Quantcast DMR-E55 for VHS pass-thru? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
09-16-2017, 09:28 AM
BarryTheCrab BarryTheCrab is offline
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Hi to all at this great forum.
Currently my setup(s) go like this...
JVC-HR-S5912U*>USB Hauppage850>Captured in Lagareth via PowerDirector 12**>target hard drive***

*Using the S-Video
**installed as 32-bit application to access AVI codecs. 640x480
***I find capturing to a separate hard drive from the OS makes a huge difference in fewer dropped frames.

I also have a Philips DVP3345V as a second unit to test tracking. No S-video.

I have no TBC in the line-up. At one time I had an CTB-100 but freezes and dropped frames forced me to return it, now I wonder if I had captured, at the time, to a different hard drive, I might have got better results. Thinking of getting another...

I have a trouble tape, which I attempted to capture via my HV30 and ExsateDV to see what happens. This gives me only DVPro codec, yucky noisy garbage in a massive file. The bending at the top of the video, however, was "fixed". The rest of the video however still showed a lot of wiggles.

So, I can get a DMR-E55 a few miles away, it has TBC, can I fit this into my workflow? Should I?

Please keep in mind I am asked to do these conversions from time to time, and I love the practice, I do get paid a little as a courtesy, but I want to do the best job possible and dislike failure. Budget is always a concern, as this is a hobby that can run amok, I don't need to tell you!

Words of wisdom and encouragement are welcome.

-- merged --

AAAARRRGH! I did another search here and this time I saw it, the DMR-E55 is not a pass-thru, and on top of that it stinks as a DVD recorder.
The quote from kpmedia..."The DMR-E55 doesn't do any NR. It's an infamous DVD recorder among the hobby TV community, because it creates blocky-quality DVDs on 2-hour and especially 4-hour modes. Then 1-hour mode has bitrate spikes that cause some DVD players to choke on discs made in this machine. It does not have passthrough, either."
So...
This brings me back to earth.
I need a TBC somewhere in my workflow, internal or external, may try an AVT-8710 from B & H for the return-ability, with the understanding it's probably identical to my previous CTB-100, but capture to a dedicated HD away from my OS. I may look to another VHS player, I see a some candidates on Facebook Marketplace with people cleaning out their old stuff.
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  #2  
09-16-2017, 09:07 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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There re two types of tbc's. A line tbc corrects wiggles, ripples, and line twitter and distortion for scanlines within individual frames. Line tbc's have no effect on overall signal or frame rate errors. Frame tbc's (like the AVT-8710) correct signal timing errors frame-to-frame and help ensure against dropped frames and bad audio sync. Frame tbc's have no effect on individual scanline timing errors inside individual frames.

You need both tbc's. A Panasonic ES10 or ES15 will have both types of tbc correction when used as pass-thru devices. Most other makes and models of DVD recorders either lack pass-thru ability or have weak tbc activity. The limitation with pass-thru tbc devices is that none of them will eliminate copy protection distortion with copy-protected tapes. To bypass copy protection you need an external full-frame tbc such as the AVT-8710 or TBC-1000.
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  #3  
09-16-2017, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
You need both tbc's. A Panasonic ES10 or ES15 will have both types of tbc correction when used as pass-thru devices. Most other makes and models of DVD recorders either lack pass-thru ability or have weak tbc activity. The limitation with pass-thru tbc devices is that none of them will eliminate copy protection distortion with copy-protected tapes. To bypass copy protection you need an external full-frame tbc such as the AVT-8710 or TBC-1000.
Remember that false anti-copy is a problem. Even when tapes are not actually using copy protection, the machine will think it does.

The DRM-ES10 does not contain a true TBC. Very TBC-like, yes. But it still fails. Very often, you have to run video from the VCR to the ES10, and the ES10 to the full-frame external TBC, to also appease capture cards. The ES10 may fail with a protected (or false "protected") tape, or it may simply pass the problem on. The capture card is then the issue, as many of these also obey anti-copy.

The ES10 has other side effects, so you'd not want to use it as a TBC anyway. Only use it when needed, meaning tapes with tearing.

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  #4  
09-17-2017, 05:52 PM
BarryTheCrab BarryTheCrab is offline
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Soooo...if I get an ES15, which are reasonably priced, I get both TBCs. It's a little larger than I wanted in my tiny studio but maybe I can move things around a little.
Currently I have a switcher so I can easily go back and forth with my 2 machines, but I wonder what my connections will look like now, and I assume to lose the Hauppage from the workflow.
By the way, thanks for the help.

After looking at your VCR list, the Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U D-VHS may actually be what I want, I have firewire, so that's a go. The price is reasonable for the units, less than an external TBC. But I won't have both types now. Budget restraints come to play. Okay, so there's a little to chew on. ES10 with both TBC or the Mitsu with TBC and NR. Both can be bought for less than $200, I am leaning to the Mitsu.
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09-17-2017, 07:00 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryTheCrab View Post
After looking at your VCR list, the Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U D-VHS may actually be what I want, I have firewire, so that's a go. The price is reasonable for the units, less than an external TBC. But I won't have both types now. Budget restraints come to play. Okay, so there's a little to chew on. ES10 with both TBC or the Mitsu with TBC and NR. Both can be bought for less than $200, I am leaning to the Mitsu.
What are you going to do with Firewire? Are you saying that you're capturing analog tape to DV? Really?

That's a shame.
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09-17-2017, 07:12 PM
BarryTheCrab BarryTheCrab is offline
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It looked as if Firewire was the connection for the Mitsu. Not my first choice.
As an experiment, and because I was running out of TBC-less options, my HV-30 HDV camera was used to see if the capture (WinDV) would be any better on this ONE tape. The big wiggle at the top is eliminated, but at the cost of quality, still plenty of other ugly tears and smears. But this ONE tape is on the cusp of death. I even contemplate sending it to you guys. Greens are pink, sky is a mess...comets. My usual capture is Lagareth, or pumped up Mpeg. I figure if I can get this pig I can get most any tape, maybe.
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  #7  
09-17-2017, 08:48 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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What you d with an ES15 or ES10 pass-thru unit is this:

Connect the VCR output to the ES's input (*line). Then connect the ES's s-video output to your hauppauge. You don't recfor with the ES devce, you just pass the signal through it to your capture card (that's why the ES10/15 is called a pass-thru device). If you have tape sources that need cleanup, you're shooting yourself in the foot by capturing to lossy formats, so I wouldn't advise using the ES for a recorder (it's not that good), nor would you want to capture analog tape to lossy DV.

MPEG and Dv are final delivery formats. Neither format is designed for restoration.

The ES10 and 15 have a very powerful line tbc and a workable frame-sync circuit. You can keep it cleaner by turning off the ES's builtin dnr (causes smearing). Obviously, no maker of a retail DVD recorder would have been allowed to sell a unit that did not honor copy protection, and Panasonic would be committing hari-kari if they sold such a unit. So, if you have copy protected tapes you will still need an external frame tbc strictly for that purpose. And frankly, an external tbc is double assurance against false copy protection accidents.

There are two alternatives to using a pass-thru for line tbc. The first alternative is to find a high-end VCR with built-in tbc. The trick is finding one that still works. Good luck with that. There are many VCR horror stories in this forum, and there will undoubtedly be more. The other alternative is no line tbc at all. I think a pass-thru unit will offer far higher quality than the latter choice.
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  #8  
09-19-2017, 07:49 AM
BarryTheCrab BarryTheCrab is offline
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I am in the hunt for a Panny ES15. My once-mighty HV-30 will return to the closet, no longer needed for pass-thru, ever.
This is a great place to learn, I'll be back...
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  #9  
09-23-2017, 04:36 AM
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I have an extra Mitsubishi D-VHS. PM if interested. You need to be VERY careful with D-VHS decks. They tend to have alignment issues, and your average eBay seller is NOT a video expert. They test with a retail SP VHS tape, and it works fine. But insert even a homemade SP tape, not to mention EP, and it fails. None of the D-VHS were ever strong tracking units.

The Firewire is mostly worthless.

The ES10/15 is great for tearing only. Don't use it for non-tearing tapes. It has side effects. You'll record video with some temporal noise and image artifacts.

You were right about the AVT-8710 ... just late to the party. The new units are terrible, known chipset flaws. You want the decade-old green unit. I have 1 left. PM if interested.

Trust me, I tried to be cheap about all this in years past. It never worked. When you have the right equipment, you can focus on the video, and not have to continuously screw around with the half-baked makeshift setup that never truly works perfectly as needed.

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09-23-2017, 08:29 AM
BarryTheCrab BarryTheCrab is offline
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With all my reading here I got the impression the ES15 was a real cure all, at a decent price-point. Would I use it in conjunction with a connected TBC, too?
See PM
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  #11  
09-23-2017, 09:29 AM
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The DMR-ES15 is quite good for what it's good for -- which isn't as a TBC replacement.

I was the one who discovered the pass-through ability of the DMR-ES10 unit right after it came out. Until my posts at this site, VH, AVS, etc, nobody had ever considered a DVD recorder for capture passthrough. At least not that I had ever read anywhere, and I've always been big in the video conversion scene. At the time, I was actually experimenting with something else. It was a complete fluke that I saw it happen. Then when every new DVD recorder would come out, people would test the passthrough ability.

Another claim to fame. Nothing big, but it amuses me.

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  #12  
09-23-2017, 09:50 AM
BarryTheCrab BarryTheCrab is offline
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I am a little baffled at this..."You need both tbc's. A Panasonic ES10 or ES15 will have both types of tbc correction when used as pass-thru devices." The statement leads me to believe the ES15 (it's a little smaller so I chose that) eliminates the need for an external device TBC. You can understand my confusion.

Please note: I am in construction, do site work, lay pipe, engineer grades, etc. My hobby is photography, videography, and especially editing, capturing tape is fun for me, but you'll see me make mis-steps here so bear with me.
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09-23-2017, 10:02 AM
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Think of an analog signal as dirty water that you want to drink. Really dirty water.
- First you strain it, get all the crud out.
- Then you'd boil off.
- Then you may add chemicals.

That's a video workflow. Each device removes crud from the signal (sometimes visual, sometimes not), in order to make it potable/drinkable by the capture setup.

Sometimes each device is called a "TBC", but each is actually different, as is a filter, fire, and chemicals.

Make more sense?

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  #14  
09-25-2017, 05:21 AM
BarryTheCrab BarryTheCrab is offline
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For the most part, it does, but my budget is Walmart water, not Fiji, so I must take that into consideration. Anyway, I lost the bid on the ES15, but there are plenty more should I find the need.
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  #15  
09-25-2017, 09:29 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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The ES10 or the ES15 will suffice. The ES10 is a tad cleaner but both work well. The advantage with pass thru it that with these two units the line-level tbc is pretty powerful (but turn off the built-in dnr) and works about as well a the line tbc in many high-end units. And it frees you from depending on one VCR. The disadvantage is that the nominal frame-level tbc is adequate for steady frame sync but won't adjust the signal to the point of overriding copy protection elements (as with most retail hardware and software, Panasonic was obligated to observe copy protection rules). This means that on occasion you can get your hands on a tape in such poor condition that it outputs false copy protection errors, resulting in image distortion and odd playback behavior. After about 200 tapes in my old collection, this happened only three times -- and I always used some very top-line VCR's, one of which had a built-in line tbc but which generated false signal errors anyway. The only fix was a "real" full-scale frame tbc, my original old AVT-8710. Had I not had it available, I would have had that tape captured losslessly by a capture service such as the one here at digitlfaq. Do what you can with a pass-thru unit, but be aware that in the long run an external 100% full-service frame tbc is the better solution
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  #16  
09-25-2017, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
on occasion you can get your hands on a tape in such horrible condition that it outputs false copy protection errors, resulting in certain forms of image distortion.
Nope. "Horrible condition" not needed. Just yesterday, by coincidence, I was testing a deck, no TBC in the chain. I was using a typical 1st-gen/master TV recording tape -- SP mode even! -- and something freaked out. Either ATI card or Panasonic ES10, maybe even both. It saw copy protection where none existed. Add in a TBC, error gone.

It can strike at any time.

@barry:
Why does this happen, you ask? Because anti-copy is an artificial video error. Actual errors trip it too.

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  #17  
09-26-2017, 04:00 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Nope. "Horrible condition" not needed. Just yesterday, by coincidence, I was testing a deck, no TBC in the chain. I was using a typical 1st-gen/master TV recording tape -- SP mode even! -- and something freaked out. Either ATI card or Panasonic ES10, maybe even both. It saw copy protection where none existed. Add in a TBC, error gone.

It can strike at any time.
Agreed. Since I had an AVT hooked up most of the time, in my case there might have been more than 3 of those episodes. So in case there's no chance of finding or affording a working external tbc, it would be more feasible to buy a lossless working capture and finish the cleanup DIY. I don't think this thread is discussing that many tapes.

I can't agree with this:

Quote:
The ES10/15 is great for tearing only. Don't use it for non-tearing tapes. It has side effects. You'll record video with some temporal noise and image artifacts.
They do have subtle side effects, but so do high-end VCR's. The ES10/15 can fix more than just tearing, as I've found in my own experience. Their dnr can be turned off (it's no better than the smeary dnr in any high-end JVC or Panasonic) and other effects can be worked around. External tbc's have their own effects as well, so let's not pretend they're examples of pristine output. There were times when I had to unhook my AVT because of the nature of its gamma hump on a few sources, an effect that could often be a headache to repair in post processing and easier to fix than 5 or 6 jumpy frames in a 225,000 frame capture. There isn't a component out there that doesn't have one kind of side effect or another, and you just have to fix it later. It's better than no correction at all, and there are plenty of examples of the latter.

This thread hails from the day when the website concerned was more useful for good capture technique than it is today: Who uses a DVD recorder as a line tbc and what do you use?

In the end, given enough tapes to work with (which won't take many) you'll need a more powerful full-action external frame-level tbc sooner or later, or have the capture made for you.
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  #18  
10-03-2017, 05:25 PM
U-max U-max is offline
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Does ES10 or ES15 keep full D1 resolution (PAL) on passthrough or is always cropped?
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  #19  
10-03-2017, 08:32 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Resolution doesn't change on pass-thru. Why would it?
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  #20  
10-04-2017, 05:21 AM
U-max U-max is offline
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So this "side effect" (704x480) only affects LP recording format but doesn't affect passthrough, right?
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