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  #1  
04-16-2017, 03:18 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Ok, I've just started a new topic to show the realtime footage using both of my LaserDisc players and various capture cards. Before I post 12 different captures of realtime scene I am going to be posting 2 quick captures of the test pattern of Snell & Wilcox. Pioneer Elite LD-S2 was used for both.

File titled '01. Video Essentials.avi' was recorded outputting S-Video into AIW 7500.
File titled '02. Video Essentials.avi' was recorded outputting Composite BNC into Panasonic DMR-ES25 and then outputting Component video (Red, Green, Blue) into a Conexant based USB capture stick. Notice how it takes 3 frames for motion adaptive 3D comb filter to kick in.


Attached Files
File Type: avi 01. Video Essentials.avi (15.10 MB, 23 downloads)
File Type: avi 02. Video Essentials.avi (17.32 MB, 21 downloads)
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  #2  
04-16-2017, 03:32 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Now comes the realtime capture samples. A little background. This is part of the rock concert that took place in Germany in 1990. It was shot by PAL cameras. It was pressed on PAL VHS for European viewers, NTSC VHS for North American viewers and Japanese NTSC LaserDisc for Asian viewers in 1990. In 2015 it was remastered into PAL DVD and PAL BluRay but I thought remastering was horrible. Besides 12 LaserDisc samples I intend to include the same sample from PAL VHS done by someone else and the same sample from DVD remaster. It will probably take me several posts to attach all the 14 files. But here we go.

Here is the description of the hardware workflow used. Some of the captures done using S-Video outputs directly into the capture card thus omitting motion adaptive 3D comb filters. Others are done outputting Composite into capture cards or DVD recorder with motion adaptive 3D comb filters. I personally don't see much of visual difference between all the captures. The only difference I noticed is when I used inferior player Pioneer CLD-D703. The image is grainy. But even then the difference between motion adaptive 3D comb filter and direct S-Video is none. The other difference I noticed is when I used Compro VideoMate card. For some reason it gives very blurry image. I don't know what's wrong with this card.

01. Live In East-Berlin.avi

Pioneer Elite LD-S2 -> BNC Composite -> Panasonic DMR-ES25 -> Component -> Conexant based USB stick.


02. Live In East-Berlin.avi

Pioneer Elite LD-S2 -> S-Video 1 -> ATI All In Wonder 7500


03. Live In East-Berlin.avi

Pioneer CLD-D703 -> Composite -> ATI TV Wonder HD 750 PCIe


04. Live In East-Berlin.avi

Pioneer Elite LD-S2 -> S-Video 2 -> OneTouch VC500 (Conexant based USB stick)


05. Live In East-Berlin.avi

Pioneer CLD-D703 -> S-Video -> ATI TV Wonder HD 750 USB


06. Live In East-Berlin.avi

Pioneer Elite LD-S2 (before video level was lowered down) -> BNC Composite -> Panasonic DMR-ES25 -> Component -> Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle Thunderbolt
Recorded into uncompressed 8 bit MOV. Converted to Huffyuv AVI using QTInput from AVISynth.


07. Live In East-Berlin.avi

Pioneer Elite LD-S2 (before video level was lowered down) -> BNC Composite -> ATI Theater 550 PRO


08. Live In East-Berlin.avi

Pioneer Elite LD-S2 (before video level was lowered down) -> BNC Composite -> Compro VideoMate TV Ultra


09. Live In East-Berlin.avi

Pioneer Elite LD-S2 (before video level was lowered down) -> S-Video 1 -> ATI AMD TV Wonder 600 USB


10. Live In East-Berlin.avi

Pioneer Elite LD-S2 (before video level was lowered down) -> BNC Composite -> ATI TV Wonder HD 750 PCIe


11. Live In East-Berlin.avi

Pioneer Elite LD-S2 (before video level was lowered down) -> S-Video 1 -> OneTouch VC500 (Conexant based USB stick)

Last edited by metaleonid; 04-16-2017 at 03:44 PM.
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04-16-2017, 03:38 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Attachments 1 through 3


Attached Files
File Type: avi 01. Live In East-Berlin.avi (26.63 MB, 15 downloads)
File Type: avi 02. Live In East-Berlin.avi (20.75 MB, 13 downloads)
File Type: avi 03. Live In East-Berlin.avi (25.22 MB, 13 downloads)
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04-16-2017, 03:41 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Attachments 4 through 6. Can moderators move all realtime attachments into one post later?
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04-16-2017, 03:41 PM
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Let me know when you're done with this volley of posts. I'll clean it all up.

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04-16-2017, 03:47 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Attachments 4 through 6. Attempt 2.
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  #7  
04-16-2017, 03:50 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Attachments 4 through 6. Attempt 3.


Attached Files
File Type: avi 04. Live In East-Berlin.avi (22.55 MB, 4 downloads)
File Type: avi 05. Live In East-Berlin.avi (29.82 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: avi 06. Live In East-Berlin.avi (28.30 MB, 3 downloads)
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04-16-2017, 03:54 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Attachments 7 through 9.


Attached Files
File Type: avi 07. Live In East-Berlin.avi (21.34 MB, 6 downloads)
File Type: avi 08. Live In East-Berlin.avi (18.42 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: avi 09. Live In East-Berlin.avi (26.41 MB, 4 downloads)
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  #9  
04-16-2017, 03:56 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Attachments 10 through 11 plus PAL VHS and PAL DVD samples.


Attached Files
File Type: avi 10. Live In East-Berlin.avi (20.77 MB, 5 downloads)
File Type: avi 11. Live In East-Berlin.avi (22.57 MB, 5 downloads)
File Type: m2v VHS.m2v (4.34 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: m2v Reissue.m2v (3.85 MB, 6 downloads)
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04-16-2017, 03:58 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Lordsmurf, I am done. If possible, move all 11 attachments (titled Live In East-Berlin) as well as VHS.m2v and Reissue.m2v into a second post. Thanks a lot.
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  #11  
04-16-2017, 09:01 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Thanks for all y=this work with your samples.

But....why are the samples so washed out and pale? Even the black borders are greyed on most. Otherwise I'd say no single shot lasts long enough for evaluating anything in colored floodlights and heavily reprocessed masters. Except for differences in levels (one of which hit illegal limits, many of which are clipped at y=16), the main difference I see is that some are softer than others and none are particularly sharp. With this kind of video, apparently designed for viewers with severe attention deficit disorder, it comes down strictly to a matter of preference for most of the choices. None of it represents nature or reality very well, it's all show colors. So I'd advise: pick the one you like best.

Of course others might have a different take entirely. I just didn't have time to make all these uploads look more correct or "natural" for detailed evaluation. They have no dynamic range at all, so apparently these aren't tests for those qualities in a capture card. I didn't notice any dot crawl, if that's what you were aiming for.

Last edited by sanlyn; 04-16-2017 at 09:25 PM.
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04-16-2017, 09:57 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Reissue.m2v is laughable indeed. Badly deinterlaced with a bunch of temporal information thrown away. Inexplicably pillarboxed to 16:9. Makes me wonder how these idiots get/keep their jobs.

I don't think this is good LD demo material for comb filter/workflow testing, because of how much the footage was abused by field blending PAL->NTSC.

I didn't compare all the files, but the DMR-ES25 is creating some nasty "moth-eaten" artifacts. Is the DNR definitely off for this input?


Attached Images
File Type: png 01. Live In East-Berlin000111.png (244.1 KB, 9 downloads)
File Type: png 10. Live In East-Berlin000111.png (215.8 KB, 6 downloads)
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  #13  
04-17-2017, 03:44 AM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Hi Brad,

Yes, the DNR is definitely off on DMR-ES25. Well, that's the posterization artifact at its best. Still hoping to receive ADV7842 evaluation board.

I don't know how those idiots keep their job but unfortunately this is the case for most of the DVD and BluRay reissues in music industry now days. The BluRay reissue isn't better.
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04-17-2017, 08:49 AM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Hi Sanlyn,

Sanlyn, yes, these are the LaserDiscs I'm trying to digitize. Just the live shows which were filmed by PAL cameras at the time. I do have Video Essentials LD and I just ordered Video Standards LD. I guess I can make short samples of real scenes there, but many of my cards are gone now. ATI 600 USB, ATI 550 Theatre PCI, Blackmagic Intensity Pro - are all gone. Compro VideoMate is unplugged and is in the box. But the point I was trying to make is that for such scenes I don't see any rainbows or dot crawls regardless whether I go with motion adaptive 3D comb filter or without it.

Brad, you already looked at clip #10 which was done with LD-S2 and ATI TV Wonder HD 750 PCIe card. Now if you look at clip #3 which was done with CLD-D703 and also ATI TV Wonder HD 750 PCIe, you will see that CLD-D703 produces a lot more grain than LD-S2, but has better chroma. Now the question. In your opinion the lack of grain on the clip #10 due to heavy noise reduction or just lack of noise? Is it possible to apply some AVISynth noise filters to clip #3 to get rid of such grain and make the clip look very close to #10? Note: Noise Reduction were set to off on LD-S2 during the capture.
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04-17-2017, 05:01 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metaleonid View Post
DMR-ES25. Well, that's the posterization artifact at its best.
Hmm. I think you and lordsmurf are using that term to describe different effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metaleonid View Post
But the point I was trying to make is that for such scenes I don't see any rainbows or dot crawls regardless whether I go with motion adaptive 3D comb filter or without it.
Rainbows and dot crawl should only appear on sharp transitions. Since the video is so fuzzy from all the processing, it makes sense that you're not seeing these artifacts. (There is actually some dot crawl at the very top of 04, 07, and 11, because the vertical interval contains a 1-line test pattern with color on the right side. Therefore a sharp vertical color transition. The other capture devices don't include these lines in the output.)

Quote:
Brad, you already looked at clip #10 which was done with LD-S2 and ATI TV Wonder HD 750 PCIe card. Now if you look at clip #3 which was done with CLD-D703 and also ATI TV Wonder HD 750 PCIe, you will see that CLD-D703 produces a lot more grain than LD-S2, but has better chroma. Now the question. In your opinion the lack of grain on the clip #10 due to heavy noise reduction or just lack of noise?
Isn't the "better chroma" just due to capture settings? I don't think it's possible to produce an image from LaserDisc that noise-free without noise reduction, but the more techy members of LDDB would know much better than me. The guys who read circuit diagrams, specs of the chips used, etc. I did compare the two and couldn't find any details that were wiped away, but as already mentioned, there are barely details in the first place with this disc.

Quote:
Is it possible to apply some AVISynth noise filters to clip #3 to get rid of such grain and make the clip look very close to #10?
I'm definitely not the person to ask about that.
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04-17-2017, 06:23 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metaleonid View Post
Is it possible to apply some AVISynth noise filters to clip #3 to get rid of such grain and make the clip look very close to #10? Note: Noise Reduction were set to off on LD-S2 during the capture.
That vertical frequency noise isn't grain. Llooks like some type of RF herringbone or moire pattern and it's pretty much the same in every frame, so most denoisers won't see it as "noise". Smoothers, even where it would work (try dfttest), would result in hard gradient edges and block noise when re-encoding. So if this noise is removed you'll have to smooth gradient edges with another filter such as GradFun3 and apply some film-like grain to mask hard edges in large smooth areas like the smoky backgrounds. But that type of noise is tough to remove without losing detail. And there's very little hard detail to start with. I have no idea what caused it. Bad wire connection, maybe?

So if you don't want herringbone or similar noise and you still want smooth smoky backgrounds, you'll have to live with some grain.


Attached Files
File Type: mp4 Number 3 Levels_dfttest.mp4 (1.92 MB, 5 downloads)

Last edited by sanlyn; 04-17-2017 at 06:47 PM.
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  #17  
04-17-2017, 08:42 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
That vertical frequency noise isn't grain. Llooks like some type of RF herringbone or moire pattern
I think it fits the definition of crosstalk here. Can't link to the subsection but if you CTRL+F for crosstalk it comes up.

This post mentions crosstalk but it's not clear to me whether the colorbars screenshot is meant to be a demo of that or not.
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  #18  
04-17-2017, 10:00 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Isn't the "better chroma" just due to capture settings?
Definitely not. Take a look at these 2 images. Look at Chroma on CLD-D703 using ATI HD 750 and on LD-S2 using DMR-ES25. Now, I started to understand what Y / C delay is.


Attached Images
File Type: png CLD-D703.PNG (659.0 KB, 14 downloads)
File Type: png LD-S2.PNG (627.3 KB, 14 downloads)
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  #19  
04-18-2017, 01:33 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn
That vertical frequency noise isn't grain. Llooks like some type of RF herringbone or moire pattern
I think it fits the definition of crosstalk here.
Seems a correct explanation to me. The noise wouildn't respond to any crosstalk/dot crawl filters I threw at it, degrainers had no effect, and de-freqency plugins ignored it. Dfttest at default smoothed it.
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04-18-2017, 01:43 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metaleonid View Post
Definitely not. Take a look at these 2 images. Look at Chroma on CLD-D703 using ATI HD 750 and on LD-S2 using DMR-ES25. Now, I started to understand what Y / C delay is.
I don't understand the example. You're using two different players but no common control in between. How about using
the CLDD-D703/HD-750 combo and the LD-S2/HD-750 combo without the pass-thru unit? Are you sure the DMR-ES25 didn't screw things up? Why wasn't the DMR-ES25 used in both tests?

I often wonder why anyone would be using the ES25 anyway, I've never seen anyone recommend it for pass-thru. It's not equal to the ES10 or ES15 in correction power and all three ES's have a different look to them. But that's another story.
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