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  #1  
02-04-2018, 12:09 AM
Jtm732 Jtm732 is offline
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I am having issues with the quality of my new VCR archiving setup.

This is my current setup:

Equipment
  • Capture card - Tevion DVD maker (not sure of model) - I installed a driver I found that matched for the device ID, virtual dub picks it up. I do not have a CD-ROM or DVD-ROM.
  • TBC - A green AVT-8710 - I think I reset all the settings
  • VCR - SR-VS30
  • Cables: Monoprice S-Video cables and (unknown brand) RCA audio cables.
Computer
  • 1x eVGA GTX 1080Ti FTW3
  • 1x ASRock x299 Taichi
  • G.SKILL TridentZ RGB Series 64GB (4x 16GB) 3200 DDR4
  • 1x Intel 7820X Skylake-X CPU
  • 1x 10TB Western Digital Gold Enterprise Class (Helium filled)
  • 2x Samsung M.2 1TB 980 Pro
  • 2x ViewSonic XG2703-GS 27" 2560x1440 165 Hz IPS G-Sync Monitor
  • Windows 10
Video done on current setup using VirtualDub with no compression: https://i.imgur.com/Z2gHVUa.png
Here is a gif demonstrating it: https://i.imgur.com/d2seRbB.gifv

Video done with $1 VCR (RCA cables, no TBC (internal and external)) and elgato capture device to mp4: https://i.imgur.com/qakdT7G.png
Here is a gif demonstrating it: https://i.imgur.com/UgwksGB.gifv

Here is a side-by-side comparison: https://i.imgur.com/Xjn0ola.png (Left is new/current setup, Right is old setup using $1 VCR)

The current setup seems to have a weird interference pattern in it. It might be normal for S-Video, but it reminds me of texturing in old VGA games mixed with horizontal lines and pixel fraying on the edges of objects. See: VGA Graphics

It could be because the $1 VCR was blurrier, but I am not sure if this is an issue with my S-Video cables or my setup or this is simply just normal. Keep in mind the gifs above also make the quality even lower.

Just in case, I want to link to the actual video that suffers from the weird quality: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mcqa9skuuv...uttbc.avi?dl=1 (I did not use an external TBC in this video, so I know it is not the external TBC). Warning! The chef cuts himself at the end, so please do not watch the last 3-5 seconds if you are squeamish.

The driver I am using for my Tevion DVD maker card was some random driver I found online as Windows 10 could not find a suitable driver. The driver I found did match the Hardware Id of the Tevion device, but was not made by Tevion.
Here is a screenshot of the device driver: https://i.imgur.com/wGU3ThQ.png
Here is a screenshot of the Hardware Id: https://i.imgur.com/J0kaSuD.png

Here are the video compression settings I am using in VirtualDub 1.9.11: https://i.imgur.com/RLtMuUK.png
I can also confirm I have no filters set, everything is completely default in "VirtualDub 1.9.11 + Filters" which I downloaded here: VirtualDub with Filters Pre-loaded + HuffYUV [DOWNLOADS]

Last edited by Jtm732; 02-04-2018 at 12:22 AM.
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  #2  
02-04-2018, 12:21 AM
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The card isn't an issue. It's an Empia, like the ATI 600 USB.

That capture looks fine. I think what you're seeing here is the overscan area of a VHS tape, which shows the info normally hidden on a TV. Most video is actually 704x480 (or thereabouts if analog transmission) broadcasted, with black pillars on the sides. And those are rarely centered. At bottom you'll see head-switching noise, and close captions at top.

The image is fine.

At very most, there may be a tiny tracking offset (not really an "error"). Maybe. Hard to tell with this clip. You'd hit EP/SP on remote, followed by up/down on pad to track it better. Sometimes just turning off auto-tracking does it too. Or maybe eject the tape and reinsert, as the leader of a tape can can a tape to mistrack once it begins. And again, not even sure this is an issue, as clip not good for showing it.

No dropped frames.
Audio seems in sync.
Color/levels seem fine.

I think you're good to go.

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  #3  
02-04-2018, 12:26 AM
Jtm732 Jtm732 is offline
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I updated my post several times to illustrate the issue more clearly. I'm not sure of your reply because I think you are talking about the edges of the video, but I am talking about the strange horizontal noise throughout the stream. Maybe I am misunderstanding?

See the side-by-side comparison: https://i.imgur.com/Xjn0ola.png

It becomes very clear if you watch both videos. I can provide my original video from the $1 VCR if you want it.

You are probably talking about the issue I had mentioned about a week ago, but that turned out to be just part of the video.
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  #4  
02-04-2018, 12:30 AM
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That's not noise -- it's interlacing.

I need to redo this guide: http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/vid...interlaced.htm
To be more like this one: http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/vid...ifferences.htm

Look at those images.

This is normal, expected, desired.

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  #5  
02-04-2018, 12:34 AM
Jtm732 Jtm732 is offline
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Ah, yes, interlacing was the word I was looking for. This is desired? It just is very interlaced creating a lot of noise on the edges. Anyway to change this?
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  #6  
02-04-2018, 12:36 AM
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When viewed on TV, it's invisible to your eye. If you deinterlace, as per those guides (again, I need to update them), you lose quality. How much depends on the method. But still a loss. And when making DVD or even BD, not needed. The only time to deinterlace, or change DAR to 4x3, is when encoding a copy for web streaming platform like Youtube. But leave your master archives interlaced.

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  #7  
02-04-2018, 12:39 AM
Jtm732 Jtm732 is offline
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Ok, I did not know this is normal as I only had experience with an Elgato capture device that probably deinterlaced automatically (hence the blurry quality). I'll try to run some deinterlacing on this sample to see the results. As far as your reference to TVs, do you mean old CRT TVs or does that include 4k/8k TVs?
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  #8  
02-04-2018, 12:43 AM
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All TVs. New HDTVs support interlacing.

In fact, most of your HD channels are interlaced -- and you never knew it.

Avisynth QTGMC is honestly the only method worse using now. And that's something I need to make abundantly clear on the interlace guides.

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  #9  
02-04-2018, 12:56 AM
Jtm732 Jtm732 is offline
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I'm guessing my old video went through a lot of filters because it does look less noisy as well. It looks very smooth, albeit, very blurry. Does QTGMC also denoise? From what I am reading you can denoise with it as well? Here is a triple comparison I just did just playing around:

https://i.imgur.com/3suDWrQ.jpg

Notice the original one I had was very non-noisy and deinterlaced... obviously designed for web streaming. I'm guessing my new setup picks up a lot more details, but at the same time I am not applying the right filters to denoise it? I should try the $1 VCR in VirtualDub to compare.
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  #10  
02-04-2018, 01:02 AM
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That $1 VCR isn't just blurry. There are chroma errors, levels errors, etc. See the rainbow muck all over the image, and the hot/yellowish washed out areas? That's really bad.

Also please try to attach images to the forum. Imgur gets deleted.

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  #11  
02-04-2018, 01:09 AM
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I hope the imgur doesn't get deleted. It is attached to my account so it isn't an anonymous upload. I will upload using the forum next time. I was almost able to achieve the $1 VCR setup by applying a super crazy smoothing blur on it. I do think the blur was even crazier on the $1 one. So as far as guides, what should I follow exactly for setting this all up? I don't even know if my green TBC is operating as I reset all the settings. I have looked over guides here, and while I understand them, I do wonder which exact filters I should be using from capturing from a VCR. I know for raw archiving I probably don't need anything, but I do suspect many will be watching these videos not on TVs, so I might want to make it more presentable for that medium.
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02-04-2018, 01:13 AM
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I'd still appreciate it those can be attached to the forum in a post. Too many conversations on too many sites are broken when images disappear. And I don't mean in a day, month, or year -- but a decade from now, when somebody is research something.

There's really nothing to setup on the TBC. The AVT-8710 has some weenie proc amp adjustments, and then you can select the format (NTSC, etc). If you reset everything, then it's feeding an unprocessed signal.

If you're able to get VirtualDub to capture with frame drops/inserts, you're good to go. Run a long test, full tape, and report back.

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  #13  
02-04-2018, 01:30 AM
Jtm732 Jtm732 is offline
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I will do. If I did in fact reset the TBC, I am not sure if I should do anything.

I will run a full tape and report back.

I did have one more question relating to all this quality stuff. I watched the videos on my TV and the interlacing seemed significantly less, but I did notice a big difference between the $1 setup and the new setup. I wanted you to see it as it was hard to explain, but I am wondering if any noise filtering will get rid of this or if this is just a sign of the video degrading in quality? Attached is two images. While the one does have the interlacing, it also has a lot of weird particles throughout the image, this seems to only really be clear in certain parts of the video, so I am thinking it is the video, but again I am not sure as this type of overall noise does seem to exist even watching it on the TV. The file names should be clear enough to distinguish them.

I'm thinking this issue is a tracking issue.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg old vcr.jpg (40.1 KB, 14 downloads)
File Type: jpg new vcr.jpg (64.8 KB, 14 downloads)
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02-04-2018, 02:17 AM
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You're seeing the true detail of VHS, including grain noise. That cheap VCR smeared everything out. You can simply do noise reduction (NR) after capture, if needed/wanted. Then you'l get the sharp details, no chroma noise, accurate colors, with less noise.

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  #15  
02-05-2018, 03:09 PM
Jtm732 Jtm732 is offline
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So I did an entire tape. Not sure if I was supposed to change any brightness settings during the capture, but I didn't. I used HuffYUV (non-MT version). I've been trying to make the grainy noise go away, but without luck. I've tried many filters such as the MSU, NeatVideo, etc. I even tried some noise reduction methods with Premier Pro, it just looks blurry. I'm not sure what to do to make this look sharp and remove the noise. I am also apply the deinterlacing initially (internal one in VD). Any recommendations? This would be for computer viewing, not archiving.
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  #16  
02-05-2018, 06:13 PM
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Sample clip is needed, attach to forum, 100mb max.

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  #17  
02-05-2018, 10:11 PM
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Attached is a Direct Stream copy segment of the video. This version is interlaced. As far as my best results so far, I have applied deinterlace (internal) and Film Dirt Cleaner (http://www.infognition.com/dirtcleaner/)

This is not the best segment, but to protect people's privacy, I have opted for this video segment instead. Notice the constant grainy dots moving around. Notice the grainy / noise around the glass (even after applying deinterlacing filters). It seems most things simply blur to remove the noise, but I am trying to keep it crisp without blurring. I can supply the video segment where someone's face is shown, however I can crop it, is that acceptable? You must have HuffYUV to view this video.


Attached Files
File Type: avi VHS-JM-01_seg.avi (86.72 MB, 8 downloads)
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  #18  
02-06-2018, 08:55 PM
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How are you viewing this? At native 720x480, it's not noticeable. On the old CRT TVs and under 36" sizes, you'd never have seen any of this. So, again, you're simple seeing true VHS quality on a modern HD display. View it larger than 100%, and it's noticeable.

To hide this, to filter it, you need temporal filtering.

VirtualDub:
- dynamic NR
- temporal smoother
- median
- temporal cleaner

Avisynth has more complex filtering options.

But be aware that temporal NR has side effects, aka artifacts, from pushing it too far. So testing is required. Your sample is essentially static, so I could filter the snot out of it, if I wanted to. So in terms of a sample, it's not too helpful for the filter. For showing just the noise, however, it was.


Attached Files
File Type: mp4 VHS-JM-01_seg-NR+3_out.mp4 (3.99 MB, 12 downloads)

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  #19  
02-06-2018, 10:49 PM
Jtm732 Jtm732 is offline
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I was viewing it at 150% zoom, because I was trying to remove all the little grains. Your version is so much better, it is insane. Are all those filters using default settings or do I need to do some changes to make the mp4 you sent? Also, what codec are you using to make that mp4? I also don't mind using Avisynth, I can write scripts without an issue. Amazing work.

Edit: I tried your filters with default settings, but your result is so much sharper and less noisy.

Last edited by Jtm732; 02-06-2018 at 11:09 PM.
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  #20  
02-06-2018, 10:58 PM
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The was very aggressive filtering, and not suggested for general use. It will mess with fine-detail motion.

Start with VirtualDub dynamic NR @ 6.
Sometimes Avisynth deen() may be useful, as an alternative (not to stack).
Without seeing real-world clips, it's often hard to give advice.

Lagarith is my intermediary.
The MP4 is wrapper for H.264 using MainConcept TotalCore.

I was going to stabilize your clip too, just for fun, but Mercalli is balking about memory. Need to reboot, but that won't happen for a few days.

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interference pattern, s-video, sr-vs30, vcr, vhs

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