, which seems to be one of lordsmurf's favorites.

The best way to get info about what might be happening is to either post a small piece of the encode, or post a sample of the original AVI and let one of us brave readers make an encode to give you some ideas. It could be that your typical NLE won't let you get away with a few things using those presets -- which is one reason why I don't use NLE's for everything. They're just too confining.

PE should be able to save its output as lossless AVI for input into another encoder if you want to use it that way. I do it with AfterEffects and even with TMPGEnc Mastering Works.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: lordsmurf (09-06-2016), rf99 (09-04-2016)
  #28  
09-04-2016, 11:47 AM
rf99 rf99 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 31
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Sorry, sanlyn. I appreciate the help, but please don't feel the need to reply until you're feeling better (which I hope you do soon)!

I was comparing playback on the end-device... the Oppo BDP-103D.

I went ahead and narrowed everything down to a small clip. There is camera motion in the clip, and I still keep thinking there's something a little jerkier (even if it's slight) in the mp4 encodings when played on the Oppo.

First, attached are the following small, uncompressed clips:

1. original-lagarith-avi - direct stream copy via VirtualDub of the original capture
2. exported-lagarith-avi - lagarith export from PE just to see if this is viable to then do the final encoding in other software, if needed. (The only thing done to this clip is that the head noise on the bottom had a "Transform Clip" effect applied to "clip" the noise and replace it with a black background)

And then the following four encodings, done in PE:

1. mp4_vbr2pass-10mbps-15mps - H.264 MP4, VBR 2-pass, Target 10Mbps, Maximum 15Mbps, Profile: High
2. mp4_vbr2pass-3mbps-6mbps - H.264 MP4, VBR 1-pass, Target 3Mbps, Maximum 6Mbps, Profile: High (included only because I originally thought it didn't have the jerkiness of the better quality mp4 clip... but now I think I was wrong)
3. mpeg - MPEG2, VBR 2-pass, Quality 5, Minimum 8Mbps, Target 8Mbps, Maximum 8Mbps, GOP: 3 M Frames, 15 N Frames
(was an attempt to match your suggestion for a high quality DVD)
4. m2t - M2T, VBR 2-pass, Target 10Mbps, Maximum 12Mbps
(was an attempt to match your suggestion for a near-archival quality standard-def blu ray, but I don't think I could get PE to match your settings)
(had to zip this one, because the site wouldn't let me upload a .m2t file)

Audio is Dolby 48KHz at 320kbps... but, I believe PE only let me use AAC for the mp4 encodings.

I'm still not 100% sure I'm seeing additional jerkiness in the mp4's... but I think I am (on the Oppo).

I'm curious as to what you think of the encodings in general, and the uncompressed export from PE.

And, back to the original need... I would think that in an ideal world, my final encoding for my needs would either be a H.264 MP4 or a high quality standard-def DVD mpeg2 or a blu-ray encoding like M2T, so that it could play on more devices. But, obviously my primary concern is to get a high quality final encoding that I can stream to my Oppo.

Thank you!!


Attached Files
File Type: avi original-lagarith-avi.avi (37.95 MB, 2 downloads)
File Type: avi exported-lagarith-avi.avi (37.61 MB, 2 downloads)
File Type: mp4 mp4_vbr2pass-10mbps-15mbps.mp4 (7.47 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: mp4 mp4_vbr1pass-3mbps-6mbps.mp4 (2.41 MB, 4 downloads)
File Type: mpg mpeg.mpg (6.31 MB, 2 downloads)
File Type: zip m2t.zip (7.56 MB, 2 downloads)
Reply With Quote
  #29  
09-04-2016, 06:09 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Thanks for the new samples. Dandy stuff, mostly good points but still a few things to learn from, so I'll take a closer look and post later.

I loaded them into a hard drive on my OPPO and DENON, no shakes or jerks. The camera shake doesn't help, though. One of the mp4's came out to constant bitrate (or so it looks in some software reports) instead of VBR, but that usually won't cause choppy playback. You had, I think, a "minimum" bitrate of 8000 on one of the encodes -- that was the MPG, I believe. While there's no official rule on min. bitrate, for DVD it's usually been quoted as 2000 kbps. Setting a high minimum would waste a lot of data bits and could give some decoders a fit.

I think I see why you wanted to deinterlace. Many consumer cameras just didn't interlace well, so there's aliasing and line twitter now and then. Will give some suggestions on how to handle it.

More later. Good work.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: rf99 (09-04-2016)
  #30  
09-04-2016, 06:48 PM
rf99 rf99 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 31
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Thanks for the new samples. Dandy stuff, mostly good points but still a few things to learn from, so I'll take a closer look and post later.

I loaded them into a hard drive on my OPPO and DENON, no shakes or jerks. The camera shake doesn't help, though. One of the mp4's came out to constant bitrate (or so it looks in some software reports) instead of VBR, but that usually won't cause choppy playback. You had, I think, a "minimum" bitrate of 8000 on one of the encodes -- that was the MPG, I believe. While there's no official rule on min. bitrate, for DVD it's usually been quoted as 2000 kbps. Setting a high minimum would waste a lot of data bits and could give some decoders a fit.

I think I see why you wanted to deinterlace. Many consumer cameras just didn't interlace well, so there's aliasing and line twitter now and then. Will give some suggestions on how to handle it.

More later. Good work.
Thanks, Sanlyn! I was actually watching the full clips today, and noticed that the MP4's are a lot worse than I thought in other portions of the video. I am going to make new samples of some other portions of the clips which show the issues a lot more. I definitely appreciate you looking at these, but might be worth holding off anything further until I post the new samples.

And, thanks again, for the kind words. This has been an adventure, to say the least. =P Thanks to you, lordsmurf and the rest of the forum members for helping me learn my way through this!

-- merged --

Okay, I was able to get some new samples made. These are from another tape of a fashion show.

Both of the H.264 MP4s are particularly bad on my Oppo. As the guys walk by, they almost seem to jump forward on both of the MP4s.

However, I don't see that behavior when watching on my computer (though I'm watching interlaced frames there, and not seeing the full video... so maybe that's why I don't see the issue on the computer).

I am now certain the MP4 encodings I am getting out of PE definitely have this jerkiness/jumpiness in motion when played on the Oppo. All of the clips that I have encoded this way exhibit the problems whenever there is motion.

I do not see any issues with MPEG-2 or M2T. They seem to be a lot smoother overall.

Here are the new sample files:

First, attached are the following small, uncompressed clips:

1. fashion-original-lagarith-avi - direct stream copy via VirtualDub of the original capture
2. fashion-exported-lagarith-avi - lagarith export from PE just to see if this is viable to then do the final encoding in other software, if needed.

And then the following four encodings, done in PE:

1. fashion-mp4_vbr2pass-10mbps-15mps - H.264 MP4, VBR 2-pass, Target 10Mbps, Maximum 15Mbps, Profile: High
2. fashion-mp4_vbr2pass-3mbps-6mbps - H.264 MP4, VBR 1-pass, Target 3Mbps, Maximum 6Mbps, Profile: High (included only because I originally thought it didn't have the jerkiness of the better quality mp4 clip... but it still does)
3. fashion-mpeg2 - MPEG2, VBR 2-pass, Quality 5, Minimum 5Mbps, Target 8Mbps, Maximum 9Mbps, GOP: 3 M Frames, 15 N Frames
(was an attempt to match your suggestion for a high quality DVD. I changed the Minimum and Maximum from my last sample, but couldn't quite bring myself to lower the minimum below 5Mbps, since the whole video is actually pretty small.)
4. fashion-m2t - M2T, VBR 2-pass, Target 10Mbps, Maximum 12Mbps
(was an attempt to match your suggestion for a near-archival quality standard-def blu ray, but I don't think I could get PE to match your settings)
(had to zip this one, because the site wouldn't let me upload a .m2t file)

Audio is Dolby 48KHz at 320kbps... but, I believe PE only let me use AAC for the mp4 encodings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
I think I see why you wanted to deinterlace. Many consumer cameras just didn't interlace well, so there's aliasing and line twitter now and then. Will give some suggestions on how to handle it.
Actually, the only reason I mentioned deinterlacing was because of lordsmurf's original suggestion that I do my final encodings for streaming as deinterlaced H.264 mp4s. But, I wasn't sure the deinterlacing was necessary, since the Oppo plays interlaced H.264 mp4s just fine.

Thank you yet once again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rf99 View Post
Finally, I was able to get rid of the waviness again by simply unplugging the purple adapter from the video card and re-plugging it in. (Thankfully, adding the AVT-8710 and the audio cables back in continued to retain the clean behavior.)

Attached is an AVI of what I'm seeing now. Does this look properly clean to you? There's a very, very slight flicker, but I would guess that's because it's an analog signal?

And, if you think this looks good, hopefully I can maintain it looking like this.

Thanks!
More details as to what I've tried and what I can visibly see as the least amount of interference were in the earlier post #22 above.

But, just wanted to add that I am still seeing that waviness pattern on occasion, and it's unbelievably frustrating trying to get rid of it. I do seem to be able to get rid of it by moving cables around, plugging and unplugging things, and restarting equipment... but, there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason. I think I've just been getting lucky somehow.

I keep thinking something I did was the cure, and the interference seems to disappear for a while. But, often, when I come back the next day (or even hours later), I see some level of interference again.

Eventually I can get rid of it by trying to isolate video cables from each other. I even have a Trifield EMF meter, and have tried to use it to keep equipment away from anything that is generating an electric/magnetic field. But, this whole thing just seems like chance at the moment.


Attached Files
File Type: avi fashion-original-lagarith-avi.avi (64.78 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: avi fashion-exported-lagarith-avi.avi (65.00 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: mp4 fashion-mp4_vbr2pass-10mbps-15mbps.mp4 (12.13 MB, 2 downloads)
File Type: mp4 fashion-mp4_vbr1pass-3mbps-6mbps.mp4 (3.91 MB, 2 downloads)
File Type: mpg fashion-mpeg2.mpg (10.26 MB, 2 downloads)
File Type: zip fashion-m2t.zip (12.31 MB, 2 downloads)
Reply With Quote
  #31  
09-06-2016, 02:04 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rf99 View Post
But, just wanted to add that I am still seeing that waviness pattern on occasion, and it's unbelievably frustrating trying to get rid of it.
Yep, it can be mighty frustrating. The earlier "waviness" post shows what are called hum bars and hum interference -- not always from
some electromechanical radiation but often from poor ground connections (maybe). That could be in any cable or input socket. I had that in an s-video plug some years back and it took weeks to finally isolate it.

Your latest samples from post #33 are quite good, and some nice levels control (for more tweaking if you like, although most people overdo the tweaks). I have some notes for those caps later.

Back to your earlier samples from post #30: Black levels are a bit high. They keep the dark background from clipping, though, and the camera's autogain is obviously a headache. BTW, there are some Avisynth filters that can help work with those fluctuating levels and luma "pumping" but a longer sample with that problem would be needed to help you with that. Sometimes the filters work, sometimes not so well. Depends on the video.

I did some chroma noise correction on the attached samples. There's chroma bleed and shift that discolors the central figure's shirt edges, his arm, and on the face of the smaller figure. I did these in Avisynth with the original YUY2, so thanks for including the original. The A_00_30i_Plus25_DVD.mpg attachment is a plain vanilla MPEG encoded to DVD spec. I should have done more color correction in RGB, but never got around to it.

Sloppy interlacing is a bane of consumer cameras. It can be fixed but at considerable cost. For these samples I deinterlaced with QTGMC using "very fast" presets and the vInverse plugin that do almost zero denoising but helps clean up interlace twitter and combing a bit. There's already too much denoising in the captures, leading to wax-face contouring that you can see mostly in facial contours. But I do understand the sloppy interlace problem, and it's a pain in the eyeballs. Hopefully the interlaced DVD sample eases some of it.

For the other samples I did a little more color correction but wanted to demonstrate that sometimes deinterlacing done correctly is the major fixup for what budget cameras do. Many of my projects required progressive output. The downside is that DVD/BluRay can't be used with 60fps. Dropping fields to get back to 29.97fps is a serious problem with motion, especially with a camera playing acrobat every few frames (my sister uses kamikaze camera moves you wouldn't believe), frame blending is nothing more than permanent damage. Fast motion, and especially jerky cameras, requires more bitrate -- most of it wasted trying to render smooth motion, and denoising is almost impossible.

The BluRay_encodes_m2t.zip attachment is 2 BluRay encodes, one MPEG and one h264, to give you an idea of what TVMW5's MPEG and x264 encoder would do with the originals. Both exhibit posterizing clay face effects, mostly the fault of the original. There are ways around it in Avisynth, but they're a big headache and I didn't have time to go there.

The A-00_60p_Normal_and_DeShaker.zip attachment has three 60p h264 encoded mp4's. Likely they look better because I did more work in Avisynth and VirtualDub, and even added more noise in the form of ordered film grain to help tame contouring and rough gradients. There's an MP4 with the normal frame dimensions, an MP4 that used DeShaker in VirtualDub to help stop the jiggles, and an MP4 with a Normal-vs-DeShaker comparison (left image = Normal, right image = DeShaker).

With all the samples I cleaned up borders and centered the image in Avisynth with this code:
Code:
Crop(4,0,-4,-8).AddBorders(4,4,4,4)
This left the image untouched, cleaned up head switching noise, protected the borders from color correction, and centered the image vertically without touching the core picture. DeShaker, however, moves the frame around so that it loses 6 pixels on each side -- one has to decide whether steadying motion is worth the trouble. I've seen worse, including such bad camera movement that 32 pixels was lost on side borders. With borders keep in mind that even today's HDTV's use overscan unless you disable it.

Just some more ideas and different software. The DVD was encoded with TMPGEnc Plus 2.5 and needs more color work, the others were done with TVMW5 and a little contrast boost with TMPGenc's filters......


Attached Files
File Type: mpg A_00_30i_Plus25_DVD.mpg (4.91 MB, 2 downloads)
File Type: zip BluRay_encodes_m2t.zip (13.02 MB, 0 downloads)
File Type: zip A-00_60p_Normal_and_DeShaker.zip (16.65 MB, 0 downloads)
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: rf99 (09-06-2016)
  #32  
09-06-2016, 04:45 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,503
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
I'm having a hard time right now. Offline matters, forum posts, site improvements. It's taking a toll. I'm really glad the sanlyn is able to help you with this. I'm reading and posting as I can.

Power is all about "same circuit". Something noisy on a circuit can interfere with others on the circuit. Something really noisy can jump circuits. This is why grounding is so important. But not everything can be 100% grounded, especially when you're talking internal computer components. So that's why computers are rarely on the same UPS (circuit) as my video gear.

You may also have cabling issues. Cables go bad, and I throw several away yearly. Cheap or expensive, does not matter.

The purple ATI box can also go bad. That doesn't happen often, but I've seen it before.

If that Oppo will stream interlaced MP4, and it doesn't look bad, you can do so. Leaving it interlaced is the best solution, but I always worry about future-proofing since most devices hate interlaced H.264 content. They do understand it, thanks to our progressive Youtube world. Remember there's no rule to do things just one way. You can archive an MPEG, make an interlaced H.264 copy for your Oppo, and if needed, go back to that MPEG to make deinterlaced MP4 in the future.

Adobe Premiere uses the MainConcept SDK to encode, and it looks fine. You don't get the advanced options of the full MainConcept, but you probably won't need those. Just keep it simple.

Output 4:2:0 is fine. You won't be re-encoding it from that.
4:2:0 doesn't have loss like DV 4:1:1.
DVD is 4:2:0.

Gspot is old and sometimes get confused. It's best with AVI and MPEG only. MediaInfo is for newer formats. As noted, lossless AVI doesn't have DAR, as it's a raw video.

General rule for MPEG-2 encoding:
352x480/576 = 3500-5000 VBR
720x480/576 = 5000-9000 VBR
720x480/576 for archive/BD = 15000 (15k) CBR

^ H.264 encoding is about 25-33% of those numbers. In general. H.264 has more options, and is even more content-based.

Jerkiness can often be your computer. H.264 needs more CPU. The real test for motion is non-computer, using specialized MP4 player for the TV. For example, BD player or WDTV. Based off your descriptions, this is exactly what you're observing.

When I'm sick or just not feeling well, I get bored staring at the ceiling, or watching too much TV. I need mental exercise. So I know how sanlyn feels. This is our interest, and keeps the ol' noggin refreshed. It's a good escape from what ails us. Remember, the web is also an entertainment venue, even when the venue is for productive means!

Many consumer cameras interlaced oddly. Not badly, just oddly. It depends on the format, and the age (ie, early VHS from 70s, etc).

That's all for now.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: rf99 (09-06-2016)
  #33  
09-06-2016, 04:46 PM
rf99 rf99 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 31
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Holy cow, sanlyn. That was way more than I expected!!

I am going to go through your work in detail, and try and learn from what you did. Thank you so much for that!!

Thanks for your kind words on the captures. They are definitely so much better than where I started... again, all thanks to you and other members of this forum!

As an aside, do you think the encodings from PE are pretty bad? In particular, I really thought I was going to use its H.264 MP4 encoding, but the jerkiness is just so noticeable on my Oppo.

For now I've been doing M2T from PE, which seems to result in nice playback... albeit it at an increased file size. (Though that also probably has to do with the 10Mbps target/12Mbps max I am using.)

From the sounds of it, I think I might be better off doing my timeline editing in PE and then exporting a new Lagarirh AVI (assuming that it looks ok to you and that PE didn't trample something when exporting Lagarith) for the final encoding in some other software (like you mentioned).

For the interference, I just ordered some s-video cables from Blue Jean Cables to see if they work out better than my mono price ones. I'm starting to think the interference is either from the VCR or the PC though. I might try some ferrite clamp-on cores to see if they help at all.

Thank you!!!

-- merged --

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I'm having a hard time right now. Offline matters, forum posts, site improvements. It's taking a toll. I'm really glad the sanlyn is able to help you with this. I'm reading and posting as I can.
I'm sorry to hear this, LS. Thank you for reply! I definitely appreciate it, but also didn't mean to push you when you weren't feeling well. I hope you feel better soon!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Power is all about "same circuit". Something noisy on a circuit can interfere with others on the circuit. Something really noisy can jump circuits. This is why grounding is so important. But not everything can be 100% grounded, especially when you're talking internal computer components. So that's why computers are rarely on the same UPS (circuit) as my video gear.
Got it! Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
You may also have cabling issues. Cables go bad, and I throw several away yearly. Cheap or expensive, does not matter.

The purple ATI box can also go bad. That doesn't happen often, but I've seen it before.
Yeah, at this point I'm thinking it's either the PC, the VCR, or the cabling/purple ATI box. I just ordered replacement S-VIDEO cables, so we'll see if those help. I'm not sure there's much I can do if it's the PC or VCR.... and, I hope it's not the purple ATI box, but I may see if I can pick up another one off ebay just to see.

It's just weird that with some fidgeting I can make it go away. However, time also seems to be a big component. Just as often as that humming pattern comes after some time... it also goes away. I also see it every time I restart the computer. So, I can't hep but wonder if it's the PC and something it's doing at different times that causes the interference.

I'll just keep trying different things, replacing different things, and trying to narrow it down.

Did the "good" sample up above look like what you'd expect, though? Or do you still see interference issues with it? It's hard for me to achieve that "good" state, but I do get it on occasion... and when I do, that's when I've been capturing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
If that Oppo will stream interlaced MP4, and it doesn't look bad, you can do so.
It looks good! Except for the jerkiness.... argh. I will try using something other than PE to encode, and see if the jerkiness disappears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
General rule for MPEG-2 encoding:
352x480/576 = 3500-5000 VBR
720x480/576 = 5000-9000 VBR
720x480/576 for archive/BD = 15000 (15k) CBR
Thanks for that! Unfortunately, PE's export limits the max bit-rate for MPEG-2 to 9Mbps. (Well, at least it does for VBR. I'll have to check CBR). Otherwise, I might do that 15Mbps CBR and call it a day, since the MP4 is exhibiting jerkiness.

Or, continue to use MTS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Jerkiness can often be your computer. H.264 needs more CPU. The real test for motion is non-computer, using specialized MP4 player for the TV. For example, BD player or WDTV. Based off your descriptions, this is exactly what you're observing.
I definitely get jerkiness at the beginning of clips on the computer. On the Oppo, I get it only during motion. But, I only get it with the H.264 MP4. Not with the high bit-rate MTS encodings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
When I'm sick or just not feeling well, I get bored staring at the ceiling, or watching too much TV. I need mental exercise. So I know how sanlyn feels. This is our interest, and keeps the ol' noggin refreshed. It's a good escape from what ails us. Remember, the web is also an entertainment venue, even when the venue is for productive means!
Are you saying my questions are like medicine? =P Well, I won't feel so bad for asking for so much help from you guys then! Seriously, though, I do hope both of you feel better, and VERY MUCH appreciate you both taking the time to help me.

This has become a great mental exercise for me, too, and I have enjoyed learning the right way to do things... and am seeing great results! I don't have a ton of footage to convert, but I do want to do it right, and I have enjoyed learning how from you guys.

(Except for the interference issues. Those, I am not enjoying. =P)

Thanks, guys!
Reply With Quote
  #34  
09-06-2016, 05:19 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,503
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
PE is a consumer version, so it may max out at DVD, not higher specs.

You'll end out wasting time and money to fix power issues. You may grab a few unneeded cables (for now), etc, but eventually it will be found. We've all been here -- sanlyn, myself, many others at this forum.

MTS isn't a format. MTS = MPEG Transport Stream (m2ts, mts, ts, etc). In fact, H.264 can be put in a transport stream as well, so it's not just MPEG anymore. So saying MTS is sort of like saying AVI or MP4 -- ie, saying nothing. What format and secs of actual video are in that container.

Again, most players hate interlaced H.264, and I have a feeling your Oppo is no different.

And some devices hate some containers. MP4 and MKV are the two most popular ones. MP4 is falling out of favor for MKV. Although it has more overhead, and is not web streaming (yet), it has more abilities.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: rf99 (09-06-2016)
  #35  
09-06-2016, 05:29 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Again, most players hate interlaced H.264, and I have a feeling your Oppo is no different.
Everything I've ever played in my OPPO's over the years has been interlaced or telecined, except for 23.976 or progressive video I've made myself. so I can't agree with that. Most new OPPO players for the past few years have a "24fps" switch for progressive film speed and streaming sites that transmit film speed progressive video. Some OPPOs have that switch on by default. It's somewhere in the settings menu, I'll see if I can look it up.

My Denon has that feature as well, but last I looked the DENON was on "Auto" for film speeds.

Like any expernal media player, any of them will have problems with oddball encoding structures, which I try to stick closer to standard formats. 1-second or 2-second GOP's, usually closed-GOP output, etc.. Even the priciest of players is not as accomplished as a PC media player is when it comes to accepting an unlimited range of formats, and none of them have anything like the codec storage on a PC.

Still, you shouldn't get jerky playback on motion. Does it do the same thing on commercial discs? I also have an HD PVR that records high-def h264 off cable TV, which play with no problems except for occasional slow audio sync because of the PVR's encoding of cable4 transmission noise (and they're all encoded as interlaced). But a little once-over with free software fixes audio in 20 minutes.

Look in OPPOs Video setup menu. "1080p/24fps" should be OFF, deinterlace should be "Auto", 4K/2K should be either Auto or OFF, 3D should be OFF. Check other settings as well. Sometimes their damn online firmware updates change the playback settings. Hopefully you have "NTSC" TV System selected instead of "Auto" or "PAL". I know some folks who aren't even aware that OPPO has dozens of settings inside.

Last edited by sanlyn; 09-06-2016 at 05:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
09-06-2016, 05:38 PM
rf99 rf99 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 31
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
PE is a consumer version, so it may max out at DVD, not higher specs.

You'll end out wasting time and money to fix power issues. You may grab a few unneeded cables (for now), etc, but eventually it will be found. We've all been here -- sanlyn, myself, many others at this forum.

MTS isn't a format. MTS = MPEG Transport Stream (m2ts, mts, ts, etc). In fact, H.264 can be put in a transport stream as well, so it's not just MPEG anymore. So saying MTS is sort of like saying AVI or MP4 -- ie, saying nothing. What format and secs of actual video are in that container.

Again, most players hate interlaced H.264, and I have a feeling your Oppo is no different.

And some devices hate some containers. MP4 and MKV are the two most popular ones. MP4 is falling out of favor for MKV. Although it has more overhead, and is not web streaming (yet), it has more abilities.
Sorry, I should have said the M2T file was in fact H.264. So, it seems like the Oppo may be okay with interlaced H.264 in the transport stream... but not in the MP4 container.

So, I still need to find the right final encoding for watching on my Oppo (which is my primary need). If I continue encoding with PE, then it's probably either H.264 in the M2T (also uses the MainConcept H.264 codec), or possibly the MPEG-2 which maxes at 9Mbps bitrate....

Or, I just have to give up encoding in PE, because those seem to be the only viable options. =P
Reply With Quote
  #37  
09-06-2016, 06:08 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rf99 View Post
For the interference, I just ordered some s-video cables from Blue Jean Cables to see if they work out better than my mono price ones. I'm starting to think the interference is either from the VCR or the PC though. I might try some ferrite clamp-on cores to see if they help at all.
If as you say you see power problems as soon as your PC turns on without running other apps, that points to a power supply -- which could also mean your PC's power supply. But juggling external cables shouldn't turn it on and off: a PC supply either works or doesn't. Not that intermittent trouble isn't possible, but its not common.

I didn't see any of this noise in your latest captures, which looked pretty nice. I haven't had time to respond, as we're in hurricane mode at my New York home now and power keeps blowing out. Par for the course, they buy it from ConEd which has to be the biggest ripoff since NoFat Twinkies. I should just go back to Tennessee all the time but the wife works up here a lot.

As for MP4 containers, my MP4 encodes aren't always high bitrate but I don't think I've ever used or recorded h264 below 4000 kbps. I don't think PE's encoder is bad news throughout, plenty of folks seem happy with it, although I think it can look noisy at times. h264 and MPEG alike are both contrary: they act differently with different material -- so I'm glad we still have a choice between them.

[OOPS! Power just flickered on and off, shutting down my relays elsewhere. The PC's are on battery but I had to stop and reset all the clocks in here).

[OOPS. There it goes again. I give up, I'm not resetting clocks again until I think it's all over. A little difficult for me to get around for the next few days anyway).

When Mama Nature settles down I'll give more notes on your later captures. Sorry for the delay. Doing good work so far.

-- merged --

Oh, I forgot...better do this before Hermine or whatever her name is acts up again:

I mounted every video in the last several posts on a Canvio USB drive and plugged it into my OPPO and then the DENON. None of my posted encodes has stutter on my OPPO or Denon. Even the 1280x480 compare MP4 plays OK. However, I was sorry to see that all of your MP4's stutter. Hmm. I must have gone through them too quickly the first time.

I hereby conclude that all of my samples have black levels that are too high on a calibrated TV. Will try to fix those tomorrow. I must be getting careless.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
09-07-2016, 12:22 PM
rf99 rf99 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 31
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Oh, I forgot...better do this before Hermine or whatever her name is acts up again:

I mounted every video in the last several posts on a Canvio USB drive and plugged it into my OPPO and then the DENON. None of my posted encodes has stutter on my OPPO or Denon. Even the 1280x480 compare MP4 plays OK. However, I was sorry to see that all of your MP4's stutter. Hmm. I must have gone through them too quickly the first time.
I actually have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, it's unfortunate that PE's MP4 encodes have the stutter. But, I'm also relieved you're seeing the same behavior on your devices.

I may stick with H.264 M2T for now then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
If as you say you see power problems as soon as your PC turns on without running other apps, that points to a power supply -- which could also mean your PC's power supply. But juggling external cables shouldn't turn it on and off: a PC supply either works or doesn't. Not that intermittent trouble isn't possible, bu t its not common.

I didn't see any of this noise in your latest captures, which looked pretty nice.
I have tried to wait until the noise goes away before capturing.

Sometimes I wonder if it was coincidence that fidgeting with the cables worked... and that in reality it was the PC doing something different (like maybe being less resource intensive after calming down after boot up) that really helped.

I'd be up for trying a different power supply, but I'm not exactly sure what to look for in an alternate power supply that might lend itself towards less interference.

New s-video cables arrive today. I'll also try and pickup some ferrite cores to place on the s-video cables (and maybe the purple ATI box?)

Good luck on riding out the bad weather. Stay safe!
Reply With Quote
  #39  
09-08-2016, 12:09 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Pointing a finger at the PC power supply is really a guess. More likely, if you're jiggling cables and it clears the noise it points to connections or the cable itself. Personally I've replaced a few as I said, and there are now BlueJeans cables and British QED's all over the place. Also replaced a few monitor cables over the years.

Here's an idea of some of the color and noise cleanup in the sample video original-lagarith-avi.avi, from post #28. The image below is reduced-size frame 32 from the original:



Some color bleed and shift throws visible discolorations into skin an other areas. Not pretty look at. Sometimes this can be cleared completely, sometimes just enough to be unnoticeable. The image below is a full-size crop from the original lower right corner, with arrows pointing to unsightly uglies in several areas: the greenish overflow on the top-left finger, further down some bad chroma noise on the arm's wrist. There's orange bleed in the neckband and beside the boy's cheek onto the shirt, and further down are green uglies on the boy's folded forearm. The right-hand figure has some brownish bleed into the edge of the shirt sleeve from the dark sofa, some discoloration along the side of the face, and some green bleed on the smaller boy's arm.


f32 original avi crop

Here are two examples of the chroma cleanup. The image below is the same frame deinterlaced (it's is frame 64 in the deinterlaced version) with chroma cleanup:


Below, reinterlaced frame 32 after cleanup (obviously the reinterlaced version has edge elements from both fields in the same pic):


The "after" pics also show some softening of false contouring in faces, caused by aggressive dnr in the original and which looked worse after sharpening during cleanup. The filters used were:

Code:
AssumeTFF()
QTGMC(preset="very fast",border=true)
vInverse()
ChromaShift(C=-4,L=-2)
FixChromaBleedingMod()
SmoothUV()

GradFun2DBmod(thr=1.5)
MergeChroma(awarpsharp2(depth=30).awarpsharp2(depth=10)) ## <- sharpen chroma edges only
LimitedSharpenFaster(edgemode=2)
AddGrainC(2.0,2.0)
vInverse was used to help tame interlace combing a little. The chroma cleaners are ChronmaShift, FixChromaBleedingMod(),and SmoothUV(), plus a little help later from Virtualdub's CamcorderColorDenoise. awarpsharp2 further tightened chroma bleed along edges. GradFun2DBmod was used to soften gradient edges with help from AddGrainC to add some natural fine film-type grain to reduce an over-filtered look. The sharpener was LimitedSharpenFaster applied after smoothing with GradFun2DBmod.

The deinterlaced version was re-interlaced using this standard procedure as last step:

Code:
SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave()
You can do some chroma cleanup using SeparateFields alone instead of deinterkacing, but in some cases it doesn't work as well. Cleaning up edges is ineffective on interlaced frames. You still have some halo effects from the original, but cleaning them would look worse than leaving them as-is and they aren't that bad anyway. It's unlikely that all of the chroma problems can be fixed entirely without creating a muddy mess.

-- merged --

Some notes on the Fashion Walk captures in post #30:

The original and the PE export version look identical to me, no changes. There would likely be no changes unless some RGB processing in PE had been applied. 4.2.2 and 4.4.4 color changes in Adobe's NLE's aren't the problem, 4.2.0 and 4.1.1 (YV12) to/from other colorspaces that's not very correct.

The smoothest motion with less disturbed interlace effects is the MPEG version. The lower-bitrate mp4 shows chroma noise and rough edges and mottling in the large smooth areas of solid color, such as the background wall panels and overhead panel in the last part: these are compression artifacts. Smooth areas of solid or gradually changing hue require higher bitrates, especially during motion. On motion the lower bitrate MP4s tend to look rough and grainy. I'd say that maybe at least 5000 or so would do a cleaner job than a 3000kbps target in h264. 5000 would be something like the equivalent of 6500 or 7000 in MPEG. To say that h264 can use 1/2 to 1/3 less bitrate than MPEG is a myth: it all depends on the content.

These are pretty nice captures, notably because you have better lighting with that camera and there appears to be little or no AGP activity/pumping. Or maybe you used a better camera??? Red is a bit oversaturated and tends to "glow" and smear somewhat. You'll note that consumer cameras have many more problems with the earlier captures in available room light (also popularly called "available darkness"!).

To clean up chroma problems I used pretty much the same code used in the earlier captures.

The picture below is cropped from a frame of the original fashion-original-lagarith-avi.avi (left image). Arrows point to red blur and smear toward the left, and general blur that softens the lettring in the sign. The image at right is the cleanup, looks cleaner and sharper.


The picture below is cropped from another frame of the original fashion-original-lagarith-avi.avi (left image). Arrows point to red blur and smear and a slight darker edge halo on the left side of the shirt. Arrows also indicate dark gray bleed into the red area at right. The image at right is the cleanup.


The idea is to get better clarity, cleaner color, and try to avoid that "typical VHS crummy noise" look.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg f32 original avi R.jpg (40.9 KB, 43 downloads)
File Type: jpg f32 original avi crop.jpg (51.2 KB, 43 downloads)
File Type: jpg f64 deint cleanup crop.jpg (55.9 KB, 42 downloads)
File Type: jpg f32 reint cleanup crop.jpg (59.6 KB, 42 downloads)
File Type: png fashion A original vs cleanup.png (332.4 KB, 42 downloads)
File Type: png fashion B original vs cleanup.png (337.8 KB, 42 downloads)
Reply With Quote
  #40  
09-08-2016, 01:36 PM
rf99 rf99 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 31
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Pointing a finger at the PC power supply is really a guess. More likely, if you're jiggling cables and it clears the noise it points to connections or the cable itself. Personally I've replaced a few as I said, and there are now BlueJeans cables and British QED's all over the place. Also replaced a few monitor cables over the years.
Yeah, I'm hoping it's just the cables. I will try the new BlueJeans cables tonight. I also ordered a new, sealed replacement purple ATI box, just in case it's that, too. I know it's not the AVT-8710, because when the noise is present... it's present both with and without the AVT-8710 in the chain.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Here's an idea of some of the color and noise cleanup in the sample video original-lagarith-avi.avi, from post #28. The image below is reduced-size frame 32 from the original:
I both like and don't like you for this! =P I am just getting started on learning cleanup techniques, and I didn't even notice some of these bleeds. But, now I do, and I'm sure they will be very noticeable to me going forward. I think you just cursed me. Hah!

I'm pretty picky on this stuff, though, so I would have noticed eventually. I've just been so focused on getting the captures right up until this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The "after" pics also show some softening of false contouring in faces, caused by aggressive dnr in the original and which looked worse after sharpening during cleanup. The filters used were:
This is great stuff! I am going to get very familiar with all of this (and your suggestions in past posts).

I do wonder, though.... as scenes and lighting change on a tape, do you find yourself applying certain scripts to certain scenes, and other scripts to others? Obviously if it's the same camera, I'd assume a lot of the same fixes would be constant. But, I can imagine that you might find yourself having to apply different fixes as the content and lighting change as well?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The original and the PE export version look identical to me, no changes. There would likely be no changes unless some RGB processing in PE had been applied. 4.2.2 and 4.4.4 color changes in Adobe's NLE's aren't the problem, 4.2.0 and 4.1.1 (YV12) to/from other colorspaces that's not very correct.
That's great news! So, I now know I can export a Lagarith AVI from PE, and then encode it into a final format with a better encoder without losing anything due to PE.

Thanks for looking at the the other exports from PE. If I continue to use PE to encode, we know the MP4 is a no-go. The MPEG-2 seems decent, but I'd probably use a different encoder to get a higher bit-rate.

I'm curious what you think about the H.264 M2T from PE, though. PE allows a high bit-rate, and it seems to look good on my Oppo. If it passes your scrutiny, I might just stay with that and continue to use PE to encode... just for the sake of streamlining things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
These are pretty nice captures, notably because you have better lighting with that camera and there appears to be little or no AGP activity/pumping. Or maybe you used a better camera???
The first set of captures were from my parent's camera. The fashion show capture was from my wife's parent's camera. I guess we know who had the better device, now. =P

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The picture below is cropped from another frame of the original fashion-original-lagarith-avi.avi (left image). Arrows point to red blur and smear and a slight darker edge halo on the left side of the shirt. Arrows also indicate dark gray bleed into the red area at right. The image at right is the cleanup.


The idea is to get better clarity, cleaner color, and try to avoid that "typical VHS crummy noise" look.
WOW!!! This is incredible. I cannot believe the improvement here. Were there any additional steps used (or subtracted or modified) on this vs. the script you posted for the first capture?

I am blown away by how much cleaner that looks!

It does seem like the cleaned up version might have a little more noise/pixelation in some areas... almost as if it was sharpened slightly. (For example, the top part of the red shirt that is just to the right of the shadow from the arm.) It's small, but is that a side-effect of one of the filters in particular? Either way, the improvement is substantial!

Thank you, sanlyn!!
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For sale: Nice ATI AIW capture setup volksjager Marketplace 3 07-16-2015 06:42 PM
Attempting to calibrate capture input, is the AVT-8710 a good source Prelude Capture, Record, Transfer 2 02-23-2015 09:36 PM
Advice on VHS capture setup (capture device, proc-amp, recommended connections) Simon76 Capture, Record, Transfer 12 12-23-2010 03:46 AM
Decisions on TBC, VCR and capture card setup? lordsmurf Project Planning, Workflows 20 11-05-2009 10:14 PM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:44 PM