Use Hi8 Camcorder with internal TBC with external TBC?

[JPMedia]

I've been following a few recent threads about Hi8/Digital8 camcorder workflows and I'm looking for clarity regarding TBCs.

I'm currently using a Sony CCD-TRV66 which has an S-Video connector and internal TBC which outputs a much clearer picture than the older Sony CCD-TR28 I was using before. Following the logic of a VHS tape conversion workflow, one would use a playback device with internal TBC and an external TBC.

For Example:

JVC S-VHS VCR => Datavideo TBC-1000 => ATI AIW 9000

It's my understanding that internal "line" TBCs and external "frame" TBCs correct analog signals differently and are best used in tandem. A few users have suggested that this workflow is potentially detrimental when capturing tapes from Hi8/Digital8 camcorders. However it has also been mentioned that using an external TBC would prevent dropped frames during capture.

If my camcorder already has internal TBC, should I be using an external TBC along with it?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPMedia

For Example: JVC S-VHS VCR => Datavideo TBC-1000 => ATI AIW 9000
It's my understanding that internal "line" TBCs and external "frame" TBCs correct analog signals differently and are best used in tandem.

You understand correctly.

Quote:

A few users have suggested that this workflow is potentially detrimental when capturing tapes from Hi8/Digital8 camcorders.

They are not correct, no such detriment occurs. In most cases, the internal Hi8 TBC does nothing overly discernible. It's mostly to make the camera playback behave, maybe some minor visual corrections -- as opposed to VHS which has very obvious visual effects.

Quote:

However it has also been mentioned that using an external TBC would prevent dropped frames during capture.

Internal TBCs do not prevent dropped frames, Again, internal and external have different functions. The function of the external is to prevent dropped frames.

Quote:

If my camcorder already has internal TBC, should I be using an external TBC along with it?

Yes.
Same workflow: VCR/camera (with TBC) > external TBC > capture card

[hodgey]

I can't speak for NTSC, but at least for PAL cameras, the internal TBC considerably reduces horizontal jitter like the tbcs in the VHS machines.

[dpalomaki]

It may be of interest to note that some Hi8 camcorders included sophisticated internal DSP (for their era, the early 1990s) that provided some TBC-like functionality. For Example the Canon A1 Digital and L1/L2 included field (not frame) A/D and D/A buffering that would effectively ensure stable scan lines within the field (8-bit for Y, 6-bit for C). Unfortunately those models appear to suffer from capacitor issues.

The TBC in the Sony EV-S7000 Hi8 VCR is also field level.

[Eric-Jan]

So not all Digital8 cameras have a DV(iLink/Firewire) output ? some have also composite audio/video input,
a pc with Firewire interface makes things easy.

[hodgey]

Digital8 cameras do, but not (non-digital8) Video8 and Hi8 cameras.

[Eric-Jan]

Does the OP have an Digtal8 camera ? no TBC needed that way by using the DV/iLink/Firewire connection to the computer.

[JPMedia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

Does the OP have an Digtal8 camera ?

As stated in the first post In this thread,

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPMedia

I'm currently using a Sony CCD-TRV66 which has an S-Video connector

Eric-Jan, it comes as a surprise to me that you weren't aware of this. Based on your recent posting history it is clear that you spend a fair amount of time reading technical manuals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

no TBC needed that way by using the DV/iLink/Firewire connection to the computer.

In the 2nd post of this thread lordsmurf gave a clear explanation as to why I should use a camera with internal line TBC and an external frame TBC in my Video8/Hi8 tape capture workflow. Again the CCD-TRV66 is a Hi8 camcorder with S-Video and composite video out, not a Digital8 camcorder with a firewire port.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

a pc with Firewire interface makes things easy.

The operative word here being easy. If you haven't already done so I highly recommend you read this site's DV Capture FAQ and Myth Guide http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/capture-dv.htm

Two points of interest to you will be

Quote:

7. DV is not a perfect format. In fact, it’s not even one of the best formats, it’s just very popular. As a shooting format, it’s a good VHS replacement, nothing more. The DV format (referring to the consumer DV25 format, NTSC version) is often criticized for not having a standardized codec and for having chroma issues because of colorspace compression. This can present itself in several ways, such as red or green hues being pumped up and fake looking, causing unpleasant video color quality. Contrast can also vary from the source. The format can also suffer from pixelation of bright colored areas. These problems are not seen on lesser-compressed formats. DV was a balance between editing quality and file compression, favoring editing. MPEG is similar in this regard, although it favors compression. It’s major drawback is the 4:1:1 colorspace compression (when discussing NTSC users). Most other formats use 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 and others. PAL DV uses 4:2:0 and is therefore pretty decent. Remember that DV was invented in the age of Pentium III CPUs and 500MB hard drives, and is very dated.

and

Quote:

10. DV has no relation to TBC. The DV format and a time-base corrector has no relation. Salesmen at B&H Photo and Video have (in the past) been guilty of suggesting a DV box is a TBC replacement, which is so wrong it’s laughable. It’s akin to saying a potato is a replacement for a computer … makes no sense whatsoever.

I implore you to use this site's search function to do some further research into TBC, DV, Firewire, and compression formats.

[Eric-Jan]

Sorry, i was hoping for: if one has two cameras, maybe a 3rd is also at hand, further, i speak mostly from my own experiences, in the past i "played" also with DVR's a MiniDV camera, Hi8 camera, even have used a "portable" VHS recorder with seperate camera, (saticon tube) a lot of what i now read here i find a bit exacarated for capturing VHS or other format tapes, i have recordings here from over 30 years, and more, quality varies a lot from what was broadcasted, and you can only slightly, if at all, improve on that, it's a hobby for me, not a profession, i think an advanced user/hobbyist will never be satisfied, for me it's transfering unique recordings, i can't find on youtube, made by the Dutch broadcasters here, a lot of the recordings were overwritten because of the expensive Ampex tapes it took, history erased... so i'm easily satisfied.... if it looks okay to me, it's okay to me, you can't even compare the studio quality they had then, with the digital quality amateurs have now.
But i do find that the VHS tapes have a longer life than was expected, under normal conditions, and are still in good shape now.

btw. i do remember 4:2:2 was also the color space for certain satellite feeds (MPEG2) when i still had a working satellite set i "played" with, i could hook up the hard drive from it, to my pc, and with a tool transfering the files to my main pc HDD,
all was FTA so no problem (topfield) that was fun ! now it's torrents

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

But i do find that the VHS tapes have a longer life than was expected, under normal conditions, and are still in good shape now.

Yes, there was too much scaremongering going on in the 2000s, BS from amateur conversion shops (almost all of which have eventually succumbed to the ash heap, and good riddance). VHS tapes have a lifespan of about 35-65 years, depending on various factors (tape grade, usage/abuse, storage, climate).

Quote:

btw. i do remember 4:2:2 was also the color space for certain satellite feeds (MPEG2) when i still had a working satellite set i "played" with, i could hook up the hard drive from it, to my pc, and with a tool transfering the files to my main pc HDD,
all was FTA so no problem (topfield) that was fun ! now it's torrents

Yes, that was fun, wasn't it. I was also in that scene.

[ehbowen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

VHS tapes have a lifespan of about 35065 years, depending on various factors (tape grade, usage/abuse, storage, climate).

You may need to protect them against Morlocks in twenty thousand years or so...

[lordsmurf]

Typo.

That was supposed to read "35-65 years".

[ehbowen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Typo.

That was supposed to read "35-65 years".

I figured.

Still, when I first saw it, my initial reaction was, "Why even bother with M-DISCs?"

[Eric-Jan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehbowen

I figured.

Still, when I first saw it, my initial reaction was, "Why even bother with M-DISCs?"

MegaDiscs? no > mDisc miniDisc

[ehbowen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

MegaDiscs? no > mDisc miniDisc

An M-DISC is a DVD or Blu-ray which is optimized for archival storage. It uses an inorganic data storage matrix which is more stable and less prone to break down over time than the dyes normally used in these applications. It was given the moniker "M" because the designers claimed that data stored on these discs could be readable and safe for up to a thousand years.

Key words: "Up to." Any time you're dealing with physical objects, you have to be prepared for damage, or perhaps an improper burn, or just plain old bad luck. Still, with a good burn and when given proper care and stored in a cool dry place, an M-Disc should safeguard family memories and such for a couple hundred years...if you can find a Blu-ray player to play them with in 2319!

The discs can be played on any DVD or Blu-ray player, but burning them requires a specially rated burner. (I have four!) They're rather expensive, and the multi-layer Blu-rays especially will empty your bank account quick! Still, they're a good option for those who are concerned about long term retention. As with any other backup option, best to have multiple copies with at least one kept in a safe offsite location.

[Eric-Jan]

All in all, there, seems to be no real solution, most of the time a downside is allways present, what i did notice, discs should be stored in a dark space over a period of time, and some manufactors protect the dye/damped up(label) side better, an extra plastic layer, with silk screened print on it.
I do have a collection optical cd and dvd drives here, i got send to by Plextor during the time i was a Beta tester for Plextor,
In the early days i had to order my first HP optical cd burner, which gave me problems mostly because of te firmware, and had to use DOS tools to burn a disc windows 3.11 was too slow most of the time, i became beta tester because Rik Swusten from Plextor EU (located in Belgium) read my (then) Newsgroup posts, and offered me the beta testing job by email, no joke, which i first thought it was, also got their Plextor video capture device which worked also with Firewire, and their Plextools app.
fun time ! free drives free media, but the whole thing stopped before their BluRay burner came out.... and the europe beta testers where not needed anymore, but the Pextool became a good tool because of that, capturing also hidden cd tracks, which where made in the cue sheet, also defeated copy protection etc.. fun

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehbowen

optimized for archival storage.
more stable and less prone to break down over time than the dyes normally used in these applications readable and safe for up to a thousand years.

Yeah, so sayeth the marketing. Independent verification hasn't been so kind, and find little difference between it ($1/disc) and quality media like Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim ($0.25/disc). It's just another item that, quite frankly, is marketed to the gullible. Like "DVD safe" markers, or even the gag gift "DVD rewinders".

Quote:

As with any other backup option, best to have multiple copies with at least one kept in a safe offsite location.

And on different media, such as hard drive, or even printed copies of important documents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

All in all ...

... we seem to be straying quite a bit off-topic to the original post.

[Eric-Jan]

I find the discussion about TBC's internal or external a bit foggy for a normal user who just want to transfer his tapes that he wants to archive these memorable recordings, where the right VCR can do the job without an external TBC,
these VCR's are still there, or also from users who already transfered their tapes, and can recomend their VCR,
people are also satified with a DV/Digital8 option, every situation is also a trial and error course, which combination works best,
there's no ready made solution, also depending on the quality of the tapes, adding an TBC is a complete new ballgame, the Pro ones are made for studio grade equipment, and the consumer ones are of doubtfull quality, or need a UPS and need mods, if it is even the right one.

[JPMedia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

... we seem to be straying quite a bit off-topic to the original post.

Agreed. Thank you for leaving a detailed response to my original question all the way up there in post #2