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  #1  
10-17-2018, 12:24 PM
Fr4gz0n3 Fr4gz0n3 is offline
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I hope I'm not in a wrong section.

This morning at a local thrift shop I saw this beauty for just 44 euros and I had to buy it immediately.

I was hoping (not that much) that it can have no issue and surprisingly it seems to work like a charme.

It's the first time I use a VCR like this so I have few questions:

- Do you know what kind of TBC it has onboard? (line, field, frame)
- I guess image quality shoud be better than my JVC HR-S7700. Is it right?
- Can you suggest me something specific to check?

Thank you everybody (pics coming soon)
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  #2  
10-17-2018, 05:21 PM
Fr4gz0n3 Fr4gz0n3 is offline
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I've done some tests (using my crappy pinnacle card) and it's hard to say if the image is better or worse than the JVC, it's simply different: richer (colour), smoother and more 'solid' on the JVC, more detailed, a bit noisier and pale on the Panasonic.

I've cleaned all the guides with isopropyl alcohol (erase head was quite dirty) and tomorrow I will clean also the drum heads to see if I can reduce the noise.

The tape loading mechanism works fine and all seems to be in good condition (no bad caps symptoms at the moment).

I have to admit that both VCRs have very stable image (also without TBC) with good VHS and that JVC TBC+DNR seems more aggressive and noticeable then the Panasonic one.

I have few VHS-C to capture with a JVC metal adapter (repaired because of a battery acid damage) and AFAIK panasonic transport mechanism should handle the tape better, isn't it true?

It also seems that TBC is not working on passthrough. Do I have to set something?
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  #3  
10-17-2018, 07:16 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Congrats, that's a really nice find!

The AG4700 seems to be very similar to the NV-HS1000 other than being grey instead of black, though there could be other differences.

If it's similar to the NV-HS1000: Don't think it has any sort of noise reduction filter (unlike your JVC). There is an "AI" function that's basically an automatic sharpness adjuster, something I've turned off on our NV-HS1000 as it tends to oversharpen the image. If it's set to off you can adjust sharpness manually. It's very good at picking up detail, though the image is also more noisy than the JVC as you mentioned.

Don't think the TBC works on passthrough. Barely any VCRs have a TBC that works on passthrough as far as I know, outside of possibly some broadcast decks (Only one I know of is the betacam deck we got.) and the TBCish functions in some of the late model VHS/DVD-recorder combos. I think the Y/C filter is active though, at least on the NV-HS1000.
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  #4  
10-17-2018, 08:47 PM
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Wow, I wish I could find one of those for that price!

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  #5  
10-18-2018, 04:32 AM
Fr4gz0n3 Fr4gz0n3 is offline
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Here some pics after a good cleaning:
2018-10-18_09-10-37_247.jpeg
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I cleaned the heads that were quite dirty and I removed the automatic head cleaner that was almost black
2018-10-18_09-12-12_921.jpeg
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The bad news is that this unit maybe suffers of the "cold start noise" reported by others also in this forum (strong noise for the first minute or two) that means dying caps. I've said "maybe" because (at the moment) this happens only if I remove and plug again the power cord

Update: I've called the official Panasonic repair shop in my town and they can do the full recap for about 120 euro. I don't know what to do. The picture seems fine now so I can do my captures hoping it will last enough, but those caps are clocking bombs... I could also repair it myself but I don't know if I will ever have the time to do so and maybe it's a task bigger than me.



Last edited by Fr4gz0n3; 10-18-2018 at 05:07 AM.
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  #6  
10-18-2018, 06:38 AM
Quasipal Quasipal is offline
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Good find!

I have never had capacitors go bad in this model, there are no surface mount types used. In fact the only issues I have had are worn video heads which make for more picture noise as they wear. Also the pinch roller can suffer with a worn bearing which makes for wobbly linear sound.

I would clean it, throw out the head cleaning roller and replace the pinch roller if you have one. Make sure it is genuine Panasonic spare part, cheap ones often skew the tape.
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  #7  
10-18-2018, 09:09 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Yes,

the Panasonic AG4700 is the pro version of the consumer SVHS deck Panasonic HS-1000.

I have only the HS-1000. He has the sharpest picture (but more grain) I have seen from any other SVHS recorder.
The TBC is a line TBC. An old movie magazin says a 6 line TBC. But during capture the TBC produces errors. All in all the tbc isn't useful for capturing. During the capture process yo should turn off AI and the editing control button should be on "passive" (passive= edit mode). The recorder has no noise reduction.
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  #8  
10-18-2018, 10:29 AM
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If you say the TBC has no effect, and to disable all the NR, then what's the point of having the deck?
That doesn't sound right.

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  #9  
10-18-2018, 10:48 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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The TBC works quite well on the NV-HS1000 we got here at least, and doesn't have the vertical jump/jitter issues that the JVC deck ones do. I very much disagree that it doesn't work for capturing, haven't noticed it producing any errors outside of extremely bad tape sections where half the screen is noise anyway. The deck does however seem very sensitive to smudge and other stuff from tapes and clogs easily, and it doesn't seem to have much compensation for tape dropouts like most newer VCRs do.

The EDIT switch is to change how the VCR reacts to edit commands from the edit cable, other than disabling the OSD if it's turned on, it won't really matter for capturing.

Oh and maybe it's just the one we got, but it likes to use a lot of force when ejecting VHS-C adapter, so make sure you hold your hand in front of the VCR and catch it when ejecting, otherwise it may end up on the floor.
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  #10  
10-18-2018, 01:51 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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On german videoforum have a few different members reportet that when the TBC is turned on the picture sometimes jump to the left and to the right (one of them was the user goldwingfahrer who was a professional). I have seen the same effect on my captures with the HS1000.

You should use the "passive/edit" mode because it turns the VHS HQ image enhancers like the chroma line averaging and the lowpass off. You can improve the capture later with better results with avisynth/Virtual Dub.

The AI improve the picture for playback and to watch it on television. But for capturing it's better to turn AI off.
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  #11  
10-18-2018, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
You can improve the capture later with better results with avisynth/Virtual Dub.
Not all errors can be fixed in software (at all), or as good as hardware when it is possible.
Others are the same either way.
Some software filters are better than hardware filters.

It really depends on the error.

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  #12  
10-19-2018, 04:03 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Not all errors can be fixed in software (at all), or as good as hardware when it is possible.
Others are the same either way.
Some software filters are better than hardware filters.

It really depends on the error.

If we talking about jitter correction you're right. But if you want a SVHS Player with a good Line-TBC the Panasonic AG4700 (Panasonic HS1000) is the wrong SVHS deck.
Detail which is lost before you have capture it, will be lost forever (Edit mode on/off).

If you search for a SVHS recorder just to watch your SVHS/VHS movies then the Panasonic AG/HS is one of the best, but not for capturing.
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  #13  
10-19-2018, 04:15 AM
Fr4gz0n3 Fr4gz0n3 is offline
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Thank you for the answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasipal View Post
... Also the pinch roller can suffer with a worn bearing which makes for wobbly linear sound...
The pinch roller seems to be in quite good condition, no cracks on the surface, the rubber is not too shiny and it has a good grip. I've just put some grease on the pinch roller sliding pivot. I've also looked for issues on the linear audio track and it sounds great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
...You should use the "passive/edit" mode because it turns the VHS HQ image enhancers like the chroma line averaging and the lowpass off. You can improve the capture later with better results with avisynth/Virtual Dub...
I can't see any difference between "player", "recorder" and "passive" except for the colors that looks much better in "passive" mode: good saturation (not oversaturated) instead of the pale looking of the other two modes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
...All in all the tbc isn't useful for capturing...
Without an external TBC, I think it's better to me to turn it on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
...Oh and maybe it's just the one we got, but it likes to use a lot of force when ejecting VHS-C adapter, so make sure you hold your hand in front of the VCR and catch it when ejecting, otherwise it may end up on the floor...
Good to know

I've made small captures for testing purpose and I'm surprised of having neither drop frames nor audio sync issues. Soon I will see the behavior with loanger captures.

One more thing: do you think it's safe to put the JVC on the Panasonic?

Last edited by Fr4gz0n3; 10-19-2018 at 05:05 AM.
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  #14  
10-19-2018, 08:13 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post

You should use the "passive/edit" mode because it turns the VHS HQ image enhancers like the chroma line averaging and the lowpass off. .
Apparently I didn't read the manual properly, you're right, setting it to "passive" means "The picture quality best suited for editing is selected" (whatever that means) in addition to disabling the osd and other stuff. The service manual also explains that AI may do a bit more than just adjusting sharpness.
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  #15  
10-19-2018, 09:26 AM
Fr4gz0n3 Fr4gz0n3 is offline
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JVC HR-7700 (TBC) vs PANASONIC AG-4700 (TBC/Player) vs PANASONIC AG-4700 (TBC/Passive)

Here some screenshots to compare (captured using Pinnacle 300i while waiting for a AIW 9600):

S7700_TBC_1.PNG
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AG4700_TBC_player_1.PNG


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On my Eizo the Passive mode seems to have also bit of edge enhancement and a slightly better dynamic range (see white building against the sky) or maybe i'm just a placebo effect.

Update: sharpness slider on the Panasonic is positioned in the middle



Last edited by Fr4gz0n3; 10-19-2018 at 09:52 AM.
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  #16  
10-19-2018, 09:41 AM
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Analysis of above sample images:

That exact Pinnacle card is somewhat muddy from what I've seen, so ATI AIW captures will be needed to see truer quality. However, going from what you have posted, and just keeping muddiness in mind...

The JVC is likely true to the tape. It almost always is for the S-VHS decks of late 90s / early 2000s (aka modern) lineage.

Panasonic does tend to have higher contrast, and it's not always a good thing. Proc amp, of course, can adjust either VCR to achieve better levels -- usually. Sometimes the Panasonic runs afoul of base IRE/luma/gamma, and screws up the image. Not often, but happens.

The image you've attached is severely reduced color quality. It could be caps, heads, or just typical Panasonic. Hard to say. The image requires either proc amp or software adjustment in post-capture. Some may consider the Panasonic "sharper" here, but they'd be very wrong. You can quite easily see the sharpening noise in the sky and right-half tree line. The edge haloing is very obvious on the man, and it creates likely-uncorrectable chroma offset; minor but present.

The colors are boosted on the bottom image (of 3), and otherwise appears unchanged from the 2nd image.

This is why I prefer JVC, and constantly say it is cleaner. It is. It's not "softer", but simply lacks the artifical sharpeness of a Panasonic. On the AG-1980, you can adjust the sharpness right/less, and undo the artificialness. Even without sharpening, the Panasonic is just noisier.

The DR (dynamic range) between the JVC and Panasonic isn't changed. VHS doesn't have much DR at all anyway. What you're seeing here is placeo effect as caused by the noise created from sharpening. Most people see "detail" where none actually exists, but it you're looking for the posterization caused by lower DR, it's just being hidden. (If you want to see severe DR loss, posterization, check out the ES10/15 units, even with NR turned off. Very stark and obvious.)

Eizo, DR ... you know photo, don't you? And at a serious level.
Nice monitors, but pricey.

The main reason to use a Panasonic is the transport, the tracking quality, not the image quality.

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  #17  
10-19-2018, 10:22 AM
Fr4gz0n3 Fr4gz0n3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
...That exact Pinnacle card is somewhat muddy from what I've seen...
The 9600 is still in California... It will be a long way to Italy... I can't wait

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
...The image you've attached is severely reduced color quality. It could be caps, heads, or just typical Panasonic. Hard to say...
Maybe someone can clarify this thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
...Eizo, DR ... you know photo, don't you? And at a serious level.
Nice monitors, but pricey.
Not too serious. Photograpy and video editing it's just an hobby for me. My EIZO is a good narrow gamut IPS monitor, it doesn't belong to beast of the EIZO CS series, those are very pricey.
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10-19-2018, 11:57 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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As I said once before "passive/edit" mode turns the VHS HQ image enhancers like the chroma line averaging and the lowpass off. On passive mode the sharpness slider has no function.

The 3rd picture is the raw picture as it is on the tape.

The player/recorder mode use the VHS HQ image enhancers like every SVHS/VHS deck has since 1985 and with the sharpness slider you can blur or sharp the image. But if you set the sharpness slider to strong your image will have halos.

If I look at the picture with the man I see more detail on his beard from the panasonic capture. The JVC capture looks blur. But this discussion you can find on many video forums which one is better. Some prefer the JVC and other people Panasonic recorder or any other brand.

You should capture the same small part with every recorder. Put the files on the timeline in your editing software have a look at the waveform and vectorscope and compare them on a calibrated studio monitor. Now you'll see the difference which one is better.

Last edited by Bogilein; 10-19-2018 at 12:09 PM.
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  #19  
10-19-2018, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
The 3rd picture is the raw picture as it is on the tape.
It can't be raw. The false sharpen halos give it away. You cannot easily "unhalo" an image to arrive at the JVC image. Panasonic is known to process an image, even with everything "turned off", as is the case on the ES10/15 recorders, and apparently this unit as well.

At very most, if it is supposed to be a raw "as recorded on tape" image, then the noise and artifacts in the image must be from a fault somewhere.

Panasonic gear is extremely good at what it does, reason I have so much of it, but don't tell yourself that it's somehow better/truer to what JVC gear products. It's not. It can be bad, it can be good, it can be neither. But above all, it's just different. JVC and Panasonic are also not the only two companies that differ in their approach to playback and processing.

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  #20  
10-19-2018, 02:42 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
It can't be raw. The false sharpen halos give it away. You cannot easily "unhalo" an image to arrive at the JVC image. Panasonic is known to process an image, even with everything "turned off", as is the case on the ES10/15 recorders, and apparently this unit as well.

At very most, if it is supposed to be a raw "as recorded on tape" image, then the noise and artifacts in the image must be from a fault somewhere.

Panasonic gear is extremely good at what it does, reason I have so much of it, but don't tell yourself that it's somehow better/truer to what JVC gear products. It's not. It can be bad, it can be good, it can be neither. But above all, it's just different. JVC and Panasonic are also not the only two companies that differ in their approach to playback and processing.

I just have watched my testfiles from all my recorders which I have made and compared the Panasonic against my JVC HR7600. The Panasonic push the luminance range (contrast) and the chroma. The JVC push the chroma too (but not as strong as the Panasonic) and the luminance range is between 16-235. The panasonic is between 0-255. That's why the panasonic looks more sharper. If I use a YUV curve for the panasonic the test files looks more similar.

Yes there are more companies out there with good SVHS recorders. Philips,LG,Grundig,Hitachi,Nordmende,Blaupunkt,Ori on....
But often inside is a JVC,Panasonic clone.
My favourite I had said this before is the Hitachi 390. It doesn't increase the chroma and after the use of the YUV curve the picture is still sharper as from the JVC 7600 or from the JVC 4700 I have, too.

But we shouldn't forget one thing, that not every recorder plays every tape well. It's better to have some different recorders, capture small test files and then compare them.

For myself I can say I don't use the HS1000 very often to capture something I would only use the recorder to watch movies on televison.
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