Weird VHS tape glitch: what is it, can I fix it? [SOLVED]

holocron · #1 01-19-2016, 04:07 AM

So, I'm trying to capture some old VHS video, and came across a tape that is glitching out in a way I never saw before. Anyone know what would cause this?

http://youtu.be/i6n883VefY0

There's no sign of physical damage to the tape and I know this ran fine the last time I played it, but that was at least one VHS ago. It doesn't look like a normal tracking issue. It's like the tape is very briefly speeding up and then slowing down again. Of the usual issues I was able to look up, I didn't see any 'error' that described what this looks like. This is happening on two different VHS machines now.

Update! See solution in post #22. http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post51813

sanlyn · #2 01-19-2016, 10:44 AM

Did YouTube do that to your video? I ask because we have no idea what an original looks like after UTube gets through with it. Meanwhile we have no info about how the tape was played or captured.

It's old, damaged. wrinkled tape. You need a line tbc and a frame-level tbc. Those are the only solutions.

holocron · #3 01-19-2016, 12:06 PM

It was captured using a DVDXpressDX2 USB device. CapWiz is the software it runs on.

The video source is a 4-head Magnavox hybrid DVD Player/VCR. (DV220MW9 if you're curious about the specific model)

What you're seeing on youtube is very true to the original captured file. And in case you're curious, the video also looks like this when run directly to a TV, so I know the capture device has nothing to do with it either.

sanlyn · #4 01-19-2016, 12:33 PM

Thanks for the details.

A skewed image and frame hopping are definite signs of scanline sync errors, for which you need a line-level tbc -- not to mention a tape player that doesn't have capstan pinch roller problems. To avoid dropped frames with bad tape you need a frame-level tbc such an AVT-8710 or TBC-1000, or similar device. There's no way to fix the damage in software after capture. Of course, the tape itself might be in such bad shape that you'll still have problems. This almost looks like SVHS tape played as VHS, among other things, but that's a wild guess as we've seen this before.

Tape damage isn't always visible.

[EDIT] Forgot to mention that a tape's frame timing signal is in the audio track. That could be damaged. a frame-level tbc rebuilds that signal on output -- at least, as well as is possible. A faulty pinch roller can cause similar problems.

holocron · #5 01-20-2016, 11:02 AM

Alrighty, I'm 'in the market' now and found an SR-V101US for sale. One thing I can't find though is how to tell a frame-level from a line-level TBC, at least as far as reading specs on sales sites is concerned. Even the AVT-8710 you mentioned on B&H's site doesn't seem to specify, at least not with that specific terminology.

sanlyn · #6 01-20-2016, 11:45 AM

The SR-V101US has a line-level tbc. The AVT-8710 is a frame timing sync tbc.

Most pro and prosumer VCRs have line-level tbc's. Most under-$1000 external tbc's are frame-level tbc's. That's a general rule you can follow.

Prosumer vcr's from JVC and Panasonic have been pretty much been used to death over the years. I'd be careful of buying from auction sites like eBay, where you can expect anything. A reputable pro dealer recommended here who rebullds prosumer vcr's is TGrantPhoto. Note that rebuilding these vcr's is no easy task, so don't expect to get away dirt cheap.

holocron · #7 03-22-2016, 11:06 AM

Yeah, that's who I'm buying it from. I actually found another site that 'claims' to have new, unopened units, but the phone number is out of service and the address points to a street that apparently doesn't exist. I'm thinking scam, unless the owner replies to my email and explains a few things sufficiently.

Thanks for the help. I'll let you know how it goes.

-- merged --

Well, I'm back. Still was never able to recover the tape I demoed a couple months ago.

I currently have a Panasonic AG-1980 and I'm quite happy with the device. The image quality is beautiful.

To my surprise though, it couldn't properly play an SP compilation tape that I had made to actually last. I've recovered plenty of EP tapes, and then this one SP tape has almost no sound that it seems unable to synch up. Yet this tape plays fine on any other player I own.

So, I'm going to take a guess there's something out there that can play the other tape. I'm into trying to track down the right VHS, but I'm wondering, is there an archive out there that has pictures of all the different brands and models that have existed over the years? I have no doubt that I would know an old VHS I owned if I saw it, or at least a very similar model that would probably play exactly the same. But obviously just going to random garage sales and salvation army stores isn't going to be very helpful in this regard.

sanlyn · #8 03-22-2016, 11:58 AM

Thanks for getting back.

Where did you get that AG-1980?

holocron · #9 03-22-2016, 12:06 PM

Tgrant Photo

lordsmurf · #10 03-22-2016, 02:23 PM

I don't like the "wee-whirr" it made at the beginning of playback. Your capture card is capturing electronic interference noise. That's never been a good capture card.

Perhaps we should look at one of the problem tapes?

holocron · #11 03-22-2016, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I don't like the "wee-whirr" it made at the beginning of playback. Your capture card is capturing electronic interference noise. That's never been a good capture card.

Perhaps we should look at one of the problem tapes?

It's not the capture card and I've done dozens of tapes now with no issues at all. This tape wigs out with the player plugged directly into the TV as well. I'll capture the same clip through a couple of different VHS players so you can see how each one handles it.

themaster1 · #12 03-22-2016, 07:06 PM

i know this site has plenty of good vcr's for sale

holocron · #13 04-23-2016, 12:41 PM

Here's the same section of tape played back on 5 different devices (the Panasonic was done twice, with and without the TBC enabled).

http://www.youtube.com/edit?video_id=zoZaR3kOPcI

It's worth noting that I saw the Panasonic try switching between SP, LP, and SLP multiple times, as if it couldn't decide what speed it wanted to play (you can tell this is happening by how the sound repeatedly changes pitch)

sanlyn · #14 04-23-2016, 12:48 PM

No one's going to sign into an account to watch a video that's been re-processed by someone else anyway. Seriously.

holocron · #15 04-23-2016, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

No one's going to sign into an account to watch a video that's been re-processed by someone else anyway. Seriously.

What do you mean reprocessed by someone else? If you're implying that I took this tape somewhere to be played with, no. These are all VHS players that I own. If that ISN'T what you meant, I don't know what you're implying as an alternative.

Either way, Lordsmurf seemed interested.

latreche34 · #16 04-23-2016, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holocron

Here's the same section of tape played back on 5 different devices (the Panasonic was done twice, with and without the TBC enabled).

http://www.youtube.com/edit?video_id=zoZaR3kOPcI

It's worth noting that I saw the Panasonic try switching between SP, LP, and SLP multiple times, as if it couldn't decide what speed it wanted to play (you can tell this is happening by how the sound repeatedly changes pitch)

Your link is corrupted.

holocron · #17 04-25-2016, 04:48 AM

Well, frag. Sorry. Fixed.
https://youtu.be/zoZaR3kOPcI

-- merged --

And... ugh. Sorry, Sanlyn, I think I just figured out what you meant. The link I posted earlier was a bad one, and there was no intent to make anyone "log in" to anything. That was my bad and it should've been a simple youtube link. Also, on the reprocessing, yeah. I had no reason to think that this was an issue, as there's NOTHING subtle about the problems I'm encountering with this tape and would never guess it could get misconstrued as a digital compression issue. Anyway, try this instead.

http://www.dropbox.com/s/bbebje6u9ei...litch.mp4?dl=0

latreche34 · #18 04-25-2016, 01:44 PM

From looking at the different segments of VCR's playback I can tell the tape is at fault, Although some VCR's such as AG-1980 and the Sanyo played it better but the sections where the sound speeds up and mute and the jerky video happens at the exact same spots of the tape, My guess is this tape was recorded with a VCR that has pinch roller problem and/or tracking problems and therefore you cannot recover what was already damaged.

NJRoadfan · #19 04-25-2016, 05:29 PM

Was the tape recorded on multiple times? The beginning segment with the tape playing too fast is common when you do a new SP recording on top of an old EP recording. Basically, the first couple of seconds of the old EP control track don't get overwritten so the VCR thinks that segment is EP speed. The rest of the tape was likely recorded on a damaged VCR, one that was severely misaligned.

If you have the original recording VCR still, it likely will play the tape fine. Otherwise, try manual tracking. If there isn't enough adjustment, get a cheap throwaway VCR and "break" its tracking to match the tape.

lordsmurf · #20 03-06-2017, 04:51 AM

It's really fun when you have a totally fubar tape to test hardware.

... and that's about all it's good for. The tape is signal-damaged, probably physically damaged, and the recording quality is craptastic. If this was made on the silver Panasonic referenced in the new thread, know that I have some crappy tapes just like this myself. Because we had that same rotten VCR from about 87-93. Only some tapes were like this, mostly cheap tapes near the end of its life. It was probably misaligned.

This is also a reason why I started to research video, in 1992.

Note: Year-old post, but was reference in current thread from same user.