VHS capture either skip or add frames?
 

Hello first time poster here so please bare with me. I'm trying to do VHS captures but continuously run into problems. My current problem is no matter what device I use the video in certain places might duplicate a frame or in some cases skip frames. In a few instances I've even had audio problems.

I'll try to go into detail with what I've been working with. The VCR is a 1999 General Electric and I am using a 2006 Panasonic DVD Recorder as a pass-through. My laptop is a Dell Latitude. The capturing programs and devices I have is Honestech VHS to DVD 3.0 and 7.0, Roxio Creator NXT 1 and 4, EyeTV (on my mac), Roxio VHS to DVD 3, and Pinnacle Studios 2008 and 2016 versions. Pinnacle 2016 and Roxio Creator NXT 4 are the one's I've mostly been using lately.

Here's a list of devices I've used. The Honestech programs came with VIDBOX capture cards, the Pinnacle programs came with Dazzle capture devices, Roxio VHS to DVD with its own device. I have a few WinTV devices including 850, 950, and 955 while the EyeTV devices I have are Hybrid, 250, and HD. I've tried a few others including ION video capture and Gigaware video capture with mixed results. My best results have been with VIDBOX, Dazzle, and WinTV devices.

Anyways my current problem as I initially mentioned was getting glitches in my captures. In a few places the captures will skip a frame or add one. I've even tried mixing and matching various devices to see what I could get. I've tried 2016 Dazzle with 2016 Pinnacle but am unable to adjust the volume of the stream even if I go into device manager. However, I can adjust the volume of the device if I use it with Roxio Creator NXT. Other instances such as the VIDBOX07 through Roxio Creator has the audio revert back to its default level when I start and stop recording despite my attempts to adjust it. The 2008 Dazzle, VIDBOX03, and WinTV 850 are at appropriate volume levels.

Just to cut a long story short the Roxio Creator program seems to be the best for doing this despite what device I use. The Honestech programs leaves a combing effect like this in the captured video.

Attachment 8406

One program that I've seen suggested is Vdub which I did try and it gave me the effect above. I also have tried the capturing options for Nero and this Corel editing program I have and still got that effect. The Roxio and Pinnacle programs do not give off this effect. Further more other 'free' capturing software I've tried that didn't give off that effect re-encoded the video. The purchased softwares I have do not do this.

I've tried mixing and matching with mixed results. Some programs don't frame the image right depending on the device and program. For example the 2016 Dazzle used in the 2016 Pinnacle looks like this (the correct framing).

Attachment 8407

However 2016 Dazzle through 2008 Pinnacle looks like this.

Attachment 8408

I recently downloaded Vdub again and the framing looks off again so I'm not sure I wanna go that route. Further more the WinTV devices don't appear to work through that program.

Again apologies if I'm rambling but I just wanted to detail what I've been working with to hopefully assist in understanding what the problem may be. I've tried different combinations and different programs and these minor glitches remain. Is it the devices?? The DVD recorder (TBC)?? The computer?? Is it the settings?? When I use Roxio Creator NXT I usually set it to DVD HQ. A little bit ago I tried AVI but there was numerous audio glitches.

Anyways I hope I've elaborated enough. Any other questions please ask and I'll provide what information I can. What do you guys think?? What can I do to eliminate these glitches??? I'd rather not be given options of using editing tools after the fact to fix this mostly because for example if I do lose a frame in the actual capturing how do I expect the program to restore it??

Opinions??

Sorry. Here's those images again (same order). They should stay this time. Fixed! -LS

Welcome. :)

You're running into typical issues from low-quality hardware, software, and/or methods.
We'll set you straight...

The double image is probably blended deinterlace. Not good, never good. Again, low-quality software from the sounds of it.

1999 GE decks are probably one of the worst VCRs I've ever used. By that time, GE was just a name brand for some brand X machine from China, Taiwan, or Korea. I forget which manufacturer did it, but it wasn't Funai. (I actually still have that VCR, used only as a dumb conversion box. It emits RF noise, but the screen is too small to notice.)

ION had several models, all with the same make/model info. One of them was actually close to the ATI 600 USB chipset, but not entirely. It was always overpriced

Roxio is a EZcap/Easycap (EZcrap) rebadge. Quality isn't there.

Gigaware looks to be ION rebadge.

Both Roxio and Pinnacle Studio software is infamous, some of the worst crap ever made for video. It's been that way for more than a decade now.

Honestech is essentially same as EZcap, same inferior Philips SAA7113 chipset. More low-end junk, with dummy software that has quality issues.

VirtualDub is not plug-and-go software, but needs some careful setup to be optimized. If you saw ghosting like that, you probably didn't have resolution and/or framerate setup. There's a guide in this forum, where both sanlyn and myself have given quite a bit of details on setup (including alternate settings, as some systems/cards need them).

What do you mean "framing"? Are you referring to the moving edges, aka overscan, which usually changes with a VCR play, the VCR, the capture card, and anything else in use.

You mention "2006 Panasonic DVD recorder" for passthrough. Is that the DMR-ES10?

Thank you for the response.

The reason I'm actually using the '99 GE VCR is because for some reason its been giving me the better playback of the three VCR's I have. The other two are a 2003 Panasonic and a 2004 Sony. Those two give mixed playbacks. Some tapes play perfectly fine, others I might get an audio crackle throughout. I have very little of these issues with the GE. For example, about a year ago I was capturing a tape on the Panasonic. There was an annoying audio crackle for the whole recording. So I tried it again on the GE and it came out much better. There was a slight crackle for maybe half the tape but not nearly NEARLY as bad as when I played it on the Panasonic. I could be wrong but I don't think its a head cleaning issue since again I could play one tape on the Panasonic and it plays fine yet I'll play a different one and it doesnt play fine yet the one that did still plays fine if I pop it in again. Don't have these problems with the GE for some reason.

For the framing it may be the overscan you mentioned. Here's a screenshot of the VCR blue screen captured through Roxio.

Attachment 8409

Here it is again captured through VirtualDub.

Attachment 8410

These are the same VCR and both were captured with the VIDBOX03.

The DVD Recorder is the DMR-ES15.

Overscan isn't visible anyway. At worst, you see it for streaming, the rare stupid non-overscan TVs, and as a waster of bitrate. You can never fix this. Just mask it (and re-center the image).

You should not get buzzing in audio at all, not even half the tape. This is a problem of a lower-end VHS VCR. There tapes were probably recorded on a misaligned deck, and the cheapo VHS-only decks can't handle it. It may also denote head wear, but probably not for all 3 VCRs. Probably.

It's NOT a head cleaning issue, correct.
(I really hate that knee-jerk reaction to all VCR problems that you see on clueless blogs and Youtube. That's not it. Furthermore, most of those same people give horrible advice for how to clean that WILL ruini the VCR heads. ie Q-tips, eek!)

ES15 is good. It helps make a bad VCR look decent, but does nothing for audio.

What would be my best option?? Should I possibly look into getting a VCR with a built in TBC or do you think the issue with the skipped/added frames is device related??

You should be using a VCR with built-in tbc anyway. You should also be aware that there are two types of tbc, line-level and frame-level. Line-level tbc's correct scanline errors and vertical distortion in individual frames. Scanline errors are always present with analog tape and are easily visible. The built-in tbc's in VCRs are line-level tbc's. You can achieve similar corrections with a pass-thru device (ES10 or ES15). Line-level tbc's correct scanline errors but do not correct frame-to-frame timing errors -- for those errors you need a frame-level tbc.

An external frame-level tbc doesn't correct scanline errors in individual frames. Rather, they correct frame timing and signal errors and can remove copy protection. Dropped/inserted frames and poor audio sync indicate unstable signal timing, and can also result from unsuitable settings in Virtualdub's timing options dialog. A pass-thru unit provides some level of frame sync but will not remove copy protection. The forum has advanced VirtualDub setting options for different types of capture cards in this guide: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...-settings.html.

I’m not sure Vdub is the program I’d like to go with. Roxio Creator NXT has been getting the job done just fine the last few months. Someone on another site suggested using Vdub with the huffyuv codec but I haven’t a clue how to install the latter. In the install guide the download provided is all Greek to me I’m afraid haha. Here’s what it said.

;
; Huffyuv AVI lossless video codec
;
; Copyright © 2000 Ben Rudiak-Gould
;
; This Windows 9x Installation INF File by Rainbow Software
;
[version]
signature="$CHICAGO$"
Class = MEDIA

[DefaultInstall]
CopyFiles=HUF.Files.Inf,HUF.Files.Dll
AddReg=HUF.Reg
MediaType = SOFTWARE

[Remove_HFYU]
DelFiles=HUF.Files.Dll,HUF.Files.Inf,HUF.Files.Ini
DelReg=HUF.Reg

[SourceDisksNames]
1="Huffyuv AVI lossless video codec",,1

[SourceDisksFiles]
huffyuv.dll=1
HUFFYUV.INF=1

[Installable.Drivers]
HFYU = 1:huffyuv.dll, "vidc.HFYU", "Huffyuv lossless codec [HFYU]",,,

[DestinationDirs]
HUF.Files.Inf=17
HUF.Files.Dll=11
HUF.Files.Ini=25

[HUF.Files.Inf]
HUFFYUV.INF

[HUF.Files.Dll]
HUFFYUV.DLL

[HUF.Files.Ini]
HUFFYUV.INI

[HUF.Reg]
HKLM,SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\drivers32,vidc.HFYU,,huffyuv.dll
HKLM,SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\drivers.desc, huffyuv.dll,, "Huffyuv lossless codec"
HKLM,SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\MediaResourc es\icm\VIDC.HFYU,Description,,"Huffyuv lossless codec [HFYU]"
HKLM,SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\MediaResourc es\icm\VIDC.HFYU,Driver,,"huffyuv.dll"
HKLM,SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\MediaResourc es\icm\VIDC.HFYU,FriendlyName,,"Huffyuv lossless codec [HFYU]"

HKLM,Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Uni nstall\HUFFYUV

So yeah kinda lost on that and I don’t wanna just assume Vdub recognizes it. Just the same if the implication appears to be it’s the TBC causing these issues would it really matter what program/device I’m using? Keep in mind I’m no expert AT ALL on this kinda stuff. I’ve just done a lot of trial and error the last few years and can only speak from experience.

If I were to perhaps invest in a VCR with a built in TBC, which would come recommended?? I had a bit of discussion a few months back on another site on this and it was said these cost between $200-$600. Well I’d prefer something in the $200 range if possible. I just spent over $300 for a new laptop so I don’t wanna go too crazy on this.

Lastly, unless I misunderstood you, the pass thru units, or at least some of them, CAN work through copy protection. The DVD Recorder I’ve been using as a pass through the last few months has been able to bypass all that.

huffyuv ships as a zip that unfolds into three files: huffyuv.dll, huffyuv,inf, and a readme.txt file. The install instructions in the readme states: "To install Huffyuv, right click on huffyuv.inf and select "Install". That works for 32-bit systems, as clearly stated by the phrase "This Windows 9x Installation INF File by Rainbow Software" in the inf file. If you're using a 64-bit OS, you have to get more complicated when installing 32- bit utils.

This has all been covered in quite a few posts in this forum and others. However....it appears you've already figured out what you want and don't seem interested in more conventional and time-proven recommendations. So what, actually, is your question?

No, no that’s not exactly what I said. Please let me elaborate more. The huffyuv folder I downloaded had only two items in it.

Attachment 8413

And yes i did download the 64bit version and that’s what I got. From what I’m being told there should be another file in there unless I’m misreading something. Also when I right clicked the .dll file there was no ‘Install’ option in the pop up window.

So again what is my question?? How do I stop the glitches?? Is it device related?? TBC related?? Is it RAM or CPU related?? Format related??

Even going back to the VCR with a built in TBC as an option, I never said I’d do that. If anything I wanted more of an opinion from one of you if that would be a viable option but that’s no guarantee I’ll go that route. I’m just trying to keep options open is all.

Please don’t take me as disrespectful and disregarding all your opinions on the subject. I’m grateful for the assistance. Again I can only speak on experience from trial and error. I’m not an expert.

As far as already choosing what to do again let me elaborate. Again trial and error. At this point I know what programs and devices can reproduce the video in the signal, quality, and deinterlaced look I want. I’m not saying those are the ideal programs to use I’m saying if I was to be asked point blank if anything I’ve tested can get me a captured result I’m looking for than yes I can answer that. For example Vdub gives me the interlaced double image, Roxio and Pinnacle for example do not. Someone on another site mentioned it’s SUPPOSED to be interlaced and not to use a program that deinterlaces on the spot and that I should remove it in an editing program. My only argument with that is, and again it’s not to sound arrogant, since I plan on preserving these captures to DVD and do not want those effects wouldn’t it make sense to use a program that doesn’t reproduce that effect?? Again that’s just an opinion. I’m not an expert.

So there’s some things I can answer. I can’t however answer the glitch aspect of it because it could be any number of things. It could be a combination of things.

That is why I seek help. If I came off as disregarding your suggestions I apologize. Not my intention.

Also you mentioned outlines. Could you possibly direct me to them?? I’m still new to this site.

-- merged --

Well my computers memory has to be wiped and it turns out it was VDub that caused it. So probably gonna mix that program.

VirtualDub will not cause a computer "memory"(?) -- I think you mean "hard drive" -- to need to be wiped. That makes zero sense. There are clearly the problems at play here, and we're just not seeing the full picture.

Never download Huffyuv 64-bit for capture. In fact, at this date, don't use Huffyuv MT or 64 at all. For true 64-bit non-capture (editing, restoration), use Lagarith. Only use Huffyuv plain 32-bit for capture.

Search the site for the term "overscan". I don't remember off-hand where all the threads/guides are.
Here's a main one: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...erly-crop.html

Yes I meant hard drive. Sorry, I've been multitasking today. I won't use huffyuv. I'll try to look into overscan though I'm hesitant to try VDub again after this. Unfortunately until the computers up and running again not much to do at present. I'll try to get back to this soon.

lordsmurf just curious after you gave me a run down about the devices I used what is your preferred capture device (it doesn't have to be one I listed)????

-- merged --

Ok scratch what I said about VDub giving me the virus. It may not have. I was actually installing another program at the time the virus surfaced so most likely it was that. My stepdad was the one I had look at my computer since he’s usually pretty handy with them and he assumed the virus was because of VDub since it was a program that had been installed from about the past day up until then.

Anyways I’m still waiting to get the computer up and running again so this will have to remain on hold until then. What I will likely do first before trying VDub again is do two test captures, one with TBC and one without, using either Pinnacle or Roxio (thinking Pinnacle this time) just to test whether or not the TBC might be part of the issue. Stay tuned everyone.