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  #1  
09-19-2018, 03:22 PM
JPMedia JPMedia is online now
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Hello again,

As I have come to realize over the past few months, quality analog video capture is no simple task. Now that my Windows XP capture PC is up and running again I thought I'd try capturing more tapes. Unfortunately I've hit another roadblock.

Before capturing in VirtualDub, I set the video output size to 720x480. I am capturing from a JVC SR-V10U that is connected to a Datavideo TBC-1000 into an ATI AIW 9200. Other posts on this site suggest capturing to this specific output size setting because it is NTSC standard, and allows for the most flexibility during restoration. However whenever I set the video output size to 720x480 in VirtualDub, everything slows to a crawl. I can capture, but I'm dropping approximately 20% of all captured frames and there are awful audio sync issues. I know that enabling audio preview during capture can result in a similar dropped frame issue, but I have triple checked that audio preview is disabled. For a while I was at a loss, but I thought I might have different results if I changed the video output size. Now that I'm capturing at 640x480 I'm no longer dropping frames and the audio is synchronized.

I fear that If I can't capture in 720x480 I'll run into problems further down the road when it comes time to convert my restored AVI files to mpeg2, and then burn to DVD.
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  #2  
09-19-2018, 09:48 PM
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Did you verify frame rate of 29.97 on the main capture window, lower right, along with correct audio?

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  #3  
09-20-2018, 11:34 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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if settings are correct the system OS seems to be under powered. how much RAM is used on gpu and system ?
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09-20-2018, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Did you verify frame rate of 29.97 on the main capture window, lower right, along with correct audio?
I'll have to double check the frame rate in the capture window after work today. the problem I'm experiencing seems similar to what you were dealing with in this thread. ATI AIW cannot capture with VirtualDub anymore?

I'm keeping the preview setting on overlay, but my entire system slows to a crawl when I set the capture size to anything over 640x480. How did you end up resolving this issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
if settings are correct the system OS seems to be under powered. how much RAM is used on gpu and system ?
Not quite sure what you mean. I'm running Windows XP Professional SP2 on my capture PC. Check this thread for PC specs After rebuilding XP PC, back panel USB PS/2 ports stop working?
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  #5  
09-20-2018, 04:01 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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2GB RAM isn't much these days for windows 10..... it's the minimal specs Microsoft lists, so most of the time you really need more, even more for render work.
With those specs you can't even run Davinci Resolve, Windows XP is still supported with updates ? using XP is also asking for troubles, security wise also.
That's what i hate about microsoft, when they have fixed the bugs in their OS, they launch a new version that also has new bugs, or the old progs. just don't work with the new OS, or some hardware/chipset isn't supported.
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  #6  
09-20-2018, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
2GB RAM isn't much these days for windows 10..... it's the minimal specs Microsoft lists, so most of the time you really need more, even more for render work.
With those specs you can't even run Davinci Resolve, Windows XP is still supported with updates ? using XP is also asking for troubles, security wise also.
That's what i hate about microsoft, when they have fixed the bugs in their OS, they launch a new version that also has new bugs, or the old progs. just don't work with the new OS, or some hardware/chipset isn't supported.
You're missing the point.

Most of the best video capture hardware and software requires Windows XP, as XP was the OS during the peak analog capture years.

Updates to the OS do not matter. Security does not matter. The system should be completely offline, not networked whatsoever. To migrate files, use eSATA.

Capture boxes are not for editing, restoring, etc -- just the capturing.

If anything, Microsoft breaks stuff with each new OS and update, as it relates to anything SD video.

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  #7  
09-20-2018, 04:49 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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So if i now understand correctly, most capture hardware used today is old stuff and isnt upgraded, and people trying to use good capture hardware can't find a good DVR, or VHS VCR, but if a ES35 works fine, a ES10 should also do fine, better video capture devices come also with better software, en more codecs to choose from.
but video capturing isn't an all too populair thing anymore i think.
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  #8  
09-20-2018, 04:50 PM
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Home at last.



I can confirm that frame rate is set to 29.97 fps in the capture window.

Here are examples of how preview fps differs when video output changes between 720x480 and 640x480



720x480: In this screenshot the preview frame rate is at 0 fps, but at times jumps between 1 and 15 fps.



640x480: Now the frame rate is at a rock solid 30 fps, only occasionally jumping between 29 and 31 fps.

Update:

When I set video output to 704x480, the frame rate issue goes away. 704x480 is DVD compliant so should I just carry from there?


Attached Images
File Type: png MainCaptureWindow.png (4.8 KB, 21 downloads)
File Type: jpg 720x480.jpg (39.8 KB, 21 downloads)
File Type: jpg 640x480.jpg (39.2 KB, 21 downloads)

Last edited by JPMedia; 09-20-2018 at 05:13 PM. Reason: Update
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  #9  
09-20-2018, 09:04 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
video capturing isn't an all too popular thing anymore i think.
Doesn't seem that way to me. But video quality overall is lower than it used to be, despite the fact that the best of the capture hardware and software still produces the same results. Low-quality digital sources like Youtube and low-bitrate streaming and slipshod digital projection have lowered standards for most viewers today -- so comments about 'old" equipment is moot anyway because producing (and watching) the best quality isn't in fashion these days despite the fact that the means for achieving it are still around. Of course higher quality does require an effort and some learning. But few want to put up with that these days. There are a lot of people out there who know how to get high quality from many sources, but they're older than they were 15 years ago. I guess they should be relegated to a dump or museum. Not much use for those kinds of skills any more.
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09-21-2018, 02:18 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPMedia View Post
As I have come to realize over the past few months, quality analog video capture is no simple task.
Well, no, it's not exactly simple but it shouldn't be the sturm und angst drama that many people endure. I do understand, however, that sometimes very strange things happen -- or don't happen, as seems to be the case here.

There have been so many explanations for dropped frames repeated so many times in so many threads in multiple forums that by now you'd think it would be as simple as checking down a list of reasons, finding the ones that apply, and just fixing them. Where to start?

Updated system and hardware drivers? Using slow Seagate hard drives with tiny i/o cache sizes? System bottlenecks caused by uncontrolled processes running in the background? Windows update turned on (wouldn't make any sense with XP, would it)? Microsoft Office indexing turned on? Using a 'net browser with internet feeds turned on? How about that super-featured anti-virus "system" that interferes with every damn thing you do? Capturing to the same hard drive that contains the operating system? Using badly fragmented drives? Using your capture drive for video storage of hundreds of old videos instead of using external drives for storage and internal drives for working processes? System slowed by too many USB gadgets? Slow or even defective RAM? Balky graphics card? VirtualDub installed on the OS drive instead of on a separate drive where you capture (where does it say VDub has to be on the C-drive? My VDub has been on my D-drive forever. Never install VDub or Avisynth on the same partition with your OS). VDub capture settings set to drop or insert frames to keep up with audio, or whatnot ? I haven't allowed VDub to control frame or audio sync since 2002. That's your capture hardware's job. Have you had a look at the later capture guide and gone over suggestions for different scenarios and capture cards (Capturing with VirtualDub [Settings Guide])? Have you disabled stuff like capturing to segmented files? Did you try increasing disc i/o cache (see post #5 of that guide).

I'll be the first to confess that one time a few years back I had dropped frames just after the start of every capture but after modifying a few things I mention above it didn't happen again. I've used 5 different XP capture machines over the years. My latest tin and plastic build from spare parts for capture is sometimes a little stuttery at showing preview frames for 720x480 captures but it doesn't drop frames -- but, then, it's a slowpoke 2GHz 2-core AMD with a cheap Biostar board (2 GB RAM is its max) with old-fashioned IDE Western Digital drives on a 2001-era Promise PCI drive controller card and a moderate 64MB AIW AGP capture card with an old HP wide screen monitor. Not too many boxes are slower than that unless you're still using a Pentium III (which I did use with Windows 98 capture and my AGP card until I bought an XP machine - and did it without dropping frames).

A lot of little things can cause capture problems. It's a pain checking them out but I hope the above might lead to a decent fix.
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  #11  
09-21-2018, 02:20 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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The "new" people only buy streaming equipment to set up internet radio, or want to setup a live video stream for a youtube video channel, for gaming or special interest subjects, there is enough hardware or software for that, Not too expensive and open source or freeware software for that too.
and yes Sanlyn, I totally agree with you there, there are many things that can go wrong, and using "an old pc" won't cut it,
Problem also is many devices just disappear, like a cassette deck just to record music or sound, or the turntable, vinyl wasn't that bad in the first place, and was used for a long time, which the cd didn't manage.
I don't think there's a need to store video anymore with video on demand, Bluray didn't really "take off" also, DVD is still very populair, which isn't even FullHD, on all those flatscreens....

Last edited by Eric-Jan; 09-21-2018 at 02:38 AM.
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  #12  
09-21-2018, 02:31 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
The "new" people only buy streaming equipment to set up internet radio, or want to setup a live video stream for a youtube video channel, for gaming or special interest subjects, there is enough hardware or software for that, Not too expensive and open source or freeware software for that too.
That's what I said. Video quality has come a long way down in a very short time. Without a decent level of visual literacy, it will only get worse. What a shame.
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  #13  
09-21-2018, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
A lot of little things can cause capture problems. It's a pain checking them out but I hope the above might lead to a decent fix.
I appreciate your troubleshooting list. One step I would have never thought to do would be running VirtualDub on a drive other than C. Later today I'll go through the list and report back with my findings.
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  #14  
09-21-2018, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPMedia View Post
I appreciate your troubleshooting list. One step I would have never thought to do would be running VirtualDub on a drive other than C.
I don't see what difference that would make.

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09-21-2018, 09:08 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I don't see what difference that would make.
That should be no problem with enough system RAM.
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  #16  
09-21-2018, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
That should be no problem with enough system RAM.
Different drives is never about RAM, but I/O (bandwidth) of the drive, and how the OS/software thrashes it. That's why capturing to a secondary drive is recommended for most systems, to isolate it from any external OS/software activity. But having the software itself on the secondary drive shouldn't matter, as that tiny program is loaded to RAM.

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  #17  
09-21-2018, 10:36 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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With not enough RAM there will be virtual RAM used on the HDD and the HDD will be too slow for that purpose in most cases a SSD will be faster.
Most MacBooks run from SSD storage.
At first uncompressed capture to an external drive was no posssible for me.
You can capture what you want, but if it can't be stored fast enough, your capture will fail, if you can slowdown the data rate by compressing the capture first, that is one solution, but you need a (fast) "buffer"
When you build your own pc you need to figure this out, a fast graphics card is also handy.

Last edited by Eric-Jan; 09-21-2018 at 10:53 AM.
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  #18  
09-21-2018, 11:28 AM
JPMedia JPMedia is online now
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I took Sanlyn's suggested troubleshooting steps and complied them into a checklist. I thought this might be helpful for other users who are new to VirtualDub (myself included).


Attached Files
File Type: docx VDub Troubleshooting Checklist.docx (11.4 KB, 4 downloads)
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  #19  
09-21-2018, 11:59 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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It's a good list, only... have a good working pc, and you don't need this list, but i understand it's most of the time: the (old) capture device isnt compattible with a new system.
But this is a "fight" you have aslo with the other components in a pc, type of memory, graphic card(s), HDD/SSD, chip sets and interfaces to external or internal devices and the throughputt
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09-21-2018, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
It's a good list, only... have a good working pc, and you don't need this list, but i understand it's most of the time: the (old) capture device isnt compattible with a new system.
But this is a "fight" you have aslo with the other components in a pc, type of memory, graphic card(s), HDD/SSD, chip sets and interfaces to external or internal devices and the throughputt
Please read a few posts in these threads before typing away. Your contribution to this thread has been off-topic or otherwise unhelpful.
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