Digitalize degrading 8mm tapes?

[SuperS]

Hi everybody. I am quite new to this topic so please go easy on me

Some weeks ago when me and my family tried to rewatch old homemade 8mm PAL tapes of the early 90s we found out that some of them have started to become difficult to watch, due to lots of audio and video breaks while playing it on our tv (with the good old component method we've always used).

I am really afraid of those childhood memories being lost completely thats why I took it upon myself to save what is left of those tapes and all the other ones we have to some kind of digital form. Another thing that might be worth to note is that I really dont have too much money available atm so I have to find some at least halfway cheap way to do it.
Our old camcorder is the Sony Video8 Handycam CCD-TR105E with component output only.

My first approach was to buy one of those cheap usb grabbers. I bought the "Aplic USB Audio/Video Grabber" on Amazon some days ago and was quite unhappy with the results. The video and audio I captured was sadly enough waay more stumbly and broken then when watching the same tape with the same component cable on our tv. I tried their software "Honestech VHS to DvD 2.0 SE Capture" and VirtualDub. Both give more or less the same broken stumbly video (even though the one from VirtualDub looks a little more highres and has the audio not synched properly).

Long story short, I will send the cheap Grabber back and would be so happy if you guys could point me into the right direction. I dont care too much about getting the best possible resolution, lossless audio/video, etc. I just need something to conserve the memory in a more or less watchable way.

thanks in advance
SuperS

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

Sony Video8 Handycam CCD-TR105E with component output only

Actually it is likely composite video output, not component. Composite is a single cable connection for video, typically an RCA plug (often a yellow jack) in the US. Component is three cables usually colored Red, Blue, and Green, and provides a better connection but was rarely found on other than professional gear in the Video8 days.

The increasingly poor playback over time could be a combination of an aging camcorder and/or degradation of the tape, especially if stored under poor conditions. TV sets are generally much more forgiving of out-of-spec video signals than capture devices which is why the playback to the TV worked better than what you captured. General purpose computers are usually poor for viewing analog video for a variety of reasons including monitors and graphics cards that are not color calibrated for video. In any case it is best to archive and convert for viewing your memories while you can.

The site has a lot of information on analog video capture and restoration techniques including recommendations for gear, software, and methods/work flows. It is worth spending some time browsing the various sections. The approach to take will depend on several factors including how many tapes you want to convert, your budget, how much time you can invest in learning and doing, what you want for a final distribution format/media, and how good is good enough for you purposes (the amount of restoration wanted, which your post indicates is minimal).

If it is a small number of tapes and you are not looking for significant restoration of the video, it may be lowest net cost to send them to a copy/conversion service. If you do this, try it with a tape of lower importance first to determine whether or not they do an acceptable job for you.

If DIY, in any case you will need a TBC to stabilize the video stream, you may need a better player depending on the condition of the camcorder, and if all you want is watchable video, a DVD video recorder (do they have them in your country), or a reasonable capture card maybe sufficient to produce a usable end result.

For more detailed suggestions, please tell us what technology (e.g., PC, operating system, etc.), and budget (time and money) do you have now beyond the CCD-TR105e. Note that if you need to buy gear to do this (usually from the used market these days), you can resell it when done, but availability depends on your location.

[SuperS]

thank you so much for your answer, you've already helped me alot. Its so refreshing to find real help here after trying several other places without luck.
Yes of course, its composite. Sorry I got it mixed up. Hmm good point, could also be partly the camcorder's fault, because sometimes i hear this clickingnoise while playing thats often followed by frame drops. I dont really have a clue though if thats the camcorders or the tapes fault.
Yeah the site has so much info and I am very happy that I found it, but its also kind of overwhelming and a slap into the face because I hoped the process to be a little easier.

My very first computer came with a video capture card. I will check tonight if it is still around and if there might be a hidden gem ( ati all in wonder ) hidden inside it.
Its like 20+ tapes we have and I planned to try to save all of them. Time is no problem at all as I am a student and can always find some hours inbetween for a new hobby like that.
I dont care about the format too much. I already got the VirtualDub part with lossless video and audio capture working and after that I would just use sth like handbrake
to deinterlace and give me a decent mp4 file.
I have a chance to buy a cheap CCD-TR810E PAL Sony Hi8 Camcorder that has this black S-Video Plug that mine doesnt have, should I go for it?
For money reasons I still think its cheaper to do it on my own, the only part that concerns me is the TBC..
How does it come that we can watch the tapes without problem and with good enough quality on our LG Full HD screen that must convert
the signal to digital at some step aswell without ever needing a TBC and for capturing with a PC you need it or else nothing else works?

And if I really need it isnt there a cheap one, some little trick, or some other device that does the same just worse I could buy for less then 100 Euros?
Or some editing techniques I could apply afterwards to fix the worst problems I will have without a TBC?
I am from Austria and yes we have/had DVD Video Recorders. Could I skip the TBC if I buy one of those?

I have quite a few computers laying around from different family members.
The best one is a Windows 7 64bit laptop from 2012, i7 with 16gbs of ram. Worst one would be that old XP computer I've mentioned with some old AMD Processor in it.
Like i said, time is no big problem. Money is the bigger one. Maybe something like 100 - 150 euros would be possible for me to spend on this. But maybe I could go
a little higher indeed if you say people will buy it from me again..

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperS

I have a chance to buy a cheap CCD-TR810E PAL Sony Hi8 Camcorder that has this black S-Video Plug that mine doesnt have, should I go for it?

If it's in good condition, it may be worth it, depending on the price. Can't find the manual, but from what I can gather from other sites, this one has the TBC function that corrects jitter, so it would be a good option. The "newer" sony cameras are what most people recommend for this. Granted, the PAL ones do have the downside of a small band on the far right of the image having inverted chroma.

From a quick look at ebay, decent Hi8 cameras seems to start at maybe €100 + shipping and up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperS

How does it come that we can watch the tapes without problem and with good enough quality on our LG Full HD screen that must convert
the signal to digital at some step aswell without ever needing a TBC and for capturing with a PC you need it or else nothing else works?

Decent TV sets often have some of this functionality as part of the process that converts the signal to digital. Most capture devices do not. While the technology obviously exist, it hasn't really made its way into the capture dongles (except some expensive AJA and Magewell cards as far as I know).

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperS

And if I really need it isnt there a cheap one, some little trick, or some other device that does the same just worse I could buy for less then 100 Euros?

A DVD recorder may be sufficient, as the 8mm formats don't suffer from many of the issues that VHS tapes do. Personally I mostly use a Pioneer DVR-440H DVD recorder as a "TBC" when capturing Hi8 tapes from the sony cameras, and it works fine for this purpose (it can't live up the dedicated Datavideo TBC for crappy VHS tapes though). Additionally these devices can help with correcting jitter, and often have decent filters for separating luma/chroma when using a composite video source, which has been nice when I've had the occasional tape that played better in our Hi8 deck (that doesn't do jitter correction). The Panasonic DMR-ES10 and ES15 recorders seem to be favoured models on this forum, as they are especially good at dealing with shitty video signals. Other DVD-recorders may work as well.

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

Yeah the site has so much info and I am very happy that I found it, but its also kind of overwhelming and a slap into the face because I hoped the process to be a little easier.

This site is populated by a lot of people seeking near perfection in converted and restored video, and the substantial portion of the discussion and recommendations are focused on that goal. The trick is to determine how much is enough to meet your goals, and in the final analysis only you can do that.

S-video from the playback machine is a better connection than composite and worth having. Component is even better but you are not likely to find it. Video8 and Hi8 had an extended play recording mode. If any tapes used that recording mode they may present issues played on a different machine.

FWIW: some Digital8 camcorders (but not all) and Sony Digital8 Walkman can also play Video8/Hi8 tapes and offered IEEE1394 (aka: Firewire, iLink) output. The video is saved as a DV file. This may be a viable alternative if you do not plan to do any restoration and it can eliminate the need for a capture card. However, the PC you use will need a IEEE1394 port and appropriate drivers, that requires some extra effort with newer PCs. With Firewire an external TBC is generally not needed.

I've had reasonable results on Video8/Hi8 transfers from tape played in a Sony GV-D200 Digital8 Walkman to a Toshiba D-KR10 DVD recorder via Firewire. (This was just to dump tape to DVD, not for restoration purposes.)

A first step would be to find a good player, then determined whether or not adding TBC is essential to getting an acceptable capture. Note that buying used gear, especially from auction sides, is always a risk. The ideal approach is to be able to test the gear first, failing that buying from a reputable source.

Note that some of the analog video mixers, such as the Videonics MX-1, including a Frame TBC-like function that I've found helps some analog video tape sources. Whether or not you can find a working PAL version at a reasonable price is an open question.

And FWIW: for folks doing analog video capture and restoration Windows XP is the OS of choice.

[SuperS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

If it's in good condition, it may be worth it, depending on the price. Can't find the manual, but from what I can gather from other sites, this one has the TBC function that corrects jitter, so it would be a good option. The "newer" sony cameras are what most people recommend for this. Granted, the PAL ones do have the downside of a small band on the far right of the image having inverted chroma.
From a quick look at ebay, decent Hi8 cameras seems to start at maybe €100 + shipping and up.

I've just bought this (CCD-TR810E PAL) camcorder from a nice lady that was selling her fathers old stuff and it seems to be working just fine judging from the pictures she sent me today. I got it for less then 40€ so I am quite happy

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

A DVD recorder may be sufficient, as the 8mm formats don't suffer from many of the issues that VHS tapes do. Personally I mostly use a Pioneer DVR-440H DVD recorder as a "TBC" when capturing Hi8 tapes from the sony cameras, and it works fine for this purpose (it can't live up the dedicated Datavideo TBC for crappy VHS tapes though). The Panasonic DMR-ES10 and ES15 recorders seem to be favoured models on this forum, as they are especially good at dealing with shitty video signals. Other DVD-recorders may work as well.

I've also found the Panasonic DMR-ES15 in good condition for 27€, so I will get this badboy too! Thanks for this great piece of advice!!
But the question I have now is how exactly do I capture the tapes now with all this new equipment?
I guess I will connect my new Camcorder through S-Video with the DVD Recorder and then either just burn to DVD from there?? or connect the DVD Player to the PC and capture the video and audio with VirtualDub?? And if the latter is true I still need a halfway decent capture device. What could you recommend that doesnt brake the bank?
Thank you so much for your help so far, you are a lifesaver!

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

S-video from the playback machine is a better connection than composite and worth having.

Thats what I thought and also the TBC functions of the camcorder sound promising!

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

I've had reasonable results on Video8/Hi8 transfers from tape played in a Sony GV-D200 Digital8 Walkman to a Toshiba D-KR10 DVD recorder via Firewire. (This was just to dump tape to DVD, not for restoration purposes.)

Should have known that before I bought a Camcorder without Firewire. But lets see, if the CCD-TR810E does work out for me or not.. I can still sell it to someone else, cause I got it so cheap.
Do you have any experience with the workflow Hodgey suggested? Would you recommend the Firewire method over the "DVD Recorder instead of TBC" method? Thanks for your reply and help!

[dpalomaki]

Firewire came in with the digital formats (i.e., DV, MiniDV, and Digital8), so you are unlikely to find it on a Video8/Hi8 camcorder or VCR.

Try s-video to the DVD recorder. If that gives you acceptable results, and you are satisfied with the DVD media format declare victory. If the image is not stable, add a TBC. And you can always rip the video from the DVD and convert to another digital format (e.g., SD MP4) in your computer if you need it with minimal loss. (But this is not recommended for video restoration purposes.)

You can convert analog SD to a DV stream for capture via firewire with pass through devices if that interests you. Some MiniDV and Digital8 devices can do that as can devices such as the Canopus AVCD series. (But keep in mind that the the DV video data format is not recommended for restoration.)

If you need something better, then it is time for decent capture card, and probably a TBC. See other threads at this site for options.

And there is no advantage trying to upscale SD video to some HD format for storage/archive. Let the playback system do that for you if and when needed; e.g., a Bluray player connected to a HDTV via HDMI.

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperS

I've also found the Panasonic DMR-ES15 in good condition for 27€, so I will get this badboy too! Thanks for this great piece of advice!!
But the question I have now is how exactly do I capture the tapes now with all this new equipment?
I guess I will connect my new Camcorder through S-Video with the DVD Recorder and then either just burn to DVD from there?? or connect the DVD Player to the PC and capture the video and audio with VirtualDub??

If you have a capture card, yes, you connect s-video and audio from the camcorder to the input on the panasonic, and then S-video and audio from the output on the panasonic to the capture card. There is also some settings on the recorder that people recommend changing, like noise reduction. Someone that owns one would have to give the details, or maybe you can find a thread detailing it here. Burning to DVDs is an alternative, though that does limit you to the maximum bandwidth and quality of the DVD format.

Also, don't know which capture card you had in the old computer. May be worth checking before buying a new one.

[SuperS]

At the moment I still have this "Aplic USB Audio/Video Grabber" that I am planning to send back because it gave me terrible captures. Amazon is full with good reviews though.. Might look good with the new camcorder and the DVD recorder. What do you say?

I had to learn the hard way yesterday that my mother threw the old computer out years ago, so the potential ati aiw capture card is gone
But we have another Windows XP machine laying around. If its one with agp slots, I might just buy another ati all in wonder as they are quite cheap if you find them used here in austria.

The gear I bought comes without cables so I have to buy 2 S-Video Cables (one to connect the cam to the dvd recorder and one to connect the dvd recorder to the computer) and also 2 composite cables and just use the audio cables; is that about right?

thanks for all the help, its really appreciated!

[hodgey]

I have no idea about the Aplic video grabber, the only info I can find about it is the amazon page, so I guess it's some rebrand of an chinese OEM device. Since you have it sitting around it should be easy enough to test it once you get the cables, it could be decent or horrible, depending on what chip the maker used. If you decide to get an ATI AIW, make sure you get one that has the needed adapter cables and breakout box.

And yeah, you need 2x S-video and 2 sets of audio cinch/RCA (composite) cables. You can get these with just audio cables as well which may or may not be cheaper.

Also, shame about the thrown out computer. I've lost some old computer stuff myself due to parents bugging me to get rid of it (still miss my 19" CRT).

[NJRoadfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperS

Hi everybody. I am quite new to this topic so please go easy on me

Some weeks ago when me and my family tried to rewatch old homemade 8mm PAL tapes of the early 90s we found out that some of them have started to become difficult to watch, due to lots of audio and video breaks while playing it on our tv (with the good old component method we've always used).

What brand were the tapes? I've had trouble with early 90's Sony Hi-8 tapes in particular.

[SuperS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

If you decide to get an ATI AIW, make sure you get one that has the needed adapter cables and breakout box.

I could buy one with PCI Express called ATI AIW 2006 (including all the cables). Do you know if this is one of the recommended devices or should I go with sth else? And whats a breakout box?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

And yeah, you need 2x S-video and 2 sets of audio cinch/RCA (composite) cables. You can get these with just audio cables as well which may or may not be cheaper.

Thx will buy those cables!

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

Also, shame about the thrown out computer. I've lost some old computer stuff myself due to parents bugging me to get rid of it (still miss my 19" CRT).

Yeah sometimes they just dont get that old electronics can be useful and/or valuable at some point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJRoadfan

What brand were the tapes? I've had trouble with early 90's Sony Hi-8 tapes in particular.

I have different brands, sony among them (older 8mm though, not hi-8). But its highly possible that those are the most corrupted ones.