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  #1  
10-14-2018, 04:05 PM
Saporo Saporo is offline
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Hello, i'm new here and i need some help to take the correct path.

My mother died a short time ago. Naturally the pain is immense but along with it come occupations and responsibilities that all who go through the losses will understand perfectly.

I have found some tapes, VHS and VHSc recorded in NTSC standard, SP, LP, SLP speeds. Many of them I filmed myself when I was 14 years old and today I have 46. The tapes are not as bad as I imagined. But some of them were passed from a video camera to a VTR. I still have one of those cameras, (JVC GR-C7U). I also have a VTR with which I copied some tapes but it does not turn on.
I intend to digitize the tapes in some format to be able to restore them.
Unfortunately I am from one of the worst countries in the world to have access to equipment in conditions.
I understand that the ideal way to capture would be:

VTR SVHS (TBC built in)> full frame TBC Sync> WIN PC VDUB with a lossless compression.
I would like to buy an external TBC but what I find available is out of my budget, i have 2 awfull vtr:JVC HR-S3600EN AND PHILIPS VR453.

I use a thnkpad x230 with win 7 ultimate, 1 easy-Crap and also a pinnacle movie box usb 710.
i already read de guides of TBC, VTR of lordsmurf and many post like mine but i'm stuck. i can't find any thing of the recomended hardware in my country and if i want to import it, it's 50% more in taxes.

For all that i guess i must to use a miniDV deck or cam to passthrough de VHS signal to DV. i understand that Dv gonna discard some analog info when converts to DV because it's a compressed format.
(if i try to capture direct to vdub with any lossless codec.. the result it audio out of sync).
I can't find a way to not get audio out of sync without go lossy formats.
I want to know if dv is the right way to go when the you can't have a tbc of a vtr with tbc built in.

i forget to say that I have about 16 vhs and about 9 vhs type c.
Please letme know the best path to go (taking into acount my silly hardware).
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  #2  
10-15-2018, 02:34 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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First sorry for your loss.

I don't think you need an external TBC AKA full frame TBC unless you have some bad tapes, Besides you wouldn't find good ones anyway, the clones available don't make any improvement and sometimes worsen the picture. I have one I can sell it to you but I wouldn't recommend it.

Pinnacle USB-710 is a good capture device along with virtualdub it should get you lossless video to your computer, just don't use the software supplied with it, However you may have to install it or any Pinnacle video software (trial ones are ok) just to get a free driver for newer operating systems.

What you may need is a S-VHS machine with built in line TBC, Your tapes can wait little longer to save up for one as they are little bit expensive, and be prepared for possible repairs, they don't make new ones anymore.

As for DV stay away from it, You will need to convert to MPEG2 or MP4 so may as well do it from a lossless file, and keep those lossless files as masters.
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  #3  
10-15-2018, 08:26 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Sorry to hear about your mom. Just lost my dad so I have an idea how you feel.

What country are you in? I don't recognize the entry Bs.As.

The HR-S3600EN should be a S-VHS unit, but without the TBC of the higher models. However you may find recordings in good condition will play OK in it.

Quality used gear can usually be resold after use. But all that can be problematic depending on where you are located and local market conditions.

In the end it all depends on how much restoration the video needs to reach your personal goal for acceptable quality.
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  #4  
10-15-2018, 12:47 PM
Saporo Saporo is offline
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Thank you latreche34 and dpalomaki the words. (depalomaki, I would prefer that you did not have that kind of experience)

Regarding to the hardware.. yes... It would be great to have a svhs with tbc, but i'm from Argentina. (Bs.As. = Buenos Aires )
Here any imported product have a 50% in taxes. Here it's difficult to find high end products. Argentina, Brasil and Paraguay have the bizarre PAL-N. The common case for a brodcast producer is to buy a PAL-B equipment and convert the signal to PAL-N. In the consumer segment VTRs were imported in NTSC and After the purchase the client should take the tvr to an audio/video place to install the NTSC>PAL-N converter.

When i played the tapes no the philips vtr for about 45 minutes capturin via RCA>pinnacle usb 710 usb> pc vdub using Huffyuv or Lagarith i always have droped frames and audio out of sync. It's a way to capture in sync without tbc?
thank you for the support.


I want to store the master in lossless to a hdd drive and also in MP4 for viewing and share.
The s-vhs has a worst reproducion (same tape) than que philips, but the JVC is almost new. I can't imagine than the heads are in bad conditions.
.
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  #5  
10-15-2018, 04:42 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Would the VHS tapes be PAL or NTSC with that setup? The main difference between the Pal systems (outside of PAL-M) is what frequency the colour was broadcast at, but when stored on a VHS tape, the signal would be the same as the colour signal would be modulated to the same frequency.

Anyhow, a cheaper alternative to a full-frame TBC is to send the signal through a DVD-recorder and record from the output, as they tend to be much better at tolerating bad signals and can give the capture card a stable signal to capture from. The Panasonic DMR-ES10 or 15 seems to be a favourite around here, and I've listed some other ones I've tested in this thread.

As for the JVC S-VHS, try changing the picture control setting to EDIT, or if there is an EDIT setting in the menu, turn it on. The JVC S-VHS machines tend to smooth and blur the image a bit much with the default settings.
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  #6  
10-15-2018, 05:13 PM
Saporo Saporo is offline
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Hi Hodgey, all the tapes were recorded on 2 NTSC cameras, VHS on a Panasonic cam. but I do not remember the model.
VHS-c tapes with a JVC GR-C7U (today in working conditions). I guess it's better to use the camera for those tapes and not use a vhs adapter. I tried a passthrough from the vcr signal to a dvdr to the pc... but the resulting image was horrible. (The dvdr brand is very bad)
surely with one like you are mentioning the things can change. that can be a solution for the AV out of sync also?
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  #7  
10-15-2018, 06:23 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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I know the Panasonic ES10/15 models work, as a number of people here use them (though they do have a slight negative effect on image quality as they cause some posterization.)
The ones I listed in the other threads work for the PAL models at least for reducing horizontal jitter to varying degrees and maintaining a steady output and audio sync (except possibly the old Sony, haven't really tested it much.) I can't say for sure when it comes to NTSC versions though. What brand was the one you tried? DVDRs often have mediocre noise-reduction turned on by default, so you could look whether tinkering with settings could help.

The VHS-C tapes will probably look better in a VCR with an adapter, especially since the camera only has composite output. I've heard stories about JVC machines eating VHS-C tapes though, I'll let others chime in on whether you should avoid it on your JVC.
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  #8  
10-15-2018, 07:07 PM
Saporo Saporo is offline
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Yes, i try to find some models of dvdr like that. The Dvdr tested was a (noubody knows) X-Tech- model BS-1018DR . This dvdr has no advanced setups. I also try to repair a PHILIPS dvdr 3455h hdd&dvd player with some guides out there but i can't make it work. The idea was to use it like a passthrough and see what's happend.

I saw the lordsmurf guide with great information, but only some models are recommended and where I live ...I do not see them available. Some othes list to watch ?
What about panasonic DMR ez17 / eh58/ or e50 ?

Last edited by Saporo; 10-15-2018 at 07:23 PM. Reason: add a question
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  #9  
10-16-2018, 10:55 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Someone over at videohelp seems to have used the DMR EH58 successfully, so that one will probably work.

A forum user here reported that the E50 (not to be confused with the EH-50 also works, though not very effective on jitter. LordSmurf doesn't seem to be a fan of that specific model.

No idea about the EZ17.
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  #10  
10-16-2018, 11:17 AM
Saporo Saporo is offline
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thank's hodgey. I keep searching and making a wish list. I saw in that site a recomendation for a philips dvdr 3575h
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...ll-DVD-burners
I have the 3455h but the HDD died some time ago. I tried to repair it but I could not, I wanted to know if it's worth it ... considering if it would serve as a passthrough.
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  #11  
10-16-2018, 12:32 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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I guess it depends on how much work it would be, whether it would be cheaper to fix it or to get a different model. Looks like you're not the only person with HDD issues. Does it refuse to start up without the working HDD?

I don't know much about the philips models, but it may very well work. Only one I've personally tried is a really old one I recently got a hold of for free (DVDR70). Turns out it has almost the same video decoder chip (SAA7118) as the AVT8710 TBC (SAA7114), difference being the -18 has some extra inputs and a "low-noise" ADC whatever that means. It seemed to act similar to the AVT as well, outside of not removing macrovision, though it's not great at reducing horizontal jitter like some of the newer DVRs. I presume the 3455h would have a newer and better video decoder.
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10-16-2018, 12:55 PM
Saporo Saporo is offline
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I have seen the link before and I tried to follow the steps without success.
THE original HDD is not working. I had to change it for another one. I have burned the CD with NERO as a data disc but the dvdr is not showing anything different from read the cd and after a few secconds eject it . The soft they recommend is swissknife but is not compatible,(win 7 64 Bit).
i take your comments about the chips like very good news, i'm gonna try again with this dvdr.
I do not want to expand the information about the dvdr because I understand that it should not distort the meaning this thread
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  #13  
10-17-2018, 10:12 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
I know the Panasonic ES10/15 models work, as a number of people here use them (though they do have a slight negative effect on image quality as they cause some posterization.)
In actual use, reports of the effect sound worse than it really is. To reduce the effect even more, turn off the Pannie's noise reduction -- it's not that great anyway, and I believe PAL versions don't have dnr. Due to the high noise levels and low resolution of VHS, almost any strong post-capture denoising will leave some level of posterizing effects. There are plenty of techniques and filters in Avisynth to counter or mask the problem, including AddGrainC (very fine film grain, prevents the "plastic" look), GradFun2DBmod, and dithering filters). Hundreds of examples have been posted and described in the restoration forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
The ones I listed in the other threads work for the PAL models at least for reducing horizontal jitter to varying degrees and maintaining a steady output and audio sync (except possibly the old Sony, haven't really tested it much.) I can't say for sure when it comes to NTSC versions though. What brand was the one you tried? DVDRs often have mediocre noise-reduction turned on by default, so you could look whether tinkering with settings could help.
It's possible to use other models, but the ES10/ES15 have proven to be the most powerful and effective. Some models are so weak they're a waste of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
I've heard stories about JVC machines eating VHS-C tapes though, I'll let others chime in on whether you should avoid it on your JVC.
Those stories are true. Panasonics are recommended for VHS-C adapters.
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  #14  
10-17-2018, 11:16 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
It's possible to use other models, but the ES10/ES15 have proven to be the most powerful and effective. Some models are so weak they're a waste of time.
Yeah, it's going to depend on what you want out of them, and there are often drawbacks. I'm planning to make a video demonstration of how a bunch of the devices and capture cards I have access to react to some bad tape sections once I have the time.
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  #15  
10-17-2018, 01:00 PM
Saporo Saporo is offline
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if someone here is selling a ES10 in a good working condition, or any other recomended model please contact me.
Also for a panasonic vcr ag1980. The images looks fine played in a philips simple vr453/57 for now ( i saw a 30% of the tapes). The most noticieable problem is some droped frames and Audio out of sync, some gain/noice.
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  #16  
10-17-2018, 01:59 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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I have an ES10/15 available. But these only do NTSC, as do the AG-1980. I'm always willing to ship to Argentine, and sort of the shipping info with you. We can do that in a PM if you want.

But, my main question is this: Is that what you need here?

I've been reading along with the thread, and all replies, just not had time to reply myself yet. Did we suddenly switch from PAL to NTSC, and I missed it?

If you need PAL, and I thought you did, then I can assist you with acquiring one of those, at least for the ES10/15. I'm aware of how not-easy is is to import gear to South America, with seller unwillingness being a major obstacle (something I deal with from Germany to USA). For the VCR, you'll need to seek a PAL model.

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  #17  
10-17-2018, 02:17 PM
Saporo Saporo is offline
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Hi lordsmurf, I'm thankful to receive your advice. I guess you think the project is pal due to my geographical area, but no. they are tapes that my family and I recorded with vhs and vhs-c cameras in ntsc norm. machines bought in usa.
Please contact me PM. Thank’s
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  #18  
10-18-2018, 12:36 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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I have the JVC HR-7600AM and I never had a problem with a cassette adapter, If the problem happens with a cassette adapter and not with full size cassette chances are something wrong with it or it's cheap crap, The adapter should behave exactly as a full size cassette if it's well made, The JVC metal body battery operated adapters are among the best I've seen so far.
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10-18-2018, 02:04 PM
Saporo Saporo is offline
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i have a panasonic pack adapter... some time ago playing on my JVC svhs.. I suddenly heard fried sounds while watching.. a tape that was playing well and image looks nice. I did not react immediately, but minutes later I stopped the tape and could see that it was damaged on the bottom-edge. I came to the conclusion that the damage occurred after the moment in which the heads do the reading because the image was good. Then I did some tests with mixed results. I suspect that for some reason the tape go down and touch the bootom angle betwwen the tube-wheel and the plastic-angle in the adapter. (only with some cassettes of 120 minutes). They are heavy and only in those I had problems. Even depending on how advanced the tape is, the VCR does some strength and is transferred to the adapter.
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  #20  
10-26-2018, 12:52 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Long post, lots of replying...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saporo View Post
My mother died a short time ago. Naturally the pain is immense but along with it come occupations and responsibilities that all who go through the losses will understand perfectly
My condolences.

Quote:
I have found some tapes, VHS and VHSc recorded in NTSC standard, SP, LP, SLP speeds. Many of them I filmed myself when I was 14 years old and today I have 46. The tapes are not as bad as I imagined. But some of them were passed from a video camera to a VTR. I still have one of those cameras, (JVC GR-C7U). I also have a VTR with which I copied some tapes but it does not turn on.
I intend to digitize the tapes in some format to be able to restore them.
Lots of tapes there.

The failed VTR is probably not a loss.

I'd be wary of using the VHS-C cameras, those were never great at playback. Many just ate the tapes when not recording. The VHS adapter is likely more valuable here. The C-P6U types are especially good. Panasonic and JVC has several models

Quote:
I understand that the ideal way to capture would be:
VTR SVHS (TBC built in)> full frame TBC Sync> WIN PC VDUB with a lossless compression.
I would like to buy an external TBC but what I find available is out of my budget, i have 2 awfull vtr:JVC HR-S3600EN AND PHILIPS VR453.
ideal minimum = SVHS VCR with line TBC + external TBC + good capture card
workable minimum = good VCR + external TBC(ish) + good capture card

Quote:
I use a thnkpad x230 with win 7 ultimate, 1 easy-Crap and also a pinnacle movie box usb 710.
i already read de guides of TBC, VTR of lordsmurf and many post like mine but i'm stuck. i can't find any thing of the recomended hardware in my country and if i want to import it, it's 50% more in taxes.
Computer probably fine.
Easycrap card = lowers the quality, don't use it
Pinnacle 710-USB is a nice card, use that.

Quote:
For all that i guess i must to use a miniDV deck or cam to passthrough de VHS signal to DV. i understand that Dv gonna discard some analog info when converts to DV because it's a compressed format.
(if i try to capture direct to vdub with any lossless codec.. the result it audio out of sync).
I can't find a way to not get audio out of sync without go lossy formats.
I want to know if dv is the right way to go when the you can't have a tbc of a vtr with tbc built in.
DV never suggested. Doable, but not suggested due to color loss.
The VirtualDub sync issues are most likely related to the setup. For example, the most common mistake is enabling audio playback during capture (however, I'd note the 710-USB is a rare card where preview should work).

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
I don't think you need an external TBC AKA full frame TBC unless you have some bad tapes,
All VHS needs timebase correction. Line TBCs correct visual instabilities, while external correct signal issues. For example, loss of sync is very often a problem caused by dropped frames, which can be fully corrected by an external framesync (including both true TBC and TBC'ish like ES10/15). Most VHS capture issues are corrected simply by using the proper conversion equipment, and TBC is at the top of that list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
Just lost my dad so I have an idea how you feel.
My condolences to you as well.

Quote:
The HR-S3600EN should be a S-VHS unit, but without the TBC of the higher models. However you may find recordings in good condition will play OK in it.
Is the EN model NTSC? If so...
Should, could, yes -- but his tapes are seemingly rejecting it. Or at very least, that exact unit, which may be severely out of spec. There are way to realigning with a screwdriver, or a custom Dremel'd screwdriver, but it still may not help. A sample of the bad capture would be required to see the issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saporo View Post
I want to store the master in lossless to a hdd drive and also in MP4 for viewing and share.
The s-vhs has a worst reproducion (same tape) than que philips, but the JVC is almost new. I can't imagine than the heads are in bad conditions.
Good archive plan, lossless+MP4(H264) for viewing.
VCR issues are almost never heads. That is a pet peeve of mine. I hate the knee-jerk reaction of "clean the heads!", as it is needless and often destructive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
The Panasonic DMR-ES10 or 15 seems to be a favourite around here,
The main reason for this is they're strong even on the worst signals. The corrective abilities can often outperform external framesync TBCs, though with artifact side effects. I often hear "this model is also good" (NTSC models), but after acquiring it for my own testing, it fails miserably. I have some fun test tapes that I throw at hardware, and I can always choke it. But what matters is the choke point.

Quote:
As for the JVC S-VHS, try changing the picture control setting to EDIT, or if there is an EDIT setting in the menu, turn it on. The JVC S-VHS machines tend to smooth and blur the image a bit much with the default settings.
This entirely depends on several variables, namely the tape, deck model, and deck condition. JVC S-VHS is not inherently soft, and I frequently see tapes that are sharper on a JVC (with or without AUTO/NORM disabled as EDIT) as compared to other non-JVCs, including Panasonics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saporo View Post
I guess it's better to use the camera for those tapes and not use a vhs adapter.
This is usually NOT the case. The idea that "the tape looks best on the original camera/VCR" is pure video myth. Sometimes, if the camera was faulty, it is required. But only in that case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
The ones I listed in the other threads work for the PAL models at least for reducing horizontal jitter to varying degrees and maintaining a steady output and audio sync (except possibly the old Sony, haven't really tested it much.) I can't say for sure when it comes to NTSC versions though.
Always nice to have the PAL perspective here on hardware.

Quote:
I've heard stories about JVC machines eating VHS-C tapes though, I'll let others chime in on whether you should avoid it on your JVC.
Yes, JVC can be a tape eater, especially if the deck is not in cherry condition, and you're not using the good metal CP6U-type adapters. Those plastic POS, or failing deck motors/gears, causes it too easily. JVC doesn't have failsafes that halt the equipment on errors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Someone over at videohelp seems to have used the DMR EH58 successfully, so that one will probably work.
Don't assume it's good advice. For example, in that same thread, the ES25 is claimed to be "like the ES15". But it's so weak as to be useless on all but test patterns and retail tapes. The ES25 is nothing like the ES15. (And I respect that member posting about the ES25, but his testing methods are apparently not harsh enough to test TBC performance.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saporo View Post
thank's hodgey. I keep searching and making a wish list. I saw in that site a recomendation for a philips dvdr 3575h
That's a great recording for 16x9 HD input, but lousy for many other things. No passthrough. And it respects anti-copy protection flags from SOB cable carriers. There are better recorders for non-16x9 use, namely Zoran-based RCA for off-air, or JVC LIS for tape, or ES10/15 for passthrough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Turns out it has almost the same video decoder chip (SAA7118) as the AVT8710 TBC (SAA7114),
As I often mention, chipset alone doesn't make the device. For example, the LSI chipset was excellent, but used wrong by Panasonic, not-ideal by LiteOn. The same issue exists for some USB capture card chipsets using the eMPIA bridges.

Quote:
I presume the 3455h would have a newer and better video decoder.
With some of the lower-quality companies, like Philips, never presume/assume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saporo View Post
I have seen the link before and I tried to follow the steps without success.
THE original HDD is not working. I had to change it for another one. I have burned the CD with NERO as a data disc but the dvdr is not showing anything different from read the cd and after a few secconds eject it . The soft they recommend is swissknife but is not compatible,(win 7 64 Bit).
i take your comments about the chips like very good news, i'm gonna try again with this dvdr.
I do not want to expand the information about the dvdr because I understand that it should not distort the meaning this thread
Yes, new thread on new topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
In actual use, reports of the effect sound worse than it really is. To reduce the effect even more, turn off the Pannie's noise reduction -- it's not that great anyway, and I believe PAL versions don't have dnr.
I have a PAL ES10, recent acquisition from UK, need to check it.

Quote:
Due to the high noise levels and low resolution of VHS, almost any strong post-capture denoising will leave some level of posterizing effects. There are plenty of techniques and filters in Avisynth to counter or mask the problem, including AddGrainC (very fine film grain, prevents the "plastic" look), GradFun2DBmod, and dithering filters). Hundreds of examples have been posted and described in the restoration forum.
All true. And I have my own "hide NR" script in Avisynth. But ideally best to just avoid it altogether. Clean vs. detail is a delicate balance, as you well know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Yeah, it's going to depend on what you want out of them, and there are often drawbacks. I'm planning to make a video demonstration of how a bunch of the devices and capture cards I have access to react to some bad tape sections once I have the time.
I look forward to seeing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saporo View Post
i have a panasonic pack adapter... some time ago playing on my JVC svhs.. I suddenly heard fried sounds while watching.. a tape that was playing well and image looks nice. I did not react immediately, but minutes later I stopped the tape and could see that it was damaged on the bottom-edge..
This is probably the error technically known as "feathering". Not fun.

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