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-   -   AVT-8710 alternatives, wavy distortions, color bars? (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/8694-avt-8710-alternatives.html)

cpayne825 05-10-2018 01:36 PM

AVT-8710 alternatives, wavy distortions, color bars?
 
Hey all. So I've been trying to get into this VHS to Digital to get some old home movies converted over to files. As I have been doing research, and as I have witnessed, I need a TBC as I am getting some wavy distortion in the video when converted (like when someone is walking in the video with the camera, or quick pans, etc).

I've read all over the forums about the AVT-8710 and all of it's flaw. And I read that the truly good versions of that was the green box. So I bought one at https://www.hdtvsupply.com/tibaco1.html. Or so I thought I was getting the green one. I opened the box and it was the black one that everyone has been saying isn't any good.

Out of curiosity, I plugged it in to see if it would work. After checking the wires and the VCR, and checking the video capture (ELGATO), all I was getting was color bars on the output. I read that if the signal isn't strong enough that it might do that. So I tried it on another VCR and a DVD player -- still color bars.

So my questions to the forum:
1) Is there anything else I can try to not get color bars only before I send this thing back?
2) Since the DataVideo TBC-1000 has been discontinued, what else can I use that won't TOTALLY break the bank?
3) Is there a PCI card that has TBC built in already. A friend use to capture video from video tape back in the day and I don't remember him ever having to deal with this :/

PS. I am trying to also convert video from a 8MM Camcorder. So I am plugging it into the Elgato. This is where I REALLY need the TBC help. Camcorder doesn't have anything. Neither does the JVC VHS player I am using.

Thanks for the help. I need it desperately :)

sanlyn 05-10-2018 02:25 PM

What kind of "wavy distortion"? Sounds like you need a line tbc, not a frame tbc.
Find a used Panasonic DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15, use it as a pass=-thru device and get both tbc's in one. Will not prevent disturbances from copy protection, however. The ES10 or ES15 are the most effective pass-thru devices we know of.

Elgato? Maybe when you know more about video you'll get rid of that one.

cpayne825 05-10-2018 02:31 PM

Thanks for the info, Sanlyn. I'm really kinda new to all of this so I have been educating myself. It's been a LONG time since I've done any kind of video capturing.

I've also got the Diamond VC500. I purchased both to see if one of those would affect the issue I am having. I don't need all the bells and whistles of that software as I have the Adobe CC suite and import all of my video into Premiere Pro.

Any suggestions for a capture card? I'm totally open to anything (and I can still send back the Elgato Video Capture)

sanlyn 05-10-2018 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpayne825 (Post 54123)
I've also got the Diamond VC500.

The VC500 will get cleaner captures than the Elgato, which is a noisy piece of work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpayne825 (Post 54123)
I don't need all the bells and whistles of that software as I have the Adobe CC suite and import all of my video into Premiere Pro.

That's a shame. NLE's are notoriously inferior capture software, and Adobe isn't at all useful for cleaning up analog source -- especially if it's being capped to lossy codecs, which is a quality hit from the start.

But whatever you think works for you.

themaster1 05-13-2018 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpayne825 (Post 54121)
So my questions to the forum:
1) Is there anything else I can try to not get color bars only before I send this thing back?

An obvious one: Try differents inputs (composite,s-video)

I am not familiar with avt (even though i always wanted one) but for my education would it send color bars with a supposedly "weak signal" ??

lordsmurf 05-13-2018 03:42 PM

Welcome. :)

I hate "please help" thread titles, so I've changed it to be more descriptive to the topic. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpayne825 (Post 54121)
Hey all. So I've been trying to get into this VHS to Digital to get some old home movies converted over to files.

How many tapes are talking about? Too many people overlook just having it done professionally, and it'll actually be cheaper than (or the same price as) DIY. But it depends on tape count, and running time of said tapes (SP vs EP).

Quote:

As I have been doing research, and as I have witnessed, I need a TBC as I am getting some wavy distortion in the video when converted (like when someone is walking in the video with the camera, or quick pans, etc).
Wavy at top of screen, or wavy all over the image?
Top-screen only is tearing. All over image is timing errors for line TBCs.

Quote:

I've read all over the forums about the AVT-8710 and all of it's flaw. And I read that the truly good versions of that was the green box. So I bought one at https://www.hdtvsupply.com/tibaco1.html. Or so I thought I was getting the green one. I opened the box and it was the black one that everyone has been saying isn't any good.
Green units are from the 2000s, almost 10 years old. Anything sold by a store will be a black unit from the 2010s, regardless of the stock photos being used on their site.

Quote:

Out of curiosity, I plugged it in to see if it would work. After checking the wires and the VCR, and checking the video capture (ELGATO), all I was getting was color bars on the output. I read that if the signal isn't strong enough that it might do that. So I tried it on another VCR and a DVD player -- still color bars.
Assuming you have all your wires correct, it's probably a faulty copy of the unit. But even if was a "working" black unit, it'd have flaws. So time for a refund on it. Send it back, be done with that. Let's move on to something that does work for you.

Quote:

2) Since the DataVideo TBC-1000 has been discontinued, what else can I use that won't TOTALLY break the bank?
We've talked about TBCs, but you've not yet mentioned the VCR. What are you using? Because it doesn't sound like you have a JVC S-VHS VCR in the mix, and the VCR is the most important item in the workflow. All are important, but VCR comes first. That's what gets the data off the tape, which TBC and capture card then process.

Also keep in mind that I have gear available in the marketplace forum, and you can always PM me about it. I need to update those posts soon, remove some gear (sold), add others (finally ready to sell).

Quote:

3) Is there a PCI card that has TBC built in already.
No.

Note that a couple of cards market this, but in-depth research has shown it to be nonsense. It's because "TBC" is a wide term, with too many interpretations. As I wrote elsewhere on the site, some companies stretch it so far that it seems as if my toaster might have a TBC.

Quote:

A friend use to capture video from video tape back in the day and I don't remember him ever having to deal with this :/
You probably do know about it, or his was doing low-quality transfers, or you just forgot. Lots of possibilities here. But needing a TBC has never changed, a fact of digital video life since inception. I've had to use TBCs since the 90s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn (Post 54122)
What kind of "wavy distortion"? Sounds like you need a line tbc, not a frame tbc. Find a used Panasonic DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15, use it as a pass=-thru device and get both tbc's in one. Will not prevent disturbances from copy protection, however. The ES10 or ES15 are the most effective pass-thru devices we know of.

Yes.

The are many TBC types, but the most important for us is the line TBC and the external framesync TBC. Line is found in high-end S-VHS VCRs, while framesync is external units. Line mostly cleans the image, and external mostly cleans the signal. So AVT-8710 won't clean up wavy distortion, but it does prevent dropped frames and other artifacts. So you need both.

The ES10 isn't really a TBC, but is closest to line in behavior. It still allows image corruptions to happen, because it was crippled to appease Macrovision. And since Macrovision/anti-copy is nothing more than an artificial video error, real video errors can be mistaken for the fake ones. ES10 also has other NR side effects, making it not transparent like true TBCs. Best use for tearing only. However, it can be a compromise piece, though you need to know the drawbacks.

Quote:

Elgato? Maybe when you know more about video you'll get rid of that one.
I hate Elgato because the don't really use any models on their gear. Just that stupid brand name. Some of the earlier Elgate was actually quite good, using good chipsets. But most of the latter ones, meaning anything new (and for years now) is crap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpayne825 (Post 54123)
I've also got the Diamond VC500. I purchased both to see if one of those would affect the issue I am having. I don't need all the bells and whistles of that software

That card is fine, but use VirtualDub only.

Quote:

as I have the Adobe CC suite and import all of my video into Premiere Pro.
Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn (Post 54126)
That's a shame. NLE's are notoriously inferior capture software, and Adobe isn't at all useful for cleaning up analog source -- especially if it's being capped to lossy codecs, which is a quality hit from the start.

NLEs are good at editing, maybe color correction. But that's it. Those are horrible at both capturing and restoring. That's not at all the tool you should be using. You have no idea what NLEs are doing. For example, NLEs don't report dropped frames, probably the single most important aspect of capturing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by themaster1 (Post 54167)
An obvious one: Try differents inputs (composite,s-video)
I am not familiar with avt (even though i always wanted one) but for my education would it send color bars with a supposedly "weak signal" ??

I've never seen a "weak signal" problem. The color bars won't even overtake the image due to snow. It literally has to be "no signal" for the color bars to kick in. The composite vs. s0video is good troubleshooting, but assuming he's wired correctly, it sounds like a dud unit. It happens, especially on those post-2010 POS. It's not the first time I've read about more than just chipset buffer fails.

In terms of always wanting one, what are you most curious about? :)

cpayne825 12-28-2018 04:28 PM

Wavy Distortion, Example Video
 
Hello All -

First off, my apologies for the delayed response. I was working on this project earlier in the year and just got too busy to get back to this discussion. I am still looking for some help in getting this issue cleaned up that I am getting.

@Lordsmurf - I did return the AVT-8710 earlier in the year and got my money back.

OK so I wanted to send you all a sample video of what I am getting. This is a capture from a Sony Handycam 8MM (sorry dont have the exact model, but its from the 90's/early 2000's.) I am capturing using the Diamond VC500. The video was taken with the camera attached to an RC car (excuse the video, it was from a homemade video from when I was a kid).

As you will see, I am getting a bunch of distortion when the camera is in motion. Likewise, I am getting this same distortion from home videos where the person taking the video is walking or moving.

Any way to clean this up? Do I need a TBC of some sort? What do you suggest?

BTW - sending videos in to have them converted is not an option. I have way too many tapes from my family to convert if I can get this issue solved. And some of my old tapes from High School --- well I'm not sure I want anyone else to see those! LOL.

Thanks!

(Trying to add the file for review, but work connection time out the upload. Will have to upload from home)

lordsmurf 12-28-2018 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpayne825 (Post 58117)
(Trying to add the file for review, but work connection time out the upload. Will have to upload from home)

99mb file max size.
You may be running into that, and it also gives a "timeout" error.

cpayne825 12-29-2018 09:34 AM

Wavy Distortion Continued
 
1 Attachment(s)
I think I had both going on. The file size was large and work was blocking it.

Here is the file for you to look at LordSmurf.

The VCR I have is a JVC HR-A62U. I'm pretty certain this player does not have TBC as I have look over the menu :(

BTW -- thank you for your help. You look to be the video GURU of the site. I have really found this site super helpful. So if this is your site, thank you! And to you and everyone who runs it, thank you!

Lastly -- if you do think this is a TBC issue, I'd be interested in getting one of those TBC you have (if you have any left). I'm wanting to get all of my family's tapes converted in the next year so my Dad can watch them. He just started treatment for Leukemia and it's unclear how much time he's got left (might be 5 years, might be 3, might be 7 -- depends on how the chemo reacts). So this would be an amazing thing to have done this year so he can look back at all of the memories.

Much Appreciation!

lordsmurf 12-29-2018 09:38 AM

And just to confirm, it doesn't do this when viewed through the camcorder itself, or the camera plugged into TV, just when trying to capture on the computer?

(Note: Don't make the leap in logic that the capture card is at fault, because that's not what I'm getting at.)

cpayne825 12-29-2018 09:46 AM

That's correct. When I watch it through the Camcorder, the video plays with no issues. It just seems that the digital conversion process is picking this "movement distortion" up.

Also to add -- i was getting this same distortion when I was using that Elgato capture card as well. (This capture came from the Diamond VC500).

The Camcorder is a Handycam Vision CCD-TRV15.

sanlyn 12-29-2018 10:42 AM

How are you capturing? It was requested that you use Virtualdub, but your sample has been captured to lossy DV and YV12. Besides compression loss and artifacts, 50% of the chroma data has been lost. DV is not a restoration format. Does your camcorder output DV?

Besides the frame distortion,. it's also obvious that your VCR doesn't have a line-level tbc. You have line-level as well as frame-level distortion, and you're capturing to lossy media. None of those problems would be the fault of the VC500 itself.

hodgey 12-29-2018 11:11 AM

That shakeup in the video looks like something I have seen when capturing directly with the VC500 from a video8 camcorder or deck without any form of TBC, either in camera or external. Video being more unstable when the camera is moving around seems to be common in my experience, especially stuff filmed while driving.

Putting a TBC or certain models of DVD-recorders in between should help. A DVDR like the Panasonic ES10/ES15 like suggested earlier may be nicer in this case it can help more with horizontal wiggling as well, since the camcorder and VCR you're using don't feature a TBC of their own. The VC500 capture card doesn't really care about macrovision in case the DVDR outputs it thinking the source was copy-protected. That is unless you're planning to invest in a new camcorder and vcr.

I use the Diamond VC500 with either a Pioneer DVR-440H, or Datavideo TBC-3000 for capturing Video8/Hi8 myself, though with some of the higher-end models of Sony cameras that featured a TBC. The former also stabilizes horizontal jiggly lines quite well if needed, though is a bit more sensitive to really bad tape problems than the Datavideo or the suggested ES10.

Eric-Jan 12-29-2018 11:50 AM

onto which media the camera records to ?

lordsmurf 12-29-2018 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn (Post 58128)
How are you capturing? It was requested that you use Virtualdub, but your sample has been captured to lossy DV and YV12. Besides compression loss and artifacts, 50% of the chroma data has been lost. DV is not a restoration format. Does your camcorder output DV?

One issue at a time. For the moment, we need to table the capturing. First we need to worry about the input signal be stable.

Quote:

Besides the frame distortion,. it's also obvious that your VCR doesn't have a line-level tbc.
It's not a VCR, it's a Video8/Hi8 camera. :wink2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey (Post 58129)
That shakeup in the video looks like something I have seen when capturing directly with the VC500 from a video8 camcorder or deck without any form of TBC,

Not just the VC500, but many/most capture cards blitz out on certain types of footage. And Video8/Hi8 tape can exude this very symptom.

Quote:

Putting a TBC or certain models of DVD-recorders in between should help. A DVDR like the Panasonic ES10/ES15 like suggested earlier may be nicer in this case it can help more with horizontal wiggling as well, since the camcorder and VCR you're using don't feature a TBC of their own. The VC500 capture card doesn't really care about macrovision in case the DVDR outputs it thinking the source was copy-protected. That is unless you're planning to invest in a new camcorder and vcr.
Yes, TBC will be needed, as usual.
Copy protection has little to do with anything, and it's all about video errors, timing errors. Copy protection is just fake/artificial errors, but many actual errors still exist.

Quote:

I use the Diamond VC500
I have one of these, acquired it solely for research, and I don't really like it. Sometimes I've seen oddities, and it's naturally dark input. So it's not as good as some of the other USB options, but it does break into my top 10 USB devices, probably top 5 for specific OS (Win8/10). Not bad, just not best. When somebody has one, I don't tell them to upgrade/trade it, unless there are interaction issues with the workflow/sources (which can happen, and more often than some folks realize).

sanlyn 12-29-2018 01:05 PM

Besides having no tbc of any sort, the sample is not a VirtualDub capture. It's captured to DV using either the VC500's undesirable EZ Grabber software or the equally undesirable Adobe NLE. There's no signal level control and YUV even exceeds y=0-255, which is common with DV capture.

Look like an ES10/ES15 with VirtualDub is the way to go. Or get a player with line tbc and spend for an external frame tbc.

Eric-Jan 12-29-2018 01:10 PM

The OP should shockproof mount the camera in the first place :) because that's the source of the problem, or have a real FPV camera setup, A Handycam isn't made for this kind of torture.

cpayne825 12-29-2018 01:42 PM

Eric-Jan -- Yes let me go back in time and tell myself and my family to shockproof mount the camera. LOL! Not really something to think about at the time considering these tapes are from 20 years or more ago :)

Sanlyn -- I have downloaded LordSmurfs VirtualDub and will capture using that. But I can tell you with certainty that I will still get that distortion :) Again it looks fine on the Camera/TV. It's when it gets transferred digitally is when it goes crazy. As for the format, I just did that as a quick example of what I'm getting. I wasn't trying to adjust any settings for optimal video output. Just trying to put something up here to explain what I am seeing.

This equipment is hard to come by these days. I'm really surprised someone hasn't made some equipment that can be sold commercially to do this and clean up video nicely. The pay services are nice -- for people who don't have the capability or time to do it themselves. Plus, this is a nice way to rewatch some of these memories as I capture them and edit them together. I guess I want to do it on my own for the fun of it :)

LordSmurf -- Do you have a TBC you would be willing to part with to give that a try? And BTW -- because of your excellent advice, I did become a Premium Member. I know it's not much, but wanted to show my appreciation for taking the time to help me with my question.

lordsmurf 12-29-2018 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpayne825 (Post 58136)
LordSmurf -- Do you have a TBC you would be willing to part with to give that a try? And BTW -- because of your excellent advice, I did become a Premium Member. I know it's not much, but wanted to show my appreciation for taking the time to help me with my question.

You have a PM. :congrats:

Eric-Jan 12-29-2018 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpayne825 (Post 58136)
Eric-Jan -- Yes let me go back in time and tell myself and my family to shockproof mount the camera. LOL! Not really something to think about at the time considering these tapes are from 20 years or more ago :)

You should mention that sort of things in your very first post.


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