High-end Video8 decks vs. Digital 8 camcorders?

[AJAX1]

I have been capturing Pal video8 tapes for some time now. However I´m not totally satisfied with the probably more important element in my workflow the vcr/camcorder player.

The two devices I have been using so far have been a combo video8-Hi8 /VHS Sony SLV-T2000 and a digital8 camcorder Sony DCR-TRV238E (with TBC ,DNR and pass-through feature ).Both devices have some pitfalls in what capture quality is concerned. The combo deck as actual smear and the D8 cam as “color edge issue” (on the overscan ). Despite the color edge issue picture quality provided by the D8 cam is clearly better.

However I`m been thinking if a High-end ( pro or prosumer) video8 deck ( as for example Sony ev-s7000/9000) could eventually provide some improvement ( even if small ) in quality and actually avoiding the problems presented by the actual players.

Also if any of these decks have any type of manual tracking ( yes I know that video8 has automatic tracking ) and dropout compensation it will be a welcome bonus as I have several tapes with tracking problems due to loose tape guides in the original camcorder( that doesn’t work anymore)

I am in Pal land and the devices I see more often localized in Europe ( as to avoid import charges) and seem more easy to eventually buy are:

Sony EV-S550E, EV-S700, EV-S880, EV-S900 , EV-S1000E , EV-S9000E

Most of these video8 decks I think are from 1994-2000 so they are quite old and tbc circuitry could not be as good as more recent D8 cam or G200 type portable players, also they can have worn video heads and other problems , but also usually these high-end devices use to have better and sophisticated internal electronics ( (even if some models more ones then others could potential or in fact have the old capacitors leakage issue for instance) .

If anybody knows about these video8 decks and can give any recommendations as if it they will be worth or not to get some additional quality benefit over the D8 cams and have some eventual extra benefits as manual track, dropout compensation , or any other I welcome your advice.

[dpalomaki]

The D8 devices generally provided firewire output, a potential convenience depending on your workflow. But firewire output is a DV stream, a format not favored for restoration work. I'm not convinced that a D8 camcorder would work as well as a dedicated high-end VCR as a Hi8/8mm capture source. I've used a GV-D200 D-8 "Walkman" as a source player for Hi8 tapes as well, it offers TBC and DNR (both can be set to on or off). But tape handling is slow.

An unknown (at least to me) is how much internal uncontrolable picture "enhancement" these consumer machines do.

The EV-S7000 is a Hi8 VCR (in my case NTSC), with a number of nice features including TBC, and an excellent control panel, remote, and excellent tape handling. It offers some picture adjustment capability including hue, color, sharpness, and Y/C delay (color alignment), tracking for slow-mo and 2x playback (but not normal speed playback), three levels of DNR (off, normal, maximum). It has other features mainly of use for analog tape editing such as time code, insert editing, and audio dub.

Sad to report I've not done a critical comparison of the two machines using the same Hi8 source tapes. But as with most analog system, I suspect each would do better with some tapes than with others.

I would not recommend lower end Hi8/8mm VCRs such as the EVC100. I believer the DB equipment would do better.

[NJRoadfan]

Stick with the camcorders. They are much newer and usually do a decent job quality-wise. I wouldn't worry about the edge color issue if its entirely in over scan, just matte it black. There were a handful of Hi-8 camcorders released in 1997-99 that offer the same playback quality as the D8 models (TBC, DNR, Stereo audio, and XR mode playback). They may not have the edge color issue if its a concern. The Video Walkmans are basically the camcorder playback mech. minus the camera portion. They should perform identical.

[Goldwingfahrer]

AJAX1

missing in your list
Sony EVO 9700P
and the
Sony EVO 9800P

"Quick reference of all Sony V8 PALRecorders in Europe"
Image 1

not everything in English "" statement "" Picture 2

Picture 3 Sony EVO 9800P

[AJAX1]

Thank you so much for your advices.

However even if I´m relatively satisfied with my video8 captures with my D8 camcorder I´m probably willing to take my chances with a Sony EV-S9000E PAL, the Sony video8 deck flagship in Europe ( I think the equivalent to the EV_S7000 in the NSTC world ), if I can find one with a reasonable price and in good conditions ( it will however always be a high price ). Users experience and results obtained with this deck are scarce, but I found some posts like this one on videohelp

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/2...and-Hi8-guides

Where the owner seems to get some extra quality . Probably it will be the only deck together with the EVO indicated by Goldwingfahrer that could eventually provide some very small extra quality ,I know however that this is not granted it will depend very much of equipment condition and from tapes itself.
For instance it seems the TBC and DNR are quite effective in this device . In the D8 camcorder the best for me as been to capture with TBC and DNR off . DNR does nothing in the D8 and the TBC almost also nothing and it increases the noise a little.

The evo units are even more difficult to find and usually also more expensive then the EV-S it´s why I thinking in the ev-s9000. Also this unit seems to be more permissive in what tracking errors are concerned and I have some tapes that I want to recover if possible.( if not I will have to adjust the tapes guides in a cheaper unit not this one)

I have already found a very limited number of these devices but the ones with a better price don’t have an original RC . Reading the manual I think that this particular unit almost replicates all the rc buttons and commands on the recorder itself in a special retractable console, but I don’t know for sure .

Does someone knows if all buttons and commands are replicated in the unit console ?
If this is true the RC is not that important and a compatible RC device that does 80/90% of the functions could be OK. Also some refer a original FB , what is FB?

I´m hoping to get results if I get the device ( expectations are however limited ), but prepared to have none. Has video 8 has very limited quality any benefit will be welcome. If I don’t get any results I can always resell and probably will not lose much money.

[lordsmurf]

I have never liked Video8, Hi8, or Digital8 decks. Cameras tend to work better.

[VideoTechMan]

I have and am now starting to use the EVO-9800A Hi8 deck and for my needs it works well. It also has what most lower end decks doesnt have and that's timecode. With my unit i can write timecode on a prerecorded tape and edit it more precisely with my edit controller. My needs are a bit different from yours but when looking for the EVO based decks you have to ask about the hours which many of these units have alot of hours on them. Plus you would need XLR adapters to whatever recording device you're using.

[dpalomaki]

I believe a likely problem with just about all the gear (including Hi8) from the mid to late 1990s is the chronic issue with surface mount device (SMD) capacitors. I see it in my Canon L2 camcorder - dim viewfinder and noisy record/playback of tapes. But the camera section appears to be OK at the analog output jacks.

The Sony EV-S9000 (and likely the NTSC version (EV-S7000) has reported power supply problems due to failing electrolytic capacitors. In a test yesterday, playback from my 1997 era EV-S7000 showed some chroma noise that was not apparent on the 2000 era GV-D200 D8 Walkman.

It is not just video gear. A couple years ago I worked on a 1995 vintage Shure LX wireless system receiver that had SMD capacitors in the compander circuit fail resulting in highly distorted audio output.

I would be cautious of any electronic gear with SMD from before around 2000, and the stuff made since then may just be too new to have the issue develop yet since it appears to take around 10 to 15 years to develop.

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

In a test yesterday, playback from my 1997 era EV-S7000 showed some chroma noise that was not apparent on the 2000 era GV-D200 D8 Walkman.

Good points in the rest of your post, but regarding this specific test, I don't think the results are meaningful.

All analog playback samples I've seen from Digital8 equipment feature forced chroma noise reduction, regardless of the "DNR" setting being switched off. It becomes obvious if you view the chroma channels in isolation using Avisynth.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

All analog playback samples I've seen from Digital8 equipment feature forced chroma noise reduction, regardless of the "DNR" setting being switched off. It becomes obvious if you view the chroma channels in isolation using Avisynth.

Isn't that just DV being DV?
4:2:2 > 4:1:1 = reduced chroma

[premiumcapture]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Isn't that just DV being DV?
4:2:2 > 4:1:1 = reduced chroma

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital8
I would agree, D8 essentially being DV.

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Isn't that just DV being DV?
4:2:2 > 4:1:1 = reduced chroma

No, and it's present on the analog outputs as well. The chroma is smoothed over (spatial NR) and there are after-images briefly visible at scene cuts (temporal NR).

The forum software sure doesn't like my extra-wide "scope" images. See ZIP file.

Digital8 Chroma 3DNR temporal ghosting example - 2 - After SC, DCR-TRV340 lossless.jpg

I couldn't do the GV-D800 captures to lossless (not my equipment), and unfortunately there are visible compression artifacts even with the MPEG-2 settings of AVerMedia PowerDirector maxed-out.

Format settings, GOP           : M=3, N=15
Format settings, picture struc : Frame
Bit rate mode                  : Variable
Bit rate                       : 23.9 Mbps
Maximum bit rate               : 25.0 Mbps

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

All analog playback samples I've seen from Digital8 equipment feature forced chroma noise reduction, regardless of the "DNR" setting being switched off.

^ This is possibly not true. The DCR-TRV480 (composite-only model) outputs noisy chroma. But I believe what we're seeing there is composite noise aggravated by comb filter errors.

[lordsmurf]

Oh, I see. Over-aggressive NR. But is it possibly just that one camera used for your test?

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Oh, I see. Over-aggressive NR. But is it possibly just that one camera used for your test?

My test above used two different players. A check of samples from two PAL models shows the same spatial chroma NR, but I'm not sure about temporal.

[NJRoadfan]

I can confirm chroma ghosting with late model NTSC Sony Hi-8 and D8 analog playback. Usually the ghosting lasts for 1-2 frames after a scene change even with DNR turned off.

[SFtheGreat]

Were there even Digital8 VCRs?

Aside from that walkmans.

Also, where is the guide for 8mm VCRs in the style of the VHS guide?

Though I guess, the first line would be "These days, if it works, it's good enough".

[dpalomaki]

Adding to this old thread, I can confirm that after several hours of power on, the EV-S7000 chroma issue I mentioned above improved noticeably, probably thanks to capacitors reforming. Not as good as new, but not as bad as it was. However, the GV-D200 output was still "more watchable."

[lordsmurf]

Wrong post (new topic in this thread) moved here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...a-capture.html