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  #21  
05-24-2017, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Have you considered something like an ES10 or ES15
I don't think that will help in this specific situation.

Remember that the ES10/15 is not a 100% true TBC, and dropped frames issues almost always need an external frame sync TBC (DataVideo, Cypress/AVT, Kramer, etc). The ES10/15 can still drop frames. Source can have issues, and capture hardware can be touchy, making it a bad fit. In those cases, you have to run the ES10 into an external TBC still.

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  #22  
05-24-2017, 06:01 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I strongly disagree. I'll bet a working Es1o against a dud AVT-8710 any time. Or the O.P. needs a better external tbc that actually works without placing it on a bag of ice cubes to prevent over-heating.
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  #23  
05-24-2017, 06:06 PM
jt_retro jt_retro is offline
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Now the point has gone from the AVT dropping frames to the Live-2 dropping frames.
Actually i don't mean to comment so specifically. I just mean missing frames going in to the computer.

I'm just trying to understand why audio goes out of sync when there are frames coming in too slow/too fast, and no correction in Virtualdub. I'm trying to conceptualise that when no correction is enabled in Virtualdub (i.e. Virtualdub will do not inserting or dropping frames), the video goes out of sync with the audio as the "lengths" of the video and audio are different.

One things that is really interesting, is that it's still better with my dud AVT, than no AVT at all. We're talking hundreds of dropped frames vs maybe 20 over an hour.

Still though, I'd like to see none, and the locking up of the AVT during recording transitions/really bad parts of the tape is unacceptable - right? Or am I being too harsh on a £200 device?
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  #24  
05-24-2017, 09:42 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Locking up? Hundreds of dropped frames? Are you playing a tape, or gift wrap ribbon? That's a literally destroyed cassette, or your player simply can't track it, or only a shop grade tbc would have the power to keep things straight (Be prepared to spend 20 times what you spent on the AVT, or more). I've had some pretty bad tapes myself, and some that mistracked even in my AG-1980 (but no dropped frames, btw). I'm even starting to suspect PC-based difficulties (I capture with the internet disconnected and anti-virus turned off). Seriously, that's very poor performance. At that rate I'd be looking to replace everything in sight, including the player, the capture card, and the PC itself. So I definitely appreciate your distress.

Other than the suggestions already made, including using other software beyond VDub, I can only wonder at all this. Legions of users worldwide have no problem with VirtualDub capture, yet occasional mysteries keep popping up. I can only conclude that something in a specific setup just doesn't mate properly, and that "something" never seems to get resolved except by changing some major factor in the total capture setup.
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  #25  
05-24-2017, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jt_retro View Post
I'm just trying to understand why audio goes out of sync
There are several ways it can happen, but the most common at capture time is loss of frames. Video drops/inserts, audio does not. It's that easy. You end up with more audio runtime than video.

Quote:
One things that is really interesting, is that it's still better with my dud AVT, than no AVT at all.
Classic sign of bad TBC. Without will guaranteed drop. With a bad unit will still drop and have other problems (freezing frames, repeat frames, offset frames, etc).

Quote:
We're talking hundreds of dropped frames vs maybe 20 over an hour.
Correct. That's what will happen.

Quote:
Or am I being too harsh on a £200 device?
It would be a deserved complaint if it was a £2 device. It promises something that does not work. Once upon a time, when the unit was green, it was fine. Some earlier black units were also fine. Then chipsets changed around 2010/2011, and it was a waste of money. I tested new 2015/2016 units earlier this year, and they still suck.

Just FYI, given your problem reports, I've been able to entirely eliminated or mostly eliminate other potential problems. Faulty TBC is extremely likely your issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Hundreds of dropped frames?
That's a literally destroyed cassette, or your player simply can't track it,
Nope. TBC can cause this easy.

Quote:
or only a shop grade tbc
Nope. Broadcast-grade TBCs would do worse, not better. Those expect better master/1st-gen sources, like BetacamSP, U-matic and S-VHS. Home sources like VHS tend to confuse them entirely. I have ample samples of how "pro" TBCs compare to the ones suggested on this site. I've just not had time to post it.

Quote:
I'm even starting to suspect PC-based difficulties
That prospect is eliminated for now because of how the with-TBC vs. without-TBC behaves, and given that the TBC he's using is a known-flawed unit. The correct course of action is to get a known-good TBC. Only then, if the problem persists, can other troubleshooting begin. And I'm betting it won't get that far. I've seen this exact issue. I still have a bad 2015 AVToolbox TBC right here, for testing.

Quote:
At that rate I'd be looking to replace everything
including the player, the capture card, and the PC itself.
Not yet.

Quote:
Other than the suggestions already made, including using other software beyond VDub,
I never suggest this. It just gets worse with others.

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  #26  
05-25-2017, 02:56 AM
jt_retro jt_retro is offline
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There is nothing wrong with my VCR, or even the tape for that matter. The visible output of the tape and VCR is of an extremely high quality. The "hundreds" of dropped frames (where Virtualdub inserts frames) occurs during recording transitions (or a few seconds of very bad tracking due to the camcorder is was made with), when tracking is off etc.

There is also nothing wrong with the PC. It's a vanilla install of Windows 10 on a Core i7 laptop

As for the capture card, it's probably fine, given the improved performance with the TBC, albeit not perfect, due to the TBC most likely being faulty. The locking up I refer to is the TBC locking up during the bad tracking.

All in all, everything is working well, except for the TBC locking up during bad transitions, and also giving badly timed output at random points (causing about 20 dropped frames every hour or so).

Quote:
You end up with more audio runtime than video.
Thank you LS, that's the answer I was looking for as to why audio goes out of sync due to bad video timing, and it makes sense to me

FWIW, my VCR has a built in TBC as well which I've been using all along. It's a Panasonic 930 SVHS machine. I'm really impressed by it as you can visibly see the "wobble" being fixed

It's like the built in TBC fixes the wobble, and the AVT (when working!) keeps the frame rate constant and fixes any remaining tape judder, especially at the top.
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  #27  
05-25-2017, 03:26 AM
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- What is the card?
- Windows 10 is not advised, as it does stuff in the background, like a kid with ADD. Terrible OS for video. It for sure should not be allowed to connect to the internet.

However, the TBC is probably still likely.

Your issue is not "timing". That's a reserved jargon for something else. Your issue is dropped frames, liekly caused by the known-faulty TBC. which also leads to audio skew.

"Wobble" is "horizontal jitter". It's an image issue, and is indeed fixed internal line TBCs in a VCR. However, said VCR does nothing for dropped frames and signal integrity, which is what the external frame sync TBC is for.

"Judder" is also a reserved jargon, and almost always is used for IVTC/TC situations. VHS should never have this. I'm betting you observations are falsely observed as judder, but in reality you're seeing visual dropped frames. The net effect is similar, but with judder being correctable, and NOT causing sync issues.

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  #28  
05-25-2017, 09:06 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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I would capture a stable source (DVD player, TV box) with audio to make sure you can do that without the 20 random drops per hour.
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