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  #1  
09-08-2018, 02:24 AM
EvoPortals EvoPortals is offline
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Hello, first quick thanks to everyone here, I learned alot and am almost ready to start capturing my old VHS tapes. I think the problem is the guides on this website are designed to capture VHS video via VirtualDub specifically to later create DVD or Bluray discs. I just want to capture the correct aspect ratio to AVI which I will then convert to deinterlaced h.264 at 60fps via handbrake. I think this path is superior since DVD and BluRay players are obsolete IMO and cant reproduce the true deinterlaced 60fps.

Capturing video in VirtualDub to AVI at 720x480 stretches the video out horizontally when I play the file back on PC. From what I understand VHS is 4:3, 720x480 is not. Would capturing at 640x480 be OK?

My setup:
ATI AIW 9000
JVC 9600u VCR
AVT-8710 TBC
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  #2  
09-08-2018, 02:38 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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It depends also which capture device you use, sometimes a OS has only limited support for it, so you will always use any other software in your post workflow.
BlackMagic Design does both soft and hardware, so that can be a great advantage that way, problems are quickly solved by one "party"
Be aware, Handbrake has many options in it's settings, which also go outside the specs of hardware media players, quality software won't allow you to do that, a lot of effort with Handbrake you waste that way, and might only be watchable with VLC
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  #3  
09-08-2018, 03:06 AM
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Welcome to the forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoPortals View Post
Hello, first quick thanks to everyone here, I learned alot and am almost ready to start capturing my old VHS tapes. I think the problem is the guides on this website are designed to capture VHS video via VirtualDub specifically to later create DVD or Bluray discs. I just want to capture the correct aspect ratio to AVI which I will then convert to deinterlaced h.264 at 60fps via handbrake. I think this path is superior since DVD and BluRay players are obsolete IMO and cant reproduce the true deinterlaced 60fps.

Capturing video in VirtualDub to AVI at 720x480 stretches the video out horizontally when I play the file back on PC. From what I understand VHS is 4:3, 720x480 is not. Would capturing at 640x480 be OK?

My setup:
ATI AIW 9000
JVC 9600u VCR
AVT-8710 TBC
AR = aspect ratio
SAR = storage aspect ratio
DAR = display aspect ratio

720x480 is SAR for NTSC
The 720x480 pixels are not square, but rectangle. On display, the DAR is 4:3.

AVI has no AR flag, is 1:1 square. But AVI is also not a watching format, only capture/edit/restore. For watching, the make a later copy as MPEG with flags for SAR/DAR, or convert to 1x1 square aspect H.264 as MP4/MKV.

Capturing to 640x480 is often not ideal, because you lose some of the needed data. To convert VHS to streaming, you must properly deinterlace, change aspect ratio, and either mask or crop the overscan.

The idea of "true 60fps" is also not really accurate. Interlaced content was 50% height/resolution, and missing data on every other line. Only half the picture is 60fps. With a quality deinterlace, you're creating all new data both in-frame and inter-frame. A new 60fps (actual 59.94fps) is just as valid as 29.97fps, as there was never a "true" with the format. It was interlaced.

The ideal method to archive VHS is as 15mbps MPEG-2 interlaced, which is both a broadcast and Blu-ray spec. DVD is too compressed, and lossless is overkill for mere archives. And BTW, that ATI AIW card can capture 15-20mbps MPEG2 in ATI MMC.

Also: Hopefully that AVT-8710 is green, not black. The black units all have defects, bad chipsets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
BlackMagic Design does both soft and hardware, so that can be a great advantage that way, problems are quickly solved by one "party"
That sentence makes absolutely no sense.

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  #4  
09-08-2018, 03:09 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoPortals View Post
Hello, first quick thanks to everyone here, I learned alot and am almost ready to start capturing my old VHS tapes. I think the problem is the guides on this website are designed to capture VHS video via VirtualDub specifically to later create DVD or Bluray discs. I just want to capture the correct aspect ratio to AVI which I will then convert to deinterlaced h.264 at 60fps via handbrake. I think this path is superior since DVD and BluRay players are obsolete IMO and cant reproduce the true deinterlaced 60fps.

Capturing video in VirtualDub to AVI at 720x480 stretches the video out horizontally when I play the file back on PC. From what I understand VHS is 4:3, 720x480 is not. Would capturing at 640x480 be OK?

My setup:
ATI AIW 9000
JVC 9600u VCR
AVT-8710 TBC
Your understanding of video properties is not very accurate or up to date, either.

720x480 gives you greater horizontal resolution to work with. It's easily resized to anything you want, and there are various resizers and deinterlacers that just aren't very good at all, especially with Handbrake's defaults (and talk about limited software, wow!).

Yes, you can capture at 640x480, especially since you don't seem to understand that anamorphic software is still in use (even with BluRay and 4K) and that many prefer to view video in full movie size with true color on properly calibrated plasmas and LED's, not on inaccurate computer screens or with lower-quality PC graphics cards that will never match a good calibrated TV and a first-rate disc player that can easily outdo any PC-based disc or media player. While quality has gone downhill in the USA due to the popularity of YouTube, lower bitrate streaming services and PC-based playback, Europe and the UK haven't yet been convinced that DVD, BluRay and TV are on their way out. Maybe that's why BBC broadcasts still look so great over there and in the U.S. At 640x480, by the time you remove side borders and lower-border head-switching noise, you don't have much video left and will do some damage by resizing to fill a 640x480 frame and get slightly lopsided aspect ratios rather replace dirty border pixels with clean ones in Avisynth. If your video source uses telecine or other forms of pulldown, you can't deinterlace (many tv shows and old movies do use it) -- you have to use inverse telecine and work with the resulting framerate or learn to apply pulldown yourself if you want 29.97 fps (and anything that uses pulldown must be played back as interlaced). Inverse telecine won't output double frame rate, so 60fps from those videos isn't possible.

Deinterlacing is for the birds but it's sometimes necessary for various purposes, usually for VHS capture cleanup. Deinterlacing always has a cost. Always. Period. The best deinterlacer out there is QTGMC and two favored resizers are Spline36Resize and Spline64Resize. Set up Handbrake to use these superior Avisynth features.

If you are thinking that capturing at 720x480 stretches the frame, you're not quite correct. DVD and standard definition BluRay use 720x480 anamorphic encoded for either 4:3 or 16:9 display. New DVD and BluRay titles appear every day. 720x480 lossless AVI has no display aspect ratio flags, so it always plays at a 3:2 ratio. Hint: 640x480 lossless AVI doesn't have aspect ratio flags either, it just so happens that 640x480 uncompressed AVI is a square-pixel 4:3 format to begin with. But if you want a standard definition or 1920x1080 BluRay or a dvd to send ton rfrien ds and/or family, you can't use 640x480, you can't use non-interlaced encodes, and you can't use 59.94 fps.

Last edited by sanlyn; 09-08-2018 at 03:24 AM.
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  #5  
09-08-2018, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Your understanding of video properties is not very accurate or up to date, either.
especially since you don't seem to understand that anamorphic software is still in use
Be nice. He's asking because he doesn't know, he's confused, and willing to learn. I respect that.
Asking questions is what the forum is for.

Quote:
640x480 lossless AVI
Don't forget this: Most lossless codecs will reject 640x480, and can only use 720x480.

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  #6  
09-08-2018, 05:33 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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Your JVC 9600u VCR has build-in TBC and NR according to its manual, so it needs no external TBC.
I've a JVC HR-S8960 and capture with a Intensity Shuttle and this works fine, and the Intensity Shuttle really needs a clean video signal, which it gets from this JVC recorder. and software does the rest.

btw. do a Wiki search about aspect ratios and resolutions, these Wiki's have very detailed info.
btw2. It's 30fps or 60 fields/s for NTSC
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09-08-2018, 08:12 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Your understanding of video properties is not very accurate or up to date either.
especially since you don't seem to understand that anamorphic software is still in use
Be nice. He's asking because he doesn't know, he's confused, and willing to learn. I respect that.
Asking questions is what the forum is for.
Uh-oh. Must have been the early hour. There was a lot of ground to cover and two quick coffees was probably too much octane too soon.

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Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
Your JVC 9600u VCR has build-in TBC and NR according to its manual, so it needs no external TBC.
Not quite right.

The tbc in VCR's is a line-level tbc designed to prevent scanline errors within individual frames. An external tbc is designed to correct frame-to-frame signal errors that cause dropped frames and bad audio sync, and to remove copy protection errors from most VHS tapes. They are frame-level tbc's. They have no effect on scanline errors, while line-level tbc's have no effect on frame timing errors. You can have almost perfect scanlines in frames from a VCR but your tape won't be output at the constant speed expected by digital capture devices, and very often frame timing errors can generate false copy protection signals. Both types of tbc are needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
I've a JVC HR-S8960 and capture with a Intensity Shuttle and this works fine, and the Intensity Shuttle really needs a clean video signal, which it gets from this JVC recorder. and software does the rest.
Not even JVC's aggressive dnr is that clean, and the Intensity Shuttle has long been persona non grata among hobbyists and pro's alike, mainly because of dropped frames. Use at your own risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
btw. do a Wiki search about aspect ratios and resolutions, these Wiki's have very detailed info.
btw2. It's 30fps or 60 fields/s for NTSC
That's not quite right either. NTSC DVD and BluRay are not 30fps. You have to be more exacting than that. NTSC DVD and BluRay are 29.97 fps, while NTSC film for BluRay can be 23.976. The two specs are pretty picky about such things, so don't be surprised if you capture or encode NTSC for "30fps" and have problems with it. If you inverse-telecine an NTSC film-based movie tape you'll very likely get a frame rate of 23.976, even for India-based and BBC movies and from a lot of NTSC animation. And you can't post telecined material on the 'net because for all practical purposes it plays as interlaced. If you deinterlace telecined material instead of removing telecine fields you'll get periodic duplicate frames, jerky motion, and some ghosting between frames.

Assuming that you won't need cleanup with VHS is going to be a disappointment. DNR can't clean all chroma problems, chroma shift, spots, comets, border stains, dropouts, frame hops, bad gradients, head-switching noise, input level problems, moire, sloppy interlace anomalies, color blotches, goofups from bad tape mastering, and lots of other glitches that are native to analog tape. There are plenty of captures in this and other forums that demonstrate how dependence on even the best dnr from JVC and Panasonic often fall far short of ideal. Throw some of your capture samples our way and we'll prove it. Sometimes the input will come through looking pretty clean. Sometimes it won't. There are also a lot of advanced users around who aren't very happy with the way JVC's dnr removes too much detail and who turn off dnr on many high-end players for a variety of reasons, notably because it can soften video and cause ghosting and smearing during motion. Don't expect perfection with analog tape from any VCR , regardless of the name on the label.
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  #8  
09-08-2018, 10:50 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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Yes, we are talking about VHS tape capturing, and VCR's so output will be "just" standard NTSC or PAL, nothing else.
I have Panasonic and JVC recorder both have TBC's both give me no dropped frames, there's nothing wrong with the Intensity Shuttle, external TBC's don't solve all problems, garbage in, garbage out.

btw. upscaling to a higher framerate makes no sense, there's no advantage in that.

Last edited by Eric-Jan; 09-08-2018 at 11:43 AM.
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  #9  
09-08-2018, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
Your JVC 9600u VCR has build-in TBC and NR according to its manual, so it needs no external TBC.
No. TBC is a fairly loose term, and can describe multiple functions.

The line TBC inside a VCR only exists to clean up the visuals of the image. It does little to nothing for the stability of the signal, beyond the simple side effect stability caused by image cleaning.

An external frame sync TBC is for stabilizing and purifying the signal at a whole-frame level, and not for cleaning the image. It does have some mild cleaning properties, such as occasional jitter reduction, but that's not why you use it. Furthermore, TBC is not TBC. and certain models from DataVideo and Cypress are specifically made for consumer/VHS sources, and rackmount broadcast TBCs are known to choke on the noisier sources as those expect non-consumer sources.

You need both.

Not using both is a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
I have Panasonic and JVC recorder both have TBC's both give me no dropped frames,
You need to also realize that you use Blackmagic gear, which does not report dropped frames, a well known issues, even admitted to by Blackmagic themselves.

Quote:
external TBC's don't solve all problems, garbage in, garbage out.
This is too often used as an excuse, and isn't always true. I've turned a lot of "garbage" into immaculate videos in my day, as restoration is what I do. Yes, sometimes certain errors are not correctable, but the biggest issue tends to be having a stack of quality hardware to process the tape.

More accurate is often "garbage equipment, garbage playback".

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  #10  
09-08-2018, 12:09 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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How does one notice "not reported dropped frames" ?
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09-08-2018, 12:12 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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So I don't want to derail the thread too much, but I wanted to respond to the "no tbc needed" statement. (Feel free to move this to a new thread.)
To illustrate a bit, I made some samples using the USB3 blackmagic intensity I had sitting here.

I've attached 4 clips, all captured from my JVC HR-S8500.

raw notbc.mp4
Raw output from the VCR, directly into the capture card with the TBC on the VCR turned off using S-Video.

raw.mp4
The same but with TBC in the VCR turned on

jvc2.mp4
This one I used a JVC DR-MH300 DVD recorder as a TBC (not at my recording place so I don't have my datavideo here but this should do), using S-Video over scart from the VCR, and capturing from the MH300 to the intensity using the HDMI output on the MH300. TBC on the VCR was on.

jvc notbc.mp4
Same as previous, but with the TBC on the VCR was turned off.

It doesn't black frame as much as I remember, but it's still noticeable (Maybe they've changed some setting for the chip?). On a good section of tape, it can handle things okay it seems if the TBC is on, but as you can see, on a break in the signal (between two different recordings), the intensity struggles, while the DVD-Recorder has no issues. The black frames are not reported (in virtualdub) as dropped frames, but it does report a number of inserted frames if the signal is bad. Most other capture cards tend to respond a bit differently, maybe I'll do a comparison with another dongle later. Also notice how the intensity doesn't record the menu at all.

(There are two black flashes on the start of the HDMI recording, but that seems to only be something that happens when the recording starts. Also hadn't bothered to connect the audio on the raw capture.)


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  #12  
09-08-2018, 12:17 PM
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What's truly a sad statement about the Blackmagic box is that the JVC has no TBC/TBC(ish) of any kind, and only a very weak frame sync. The JVC recorders have amazing recording quality, thanks to that LSI chip, but the signal correction has always been pitiful.

So, yeah... wow. BM worse than the JVC.

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  #13  
09-08-2018, 12:25 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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The Intensity Shuttle USB3 has USB interface/chipset issues, also stated by BlackMagic Design, the Thunderbolt 2 interface does not have these Issues.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/note/9712
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09-08-2018, 02:59 PM
EvoPortals EvoPortals is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Welcome to the forum.

AR = aspect ratio
SAR = storage aspect ratio
DAR = display aspect ratio

720x480 is SAR for NTSC
The 720x480 pixels are not square, but rectangle. On display, the DAR is 4:3.

AVI has no AR flag, is 1:1 square. But AVI is also not a watching format, only capture/edit/restore. For watching, the make a later copy as MPEG with flags for SAR/DAR, or convert to 1x1 square aspect H.264 as MP4/MKV.

Capturing to 640x480 is often not ideal, because you lose some of the needed data. To convert VHS to streaming, you must properly deinterlace, change aspect ratio, and either mask or crop the overscan.
Ok, so my plan is now to capture everything as I have currently setup via your guide at 720x480. Then afterwards convert the video with the correct aspect in H.264 format for displays that have square pixels. I'm not interested in storing my VHS tapes in the old VHS storage aspect ratio as every display out there uses square pixels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The ideal method to archive VHS is as 15mbps MPEG-2 interlaced, which is both a broadcast and Blu-ray spec. DVD is too compressed, and lossless is overkill for mere archives. And BTW, that ATI AIW card can capture 15-20mbps MPEG2 in ATI MMC.
Yes this was going to be my last resort but Im worried about loosing too much quality double compressing to MPEG-2 and then to H.264. I'm not worried about hard drive space. I have two 4TB drives if needed.

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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Also: Hopefully that AVT-8710 is green, not black. The black units all have defects, bad chipsets.
Unfortunately it is the black version but I bought it from a seller that also did his VHS conversions with it so hopefully it will be OK (he bought it brand new and showed me receipts). The 4 or 5 tapes I've been testing my setup with did not benefit at all from the external TBC. I think virtualDub does a fine job keeping everything in sync well enough. The JVC 9600u was a true miracle for my tapes. The internal TBC is on, and I have all image enhancements and noise reduction settings turned off in the JVC as some of the settings looked terrible (very soft image). If there are some minor "hiccups" in the video signal I'm OK with that as long as the audio is in sync. If things don't look right I'll resort to the AVT-8710.

I just have a sense that everyone here is creating DVD or BluRay disk of their home VHS tapes and not converting to modern formats to be watched on computers, mobile devices, Youtube, smart TVs, ect.

Last edited by EvoPortals; 09-08-2018 at 03:28 PM.
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  #15  
09-08-2018, 03:27 PM
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You're not really going to lose much quality going from a 15-20mbps broadcast/BD-spec MPEG down to compressed H.264. I do it all the time. The MPEG is for archives, since the tape was not in need of editing or restoration. And then the copy for streaming network viewing is deinterlaced in Avisynth with QTGMC, opened with ffvideosource. That is fed either directly to Hybrid, or into VirtualDub2 for H.264 encoding. Hybrid gives more encoding options, but no preview, so only used for whoelsale encoding. To do cut-editing, VirtualDub2 with preview is used, and I just live with the lesser options/compression in x264. You can also run a few quick VirtualDub filters for noise reduction and chroma noise removal (CCD 1.7) to aid the x264 encoding quality.

If the AVT-8710 is black, it has defects, period. Some have more, some have less, but it's ever-present. The simple test is to use a JVC S-VHS VCR, and quickly scroll through the menus. The bad TBC will freeze and lock.

Yes, that JVC is a miracle worker, I felt the same way 20 years ago. It's a nice feeling isn't it?

You plan is fine, it just needed some direction.

There are many ways to do video, from the anal methods that must be followed for restoration, to the quicker (yet still good) methods if your source is relatively fine (and was played on good VCRs with TBCs). I use all of them, depending on the project needs. AVI captures, MPEG captures. Computer capture, DVD recorders. I'm not a purist, but pragmatic.

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09-08-2018, 05:21 PM
EvoPortals EvoPortals is offline
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Yes, that JVC is a miracle worker, I felt the same way 20 years ago. It's a nice feeling isn't it?
Before coming to this website I figured it would be no problem transferring my VHS tapes with my crappy WinTV pci card and low end Toshiba VCR. I have family recordings on VHS from 35 years ago when my dad only had a B&W camcorder that wasn't even cordless, you had to plug it into the VCR with a cable. I was HORRIFIED when I started to play them back on the Toshiba VCR. I thought the tapes were ruined somehow due to all the distortion. I almost cried in joy when I bought the JVC recently and they played fine.
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09-08-2018, 11:53 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoPortals View Post
I just have a sense that everyone here is creating DVD or BluRay disk of their home VHS tapes and not converting to modern formats to be watched on computers, mobile devices, Youtube, smart TVs, ect.
In other words, you're all for the new teensty-weentsy and restricted-bitrate streaming formats. Enjoy. I'm afraid I'm still stuck on higher quality and higher-accutance video on larger and more accurate display devices, encoded at the highest bitrates available. Guess I just grew up that way and can't let myself downgrade to YouTube. I don't have much use for smart TV's. They're not as smart as my OPPO and DENON media players. But everyone has their preferences. I grew up with relatives in the movie projection business -- you know: film, the real thing. I guess it spoiled me for anything else.

If your computer can't play DVD or BluRay, it needs some serious upgrading. As for myself, I'd rather watch full-blown DVD and BluRay on a well-calibrated TV or in a cinema (with real-butter popcorn!). For video work, my two IPS PC monitors are calibrated to D6500 standards so that what I see in my PC video work will match the way it appears on TV. For best results in your video work, be sure to calibrate your TV with one of the many calibration kits available, such as those sold at Amazon and B&H Photo, like the XRite I1 Display pro, XRite ColorMunki, or DataColor's Spyder 5. Proper calibration will save you a lot of grief.

Good luck in your projects. Don't hesitate to ask questions or post samples for analysis. There are advanced users and pros here who, all together, are familiar with just about everything in video. And for processing and quality control tips, try browsing the restoration and quality improvement forum.

Last edited by sanlyn; 09-09-2018 at 12:09 AM.
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  #18  
09-10-2018, 02:06 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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So, yeah... wow. BM worse than the JVC.
That doesn't make any sense, because they are two different types of devices
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09-11-2018, 07:40 AM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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..sad statement about the Blackmagic box is that the JVC has no TBC/TBC(ish) of any kind..
I think he was referring to "since the JVC has no TBC/Line-TBC" of any kind, the Blackmagic will have to perform all (if any) line and frame stablization and it has "no TBC/Line-TBC" so essentially none.

Don't get the JVCs mixed up, the 9600 model has a very good line-TBC but other models have no line-TBC. A line-TBC stablizes a "few" lines within a field, but not an entire frame before output (its good for side to side, interline problems like "tearing or flagging") but an external TBC handles the full frame (its good for up and down, bouncy problems like "jitter") so you need both to fully stablize a picture. Any of these can cause a dropped frame and loss of sync between the audio and video captured, once sync is lost its difficult to sync up again, unless the capture device "notices" the frame it had to drop by comparing with a common timebase inside the capture device between audio and video sample periods.. if the capture device is too cheap or doesn't have the ability to notice frame drop.. it does nothing and the audio "drifts" over time.. and you have to manually correct in post production by "eyeballing it" .. but the drift tends to be non-linear.. so you have to correct it.. manually over and over again.. or give up

The Blackmagic (BM) has no signal conditioning on its inputs... so its vulnerable to frame drop.. and from this thread it won't notice a frame drop or report that to software down the line.. so audio sync drift is likely.. and will drive you nuts. A capture device can try to correct for frame drop or just report it, if it does neither.. its probably not worth your time. The BM is "inexpensive" and built-for near perfect video signals like that from a live video camera, or the direct output from a computer rendering video in a broadcast booth.. its not built-for an imperfect VHS playback from a 30 year old tape at SP or EP speeds with a rickety servo controlled tape winder.

So he was referring to the fact BM is worse off than the JVC which at least has some "Picture" filters for signal conditioning on its outputs.

A lot of the information in this thread was up to my forehead.. but not over the top of my head.

These are the "absolute best" professional video capture and restoration specialists on the web, and they know their stuff to the "n-th" degree.. you should feel very honored. But they are also giving you a masters degree in video capture "options" you didn't know you had.. and if your as slow as I am.. it will take a year or two to fully realize (or suspect) all the interelated things they are explaining in a very fast and efficient manner.

Its a blessing and a curse, if you get curious and drawn in it will become a serious hobby.. but if your collection is small and project brief you'll have to drink from the firehose.. make your choices and quickly move on... to their credit .. you'll probably develop a curiosity and hang around a bit.

Good Luck!

Last edited by jwillis84; 09-11-2018 at 08:13 AM.
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The following users thank jwillis84 for this useful post: BarryTheCrab (09-11-2018), lordsmurf (09-13-2018)
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09-11-2018, 10:10 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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thankyou, jwillis84, yes, a capture device isn't a vcr, the whole TBC issue goes over my head, and i'm happy i don't need one, i'm not into perfection that way, and i am easily satisfied, i'm not a pro or have to make money out of it.
for me, my BMD device does it's work just fine.
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