Quantcast Device to capture 480i in 720p? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
07-19-2017, 07:16 PM
x77x x77x is offline
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i know this is everywhere, but the more i look it up, the more confused i get...

i need simple english!!! =)

i have a JVC S9500U and im try to capture s-video to edit and put on DVD
(and a 9900 and a AG-1980)

btw, isnt the 9500 9900 525i?

is there a device that will capture 480i in 720p?

most capture devices will only capture 480i in 480i


i have the diamond VC500, and been messing with virtual dub
(because the ez grabber software is shit)
although OBS studio software will capture 480i at 1280x720p

ive asked this before, should i upscale to 720p then capture?

or should i just capture in the orginal 480i and let the dvd making software render to 720p

i want the best quality with compression
(dont have the disk space for huge files)

Last edited by x77x; 07-19-2017 at 07:48 PM.
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  #2  
07-19-2017, 09:02 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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720p can't be used for DVD.
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07-19-2017, 09:18 PM
x77x x77x is offline
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DVD is 720x480? (i or p)
and
720p is 1280x720p

so your saying my 720 x 480i captures are fine?

if its s-video stick to DVDs (720x480)
if its 720p youd need an upscaler (480i to 720p)


grrr i kept thinking thats dvds are 1280x720p


so then....
whats the best way to capture JVC's 525i and use for DVDs?
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  #4  
07-20-2017, 06:34 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I don't know where you're getting your information, but you must be referring to NTSC DVD. Your VCRs are NTSC players that play NTSC tapes only. Their output is interlaced 4:3 images.

NTSC DVD is (standard) 720x480, interlaced (aka, "480i"). NTSC is never a frame height of 576, which is a PAL format. The NTSC frame rate is 29.97 fps. DVD can be encoded for only two display aspect ratios, 4:3 or 16:9. DVD can be encoded in several prescribed frame sizes, the standards being 720x480, 704x480, or "half-D1" (352x480). 720x480 is recommended for 16:9 display.

In capture operations, NTSC analog tape is usually captured as 720x480 lossless YUY2 AVI files using huffyuv, Lagarith, or UT Video lossless codecs. Your VC500 is capable of doing this using VirtualDub or AmarecTv for capture software. The losssless AVi's can be filtered, edited, cut up, rejoined, and encoded into whatever final delivery format you want: anamorphic DVD or standard definition BluRay/AVCHD authored disc, various codecs for playback from USB hard drives and flash drives, media servers, set top boxes or smart TV's, or formatted for internet posting.

1280x720 is 16:9 display only and is a square-pixel, non-anamorphic frame format for BluRay or AVCHD. 1280x720p is "p" for progressive (non-interlaced). It can play only at frame rates 59.94 fps (NTSC), 50 fps (PAL), or film speeds 24fps or 23.976 fps. Note that frame rates of 29.97 or 25 fps are not valid for this format and can't be used. BluRay and AVCHD can be encoded as MPEG2 or h.264/AVC. Standard audio for both BluRay and DVD is Dolby Digital AC3 at 48KHz.

For BluRay or AVCHD, 1280x720 will not display at any aspect ratio other than 16:9. If you have a 4:3 NTSC analog video source, it must be captured for 720p as progressive 59.94 fps using an image size of 960x720, with black side pillars of 160-pixel width on each side of the image to bring the frame size to 1280x720.

Because motion picture film source from Hollywood is shot as progressive analog source, Hollywood and TV movies on tape are usually telecined for 29.97 fps playback, meaning that 2 of every 5 frames use a special interlace and field duplication structure to bring the original 23.976 fps film speed up to 29.97 fps for NTSC. Analog tapes with such movies are captured as 720x480i losssless AVI, then inverse telecined to restore the original 23.976 film speed and progressive frame structure. The video can then be upscaled to 960x480 with two 160-pixel side pillars for a 1280x720 frame display at 16:9, and encoding with either MPEG2, h.264/AVC, or VC1 at 23.976 fps, then authored for BluRay or AVCHD disc. Most classic Hollywood films weren't produced at 4:3 but at 1:37:1, so the image must be upscaled to 992x720 and the frame filled with black pixels accordingly. If the original tape source is letterboxed wide screen video, the letterbox must be cropped off and the image rescaled according to its motion picture aspect ratio (which could be 1.66:1, 1.77778:1, 1.86:1, 2.35:1, 2.4:1, or any of several other film ratios), then additional black bars and pillars must be added to fill the frame to 1280x720 for encoding and authoring.

Other members who have gone through this process with other capture devices will have to advise on the software and other components that you mention, which simply upscale a tape image to interlaced 1280x720 at the original tape speed (not valid for BluRay or AVCHD). Or they deinterlace (not good for telecined sources), and record 1280x720 as lossy h264 video -- a format not designed for editing.

But there is one major fact you should be aware of: High definition is not based on frame size. It's based on high resolution. Analog tape is a low-resolution source that will never look like HD no matter what you do to it, and no matter how much you spend on hardware or software to make it look like something it isn't.

There is no creation of new detail when upscaling low-resolution sources because you can't create detail from nothing. Upscaling makes absolutely no improvement. Low resolution sources upscaled to bigger frame sizes look exactly like small frames blown up into big frames. It's something that your media players, computer screens, external players, and TVs can already do for you with no extra work or expense on your part. And they can do it better than you can.

DVD Specs for PAL, NTSC, and NTC/FILM: https://www.videohelp.com/dvd#tech
BluRay/AVCHGD specs: https://www.videohelp.com/hd#tech

Last edited by sanlyn; 07-20-2017 at 07:27 AM.
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  #5  
07-20-2017, 08:46 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x77x View Post
whats the best way to capture JVC's 525i and use for DVDs?
The JVC you mentoned is S9500U, which is an NTSC machine. It doesn't output 525i. In fact I never heard of 525i. I think you refer to PAL format, 720x576. The S9500U/S9600U machines don't play PAL. Capture to 720x480 interlaced, YUY2, 29.97 fps, using huffyuv or Lagarith lossless codecs. With your VC500 you can use VirtualDub or AmerecTV to record lossless video. If you want to upscale or whatever, you'll have to learn to work with interlaced video and good restoration software like Avisynth's or Virtualdub's filters, and whatever NLE you want to use for cuts, joins, encoding, and authoring.

If you have questions about post process procedures or whatever, you can post short edited but otherwise unfiltered samples of your AVI captures for evaluation. Don't use YouTube and don't re-encode your samples. IF you have trouble making samples, just ask.


The latest VirtualDub capture guide also has special instructions for capture devices like the VC5090 USB.
Capturing with VirtualDub [Settings Guide]

Last edited by sanlyn; 07-20-2017 at 09:08 AM.
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  #6  
07-20-2017, 11:19 AM
Tester Tester is offline
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Actually, the analogue NTSC standard had (has) 525 scanning lines, of which 480 were visible (originally 483 active lines).
Hence the 525i in analogue nomenclature and 480i in digital terms.

The analogue PAL system, for that matter, had (has) 576 visible lines out of the full 625 (hence, 625i/576i).

Last edited by Tester; 07-20-2017 at 11:23 AM. Reason: Completion
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  #7  
07-20-2017, 12:10 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Hm. I thought it was 560 lines, and some Adobe apps take 480-line videos and try to make them 486. Anyway, yes, there are extra scanlines but no one captures them unless they're doing something esoteric like broadcast production work. They aren't useful visually. It's like the bottom-border head switching noise and side borders that show up in captures, which people treat in all sorts of ways to get rid of.
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  #8  
07-20-2017, 12:26 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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There are VDub batch scripts, but likely that's more trouble than it's worth. I always do that sort of thing manually. It's just part of the onus of post processing and would be a chore whether you're working with other formats, not just AVI. I never gave such chores a second thought, just something else that has to be done. Maybe others have suggestions.
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  #9  
07-20-2017, 12:26 PM
Tester Tester is offline
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Whatever
The point is the OP wasn't wrong in mentioning 525i for a NTSC S-VHS machine, and wasn't referring mistakenly to PAL.
YOU were wrong "having never heard of 525i".
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  #10  
07-20-2017, 12:29 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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At the moment I was thinking along different lines and it didn't occur to me until you posted and jogged my memory about issues I hadn't thought about for 20 years. Thanks for the correction. Takes me back a long way to more difficult days.
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  #11  
07-20-2017, 12:37 PM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
There are VDub batch scripts, but likely that's more trouble than it's worth. I always do that sort of thing manually. It's just part of the onus of post processing and would be a chore whether you're working with other formats, not just AVI. I never gave such chores a second thought, just something else that has to be done. Maybe others have suggestions.
Was this supposed to be a reply to my thread?
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  #12  
07-20-2017, 02:54 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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That's what I get for logging in on two computers at the same time.
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  #13  
07-23-2017, 06:03 AM
x77x x77x is offline
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so no matter what format you capture in (for DVD use) its still gonna get converted to MPG2...

and theres no sense in upscaling, unless your gonna blu-ray
(you cant turn shit into gold)

and yes i meant 525 lines... sorry
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  #14  
07-23-2017, 01:19 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x77x View Post
so no matter what format you capture in (for DVD use) its still gonna get converted to MPG2...
It could also be encoded as h.264. DVD is of couyrse MPEG2, but so is standard dfinition BluRay, which can be encoded as high bitrate MPEG or h.264.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x77x View Post
and theres no sense in upscaling, unless your gonna blu-ray
(you cant turn shit into gold)
No, you can't but you can clean up analog source and make it look petty good or at least better than it started. Of course you have to learn to do it and take the time for it. Or be like most folks, live with trash worse than YouTube, and blame the source. No upscaling required for standard definition BluRay, which is part of the BluRay spec and lets you encode at higher bitrates than standard-def DVD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x77x View Post
and yes i meant 525 lines... sorry
Yes, I wasn't in tune or fully awake on that one. However if you want to capture NTSC tape as 720x525, go ahead. The extra bottom lines contain only sync info that digital doesn't use.
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