Quantcast VHS capture quality comparisons - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
03-30-2018, 10:26 PM
ehbowen ehbowen is offline
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Okay, I'm testing out some of the new equipment I purchased, and it's making a believer out of me. This first test compared capture cards: The Tevion USB capture card I recently purchased NOS against the Hauppauge HVR-2250 which I've had and used for not quite four years now.

The setup is consistent between both tests: The source video is a souvenir of the USS Missouri (BB-63) around-the-world shakedown cruise in 1986. It was produced by the Public Affairs Office in the ship's onboard TV studio using Betamax equipment and then professionally duplicated on VHS for distribution. I've actually tried capturing this before; see below. The full video runs 71 minutes; this is just one music video clip.

The equipment setup is JVC SR-VS30>>S-Video>>El Cheapo Switchbox>>S-Video>>TBC-1000. I had the two capture cards hooked to two of the four outputs of the TBC-1000 so each is seeing exactly the same video signal. The Hauppauge was capturing uncompressed through VDub (no compression) on a Windows 10 computer with modern (2014) specs and CPU; it's the first video. The Tevion was on a used Dell Dimension running Windows XP; it was capturing using the HuffyUV codec and it's the second video. Also included are two screenshots of VDub's status following each capture.

Finally, for reference I am including the same clip as I first captured it almost 4 years ago using my Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U direct to the Hauppauge and capturing through their WinTV7 software in .ts format. No TBC, although the Mitsu's line TBC and DNR was active. It's actually easier on the eyes than the Hauppauge video above, although my guess is that's due to lack of sharpness making things smoother. You see color washing out on this one, though, in ways that you don't see on either of the clips made with the TBC.

No filtering of any type done on these clips; just edited for length and then rendered to MP4 in Corel VideoStudio 2018. I do welcome suggestions as to what I can do to improve the quality of the video after I capture the full 71 minutes; this tape is a rarity and it's personally important to me. Thanks for comments and help.

Adding a note...the screenshots were .png files. It appears that your uploader converted them to .jpg format. Is it supposed to do that?

Editing to Add: I had some trial and error with this setup...more error than trial. At first I had difficulty getting the Tevion setup to capture at all, and the Hauppauge was capturing but with a lot of dropped frames. After a few test runs I saw that I had audio playback enabled, and apparently that was more overhead than the old XP's horsepower could cope with. After I turned audio playback off for both units capture performance and dropped frames improved significantly. I still like to hear what I'm capturing, but the cheapie gaming switchbox has a headphone jack. A wire from there to my speakers works just fine.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot.Capture.20180330.Haupp.jpg (20.8 KB, 29 downloads)
File Type: jpg Screenshot.Capture.20180330.Tevion.jpg (37.9 KB, 28 downloads)
Attached Files
File Type: mp4 WCTest.20180330.a.mp4 (57.26 MB, 26 downloads)
File Type: mp4 WCTest.20180330b.mp4 (57.29 MB, 16 downloads)
File Type: mp4 WCTest.20180330.ts.mp4 (57.19 MB, 12 downloads)

Last edited by ehbowen; 03-30-2018 at 10:31 PM. Reason: Add some info.
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  #2  
03-30-2018, 10:43 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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For reference, that specific Tevion is an ATI 600 clone, same capture chips.

Why? "S-Video>>El Cheapo Switchbox>>S-Video>>"
That just adds a potential vector for noise and signal problems, so the switchbox and a cable should be removed.

The site software converts PNG to JPG, and resizes anything over about 900 pixels wide. The reason is because it makes the webpages huge, perhaps look awkward, and harms loading times. So if you a PNG, and need it to stay PNG, and a large <900px image, then that's what archives (zip,7z,rar) are for. Attach special images in compressed archives.

A problem here is that the files are not labeled. So no idea which file is from which card/setup.

Also unsure where you're going with this. Perhaps point out some things, or ask some questions. Right now, it's just "I took some captures" without any real conversation starter.

You can hear while capturing if you dual-route audio input, or adjust OS audio settings, or split then route audio. Start a new thread on that, and I can explain more. You hear audio separate from whatever VirtualDub is doing (ie mute).

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  #3  
03-31-2018, 02:34 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Are you capturing to mp4? Lossy encoding bitrates, GOP size, and other variances simply invalidate your test. Are we comparing your mp4 encoder? You should be capturing to unaltered lossless YUY2. Any popular lossless codec will suffice to reduce file size without altering content (huffyuv, Lagarith, UTVideo codec, etc).
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  #4  
03-31-2018, 09:25 AM
ehbowen ehbowen is offline
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The captures were made lossless, to uncompressed with the Hauppauge and to HuffyUV with the Tevion. They were edited (for length) and then rendered to MP4 with the same encoder/program (VideoStudio) using the same settings. I can post brief clips of the original AVIs if you let me know the time segment which would be best for evaluating.
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  #5  
03-31-2018, 12:32 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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The original AVIs may not be needed, just clogs up server space. If the H.264 has a really high bitrate, that may suffice for whatever it is you're trying to show us.

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  #6  
03-31-2018, 01:04 PM
ehbowen ehbowen is offline
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These mp4s were rendered at 2.5 Mbps:

Quote:
MPEG-4 Files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Frame-based
H.264 High Profile Video: 2500 Kbps
48000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo
MPEG AAC Audio: 160 Kbps
However, VideoStudio offers me a choice going up to 65 Mbps for 4K. Which would be most effective to demonstrate the performance and quality differences between the capture cards?
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  #7  
03-31-2018, 02:16 PM
ehbowen ehbowen is offline
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So, I'm still trying to get familiar with the new equipment. My next test tape is a cheapie cartoon collection which I haven't looked at in 20 years, "100 of the Greatest Cartoons (none of them would make MY top 100!)", recorded in EP mode and sold as a 2-pack of 6 hour tapes.

I tried making this capture on the Panasonic AG-1980, which is supposed to have a good reputation with EP tapes. However, I had a nasty issue which seems to be tracking...vertical lines across the screen. You'll see them degenerating into pure hash at times; that's me as I'm attempting to run the manual tracking through its cycle in order to find a sweet spot. I never succeeded. Workflow is AG-1980>>S-Video>>TBC-1000>>Tevion/WinXP capture card...Lordsmurf, I'm only using the cheapie switchbox when trying different combinations of equipment; for the real capture I plug the VCR direct into the TBC and just use the switchbox to hold the extra cables.

After giving up on this capture, I decided to try my old Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U...and 20 minutes into the tape it's working perfectly with the auto tracking; no picture issues at all. It looks so good, in fact, that I've elected to go on and capture the full 6 hour tape (Which means that I won't have the comparison video available until late tonight).

Is there some setting I could try to get better results out of the Panasonic? Or is this just a case of hoping you have enough wrenches in your toolbox to find the one which fits just right?


Attached Files
File Type: mp4 Cartoons1Test.20180331.Pana1980.mp4 (52.50 MB, 8 downloads)
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  #8  
03-31-2018, 10:16 PM
ehbowen ehbowen is offline
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Well, I was having dinner with my parents and the capture ran an hour too long. I'm using VDub to trim off the excess...and it's taking longer to trim the capture than it did to capture it!

Quite a bit longer, actually...it looks to be processing at about 18 fps. That's slow enough that I can see some fine detail on the images which escaped me during capture. Turns out the Mitsubishi wasn't "perfect"...at slow speed, I can see the ghost of the tracking lines on the capture image. But it's a night and day difference from the Panasonic, as I should be able to show you tomorrow (late tomorrow...we're going to a friend's church 100 miles away early early in the morning).

I do know that the Mitsubishi's DNR was functioning, along with its internal TBC. The Panasonic's TBC was also turned on during its capture, but I don't know how to check whether its noise reduction was functioning or if the Mitsu just coped better with this particular tape. If there's some setting that I can check or change, though, I'd like to know about it.

Last edited by ehbowen; 03-31-2018 at 10:19 PM. Reason: Punctuation.
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  #9  
04-01-2018, 06:54 AM
ehbowen ehbowen is offline
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And here's the capture of the same video from the Mitsubishi; all the rest of the workflow path unchanged.

Obviously, I'm satisfied with this result; it's just that for future reference I'd like to make sure that I hadn't overlooked something when setting or operating the Panasonic. So, thanks for any help.


Attached Files
File Type: mp4 Cartoons1.20180331.Mitsu1-test.mp4 (83.41 MB, 16 downloads)
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  #10  
09-05-2019, 02:50 PM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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Hi here is some pictures from Panasonic FS200 and Panasonic NV-HS930 and JVC HR-S8500

i did use Ati All In Wonder 9000 and Datavideo TBC-5000

Panasonic FS200 = Internal TBC Off & Edit On (Canīt remember if i did use ES10 but i do not think so)
Panasonic NV-HS930 = Internal TBC On & 3D DNR On Sharpen
JVC HR-S8500 = Internal TBC On & Edit On & all other setting Off


Attached Images
File Type: jpg FS200.jpg (60.1 KB, 12 downloads)
File Type: jpg HS930.jpg (67.9 KB, 9 downloads)
File Type: png S8500.png (954.0 KB, 11 downloads)

Last edited by jjdd; 09-05-2019 at 03:21 PM.
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  #11  
09-05-2019, 06:08 PM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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Hi here is some more pictures from Panasonic FS200 and Panasonic NV-HS930 and JVC HR-S8500

i did use Ati All In Wonder 9000 and Datavideo TBC-5000

Panasonic FS200 = Internal TBC Off & Edit On
Panasonic NV-HS930 = Internal TBC On & 3D DNR On Sharpen (i did add a second picture with 3D DNR Auto)
JVC HR-S8500 = Internal TBC On & Edit On & all other setting Off


Attached Images
File Type: png Pic1_FS200.png (838.4 KB, 15 downloads)
File Type: png Pic1_HS930_Auto.png (670.7 KB, 8 downloads)
File Type: png Pic1_HS930_Sharpen.png (695.4 KB, 14 downloads)
File Type: png Pic1_S8500.png (722.0 KB, 10 downloads)
File Type: png Pic2_FS200.png (865.3 KB, 5 downloads)
File Type: png Pic2_HS930_Auto.png (724.1 KB, 5 downloads)
File Type: png Pic2_HS930_Sharpen.png (753.1 KB, 5 downloads)
File Type: png Pic2_S8500.png (789.6 KB, 4 downloads)
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  #12  
09-06-2019, 11:16 AM
cbehr91 cbehr91 is offline
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If an ES10 is in the chain you'll want to turn off the internal TBC on your VCR. Its passthrough ability works better when it gets an inferior signal. I would think you would want to turn off any editing functions or picture settings on your VCR. They usually just add noise. However, the difference between noise and detail is highly subjective, but each tape and deck are unique.
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  #13  
09-06-2019, 12:05 PM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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Hi i did not use ES10 on does captures at all
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  #14  
09-06-2019, 05:53 PM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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Hi i did get a ATI TV Wonder HD 600 USB today here is some pictures

i did use ATI TV Wonder HD 600 USB and Datavideo TBC-5000


Panasonic NV-HS930 = Internal TBC On & 3D DNR On Sharpen


Attached Images
File Type: png Pic1_HS930_Sharpen_TV Wonder600USB.png (668.7 KB, 10 downloads)
File Type: png Pic2_HS930_Sharpen_TV_Wonder600USB.png (739.9 KB, 7 downloads)
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  #15  
09-07-2019, 05:44 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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When I compare the captures from the ATI9000 & the 600 I see you have used the wrong capture resolution for the ATI9000.
The native resolution should be 704x576 as you can see the captures from the 600 has black borders on the right,left side.

My favourite would be the FS200 captures.
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  #16  
09-07-2019, 06:06 AM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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How well does the TBC-5000 work?
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  #17  
09-07-2019, 06:50 AM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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Bogilein yes i did notice the black borders on the right,left side on the tv wonder 600 usb

hmm i did use 720x576 on both ATI9000 & the tv wonder 600 usb

hmm i did try to find any setting to get full frame on tv wonder 600 but there is no setting for it maby itīs the drivers

i do get little black borders left and right with ATI9000 to on some other vhs movies like "In the line of fire" & "Magnum Force" but no black borders on the VHS movie "Back to the future II" & "Titanic"


i did notice that ATI9000 have much finer steps on the contrast slider so you can fine tune contrast much better on the ATI9000 then on tv wonder 600 usb maby that has to do with the 12bit vs 9bit video encoder

so on the virtual dub capture histogram i did get the contrast level just below the clipping point with ATI9000 but with tv wonder 600 usb it was either to high or little to low but itīs better to be on the little to low side
maby a external proc amp like Elite Video BVP4 or SignVideo PA-100 can help to get it perfect

Last edited by jjdd; 09-07-2019 at 07:37 AM.
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  #18  
09-07-2019, 06:51 AM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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Bogilein yes i did notice the black borders on the right,left side on the tv wonder 600 usb

hmm i did use 720x576 on both ATI9000 & the tv wonder 600 usb

hmm i did try to find any setting to get full frame on tv wonder 600 but there is no setting for it maby itīs the drivers

i do get little black borders left and right with ATI9000 to on some other vhs movies like "In the line of fire" & "Magnum Force" but no black borders on the VHS movie "Back to the future II" & "Titanic"


i did notice that ATI9000 have much finer steps on the contrast slider so you can fine tune contrast much better on the ATI9000 then on tv wonder 600 usb maby that has to do with the 12bit vs 9bit video encoder

so on the virtual dub capture histogram i did get the contrast level just below the clipping point with ATI9000 but with tv wonder 600 usb it was either to high or little to low but itīs better to be on the little to low side


Please delete this duplicate post
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  #19  
09-07-2019, 07:09 AM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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hodgey yes it works very good does not blur the image at all
i did buy it directly from Datavideo maby 7 years ago

i did buy it because of blackmagic intensity shuttle USB 3.0

hehe my old Matrox marvel G400 TV + macrovision hack does not need any full frame TBC itīs better to not use Datavideo TBC-5000 with Matrox Marvel G400 TV but it needs windows 2000 SP2 or lower

For Matrox Marvel G400 TV To install Video tools w2kvt204.015 you must have windows 2000 SP2 or lower that have Windows Installer version 1 if you do not have Windows Installer 1 then you get this "Installshield Wizard Interrupted" message

i did not get the capture histogram to work in VirtualDub with Matrox Marvel G400 TV so i have to use my own eyes to fine tune the brightness and contrast sliders

Last edited by jjdd; 09-07-2019 at 07:21 AM.
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  #20  
09-07-2019, 07:26 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Made another capture with the ATI9000 with the resolution 704x576 and compare it to the other captures. If you capture with 720x576 your capture will be streched.
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