Recommended VCRs in Australia?

[guyburns]

Jessie Vonk, wife of the conductor Hans Vonk (deceased), has given me some historic videos, professionally taken, of her husband conducting. Snippets of them will become part of an AV I am putting together, and I want top-quality transfers to digital.

VCR Player
I have had Saved Searches on eBay for several weeks of every PAL VCR in this list, but even though hundreds have come up in Europe, none have appeared in Australia. This leads to a few questions:

Q1. Were those recommended units sold in Australia?

Q2. Are there any equivalent models that were sold in Australia?

Q3. If the answers to the above are NO, does anyone have a list of top-notch Australian models?


Digital Converter
As well as a player, I need a converter, which led me to this product. I'm on a Mac so need a Mac model. There are less expensive, popular choices such as this, but a extensive review on that page by Randy Forgaard, said that...

• the Elgato Video Capture automatically does a minor zoom on all captured video to avoid the fuzzy lines at the bottom of the captured video. On the plus side, this saves you the step of doing that zoom yourself in video editing. On the minus side, it is cropping all 4 sides of the video slightly, which might not be what you want.

And said this about a previous model of the Hauppauge:

• This product exists in two very similar versions, the Model 1212 and the Model 1445 Gaming Edition , but the functionality of the two models is identical when capturing video from analog video magnetic tape. Although designed for high-def video capture, it's by far the best product I tried for standard-def video capture as well.

Q4: Recommendations for a digital converter for the Mac?

Thanks

[lordsmurf]

You have an important project, and don't want to screw around with garbage gear.

Rule #1 = no eBay.
Rule #2 = no cheap "new" Chinese junk USB capture cards from Amazon or eBay -- that includese Elgato (aka Elcrapo, an earned nickname; Elgato makes several great products, capture cards are NOT one of them!)

Not that Hauppauge card.

Mac is the wrong tool for video capture, so your options are limited (and most are not good). Windows was the OS for video -- and realize I say this as a longtime Mac user and owner.

Australia did not have, nor did it need, special versions of the PAL S-VHS VCRs with line TBCs. The European models were imported. (You can find old Videoguys Aus/NZ ads, which sold new SR-V10E back in the early 2000s, which were Europe models "imported". Actually just shipped stock from Asia to Aus/NZ, Europe was further for most models, only a few were made in Germany back then.)

What OS is that Mac on? You never want to capture video on your daily always-online system anyway, it will cause glitches/errors (dropped frames, etc) in the capture.

[guyburns]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I run three Macs (late 2013 models) and three OSX's (on external SSDs) – 10.9.5, 10.11, and 10.15. If I have to, I can buy a PC as part of the project, but I want to avoid PCs.

Limiting the degradation
I don't want to get too involved in quality transfers, given that video itself is so poor anyway, but I do want to limit the degradation during transfer. I did a similar thing about 5 years ago with 8mm home movies from the late 1930s to the 1950s. They couldn't be scanned commercially at 2k in Australia at the time, so I sent them to VideoPro.dk in Denmark who had a Lasergraphics machine. And they came back beautifully scanned, well worth the couple of thousand dollars it cost me.

I want to digitise these Vonk tapes without much loss, but I want to avoid the months I spent on the 8mm films.

Questions
Q1. Why didn't Australia need special VCRs?

Q2. What's the problem with the Hauppauge item? It's not a card, it's a gaming unit costing about $200. And from my understanding, gamers can be a pretty picky bunch.

Suggestions
Any suggestions as to VCR players, how I get hold of them, and the digitising equipment and software necessary, would be most welcome. Cost doesn't matter too much, but I'm not into overkill, if you get my drift. I want to get to 95% of the original quality on the tape, not 99.5%.

[timtape]

Guy, along with many other countries, Australia used the PAL system. The diagram below shows (in blue) which countries used PAL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL

You did well to have your 8mm films digitised on a Lasergraphics machine, I guess a Scan Station. Most shopfront stores use gear well below that standard, and it tends to show!

Acquiring a suitable VCR (which will be second hand) is getting harder, but harder still these days is finding a good tech to properly service such gear, and for the tech, spare parts are also much scarcer. VCR service shops started closing doors many years ago. I guess remaining techs will more likely reside in a bigger capital city like Sydney or Melbourne. Many will be retired.

It should be commonsense but I recommend having the VCR expertly serviced before even playing or winding a valuable/irreplaceable recording. For test purposes only play a sacrificial tape.

Not a lot can be done to improve most VHS tapes post capture. The main variable in maintaining picture AND sound quality is at the playback/capture stage, as with your 8mm films.

Hope this helps.

Tim

[lordsmurf]

With 10.9 and 10.10, you have an excellent option.

No, video game needs are wildly different from videotape needs. Not the same, not even close or adjacent. Wrong path there.

I'll try to reply back with more tomorrow, busy now.

[guyburns]

Not knowing much about VCRs and tapes, but having a very good knowledge of electronics, 8mm and 9.5mm film, and Adobe Premiere, I will be approaching the conversion of tape to digital very cautiously before I outlay any money. I don't mind outlaying money, but I do mind getting results that are inferior.

For example, when researching scanning film, I paid for 5 different scans of the same 3-minute reel, in three countries (Denmark, UK, Australia). Then did a detailed comparison inside Premiere. Months of work, and $400 on tests, before I went ahead with 1800 feet of scanning. If anyone wants to see the test results, let me know.

I won't be testing VCRs and tapes because of the poor-quality inherent in the medium. Instead, I'll aim for what appears to be suitable equipment. But, as with my film scans (see details I sent to VideoPro.dk at the end of this post), I want the tape captures to be as raw as possible.

Requirements (may be added to or altered, as I learn more)

• Digital frame-rate to be the same as the tape frame-rate. If that is not possible, there must be no added or removed frames. I don't know how tapes or tape-capture works, but if my 25fps videos come out of the converter at 29.97 fps, with some sort of pull-down involved… tut-tut. No good to me.
• The entire video image to be captured, including lines that normally would not be visible on a TV.
• Colour and contrast correction, and sharpening, if available as options, can be turned off.
• Input signal to the converter should be Component. I assume that would give the best quality.
• I'm not fussy about the codec used, but the bit rate should probably be above 5Mbps.

I mention frame-rate because in a detailed review of the Elgato and Hauppauge devices, the reviewer said that the output from both was 29.97fps. Now, it doesn't matter to me what frame rate is assigned to the capture, as long as each of the original video frames appears just once. In Premiere, I can "interpret" the frame-rate to be whatever I want.

Are my requirements achievable?
Given my capture requirements listed above (and stressing that at this early stage I don't know much about VCRs and tapes), are those requirements achievable?

If you have suggestions about equipment/software, please let me know which of the requirements above can or cannot be met, and whether they'll work on a Mac. I can get a PC if absolutely necessary.


Just for interest, these are the requirements that accompanied the films I sent to VideoPro:

• All films to be scanned on the Laser Graphics ScanStation, at a resolution of 2K.
• Films to be overscanned as per the jpg attachment "Super 8 (VideoPro)". i.e. the scan should extend past the boundary of the image on all sides, and include approximately half the perforation.
• The scan output should be in ProRes 4444 format, encapsulated in a Quicktime file (.mov).
• The frame rate for all files should be set to 16 fps.
• Processing should be kept to an absolute minimum: no colour correction, no sharpening, no contrast adjustment. A flat, raw scan, please.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyburns

I won't be testing VCRs and tapes because of the poor-quality inherent in the medium.

It's not poor quality. Bad VCRs, bad capture devices, bad software, bad methods -- that creates poor quality. The video that actually exists on the tape is rarely as bad as most people think. It's like having a steak for the first time, when all you had ever eaten was dog food. "Wow, what is this!!!"

Quote:

Digital frame-rate to be the same as the tape frame-rate. If that is not possible, there must be no added or removed frames. I don't know how tapes or tape-capture works, but if my 25fps videos come out of the converter at 29.97 fps, with some sort of pull-down involved… tut-tut. No good to me.

Your PAL source is 25fps, interlaced, equiv 4:2:2 and 6-bit dithered. There's no leeway here, that is it. Just max capture res at 720x576 interlaced, and lossless (at worst, uncompressed, or good-lossy like ProRes422), nothing else.

Quote:

The entire video image to be captured, including lines that normally would not be visible on a TV.

Well, not "the entire" field/frame, with all non-visuals present, which is vastly larger than most understand. Much of it is useless data for digital conversion. It creates unwieldy huge files that cannot really be imported (ie, no Premiere) or used.

But you do want the complete active image area, with standard overscan. And that is what 720x576 will achieve. This what 99% of cards do. Only certain junk cards "zoom in" to crop overscan (not good, always a butcher job), and only certain cards can see the entire non-visual palette.

Quote:

Colour and contrast correction, and sharpening, if available as options, can be turned off.

Being able to disable false values (color, exposure/luma/brightness, etc) is important. The option to improve is a nice bonus for many, requires for others.

But you should almost never sharpen in hardware now, with the lone exception being the SignVideo/Studio1 detailers. Avisynth sharpening tends to be vastly superior, finally, but adding that it must also be done with great care (ie, easy to butcher).

Quote:

Input signal to the converter should be Component. I assume that would give the best quality.

No. Component is essentially RGB (even the YUV base), and what you want is to extract the actual Y/C data recorded onto the tape. That means s-video. Anything else processes the video, usually badly, both up (component, HDMI, etc) and down (coax, usually composite).

Quote:

I'm not fussy about the codec used, but the bit rate should probably be above 5Mbps.

You have it backwards. Bitrate is merely an allocation to the resolution and compression. So you need to worry about the compression first, bitrate second. The best codecs are lossless, bitrate is not something you choose. Bitrate options are entirely for compression need, and you want to stay less-compressed or uncompressed.

Quote:

I mention frame-rate because in a detailed review of the Elgato and Hauppauge devices, the reviewer said that the output from both was 29.97fps. Now, it doesn't matter to me what frame rate is assigned to the capture, as long as each of the original video frames appears just once. In Premiere, I can "interpret" the frame-rate to be whatever I want.

No, you cannot have Premiere interpret anything. It doesn't work that way. Premiere will butcher video, force a square peg into a round hole with a sledge hammer.

Frame rate for PAL is fixed at 25fps, and interlaced from your consumer/home videotape sources (VHS, etc). Sometimes this is noted as 25i, other times 50i, so be aware of that. It's not 25p or 50p, because it's not progressive (p).

Frame rate is extremely important to get accurate, as attempting to capture wrong fps will drop heavy frames.

Quote:

Are my requirements achievable?

Certainly, and quite easily. But the proper hardware is required. Not just any random items, from any random sources (again, NOT eBay and Amazon!)

Quote:

If you have suggestions about equipment/software, please let me know which of the requirements above can or cannot be met, and whether they'll work on a Mac. I can get a PC if absolutely necessary.

Since you have pre-10.15 Mac, you do have a narrow path to obtain decent quality results.

Aside from that, standard workflow is needed: VCR > TBC > capture card.

But again, not just any random items.
- Not any random VCR (even the "good models", realizing many dud units exist, mishandled over the years, zero maintenance).
- Not any random TBC, or "TBC" (not actually TBCs as claimed).
- Not any random capture card, even if you see morons on Youtube giving them glowing reviews (and amusingly, the results seen are often awful, and they're too ignorant to know it).

Ideally, recommended JVC/Panasonic S-VHS VCR with line TBC >
> recommended Cypress/DataVideo/etc type frame TBC >
> recommended capture card

Exact recommendation can vary on your exist situation, your exact tapes (modes/speeds, condition, sources, etc), as well as exact Os (ie, Mac pre-10.15 available, or Windows __ available)

Quote:

Just for interest, these are the requirements that accompanied the films I sent to VideoPro:

• All films to be scanned on the Laser Graphics ScanStation, at a resolution of 2K.
• Films to be overscanned as per the jpg attachment "Super 8 (VideoPro)". i.e. the scan should extend past the boundary of the image on all sides, and include approximately half the perforation.
• The scan output should be in ProRes 4444 format, encapsulated in a Quicktime file (.mov).
• The frame rate for all files should be set to 16 fps.
• Processing should be kept to an absolute minimum: no colour correction, no sharpening, no contrast adjustment. A flat, raw scan, please.

Mostly good.
I'd be wary of that fps need. Why 16?
And then wetgate is a must for any film work I do.

I didn't read it all (and may not agree with everything written there), too busy, but this is an interesting conversation on several machines and wetgate.
https://cinematography.com/index.php...canner/page/3/