CVBS capturing, VHS digitalization, best capture card? - Page 2

Olivier Talouarn · #21 11-25-2018, 11:22 PM

Quote:

"component is an HD carrier, not SD, and then you're back at the problem of HD cards handling SD quite poorly"

Not at all. Any new or older Blackmagic or AJA can input composite, Y/C and composante YUV, in HD AND SD ...
Aja is good at upscaling, Blacmagick ... never do this , totally blurry.
But the goal is to digitalise, with a solid codec (no inter frame) any other work is to be done after.

lordsmurf · #22 11-25-2018, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olivier Talouarn

Not at all. Any new or older Blackmagiv or AJA can input composite, Y/C and composante YUV, in HD AND SD ...

You misunderstand.

The Blackmagic is an HD card with the "feature" of backwards-compatible for SD (analog or digital). But the limiter is getting VHS output across component, which no VCR has. It must be processed (either in a combo, or passthrough'd to another unit), and essentially captured before it's captured. Whatever leaves the DVD recorder is burned in forever, no more analog corrections can be done (aside from color with proc amp). It seems Bogilein has found a Panasonic that will output component retained as SD, but most DVD recorders/players exclusively pass HD on component connections, as they would on HDMI. And you must still pay attention to interlacing, as some apparently force deinterlace.

I think one of the glaring differences here in what PAL vs. NTSC recorders do. NTSC was forced HD, while PAL was just digital. So I'm not sure what the NTSC counterpart of his PAL setup will do. It's something I want to look into, given time/funds next year. For me, HDCP is an added concern, SD capturing with HD hardware serves no purpose. But HD hardware dual capable of SD+HD, without any flaws, would be nice to have.

hodgey · #23 11-26-2018, 06:43 AM

It seems to be normal for PAL DVD recorders to be able to output SD/576i over component, or least on the ones I tested it on. I briefly tested it on my Sony RDR-HX750, but the blackmagic card gave me crackling noise every few seconds so I gave up on using it for anything analog. I doubt there would be any image quality advantage of using component over S-Video for 576i though (unless you're dealing with betacam), component is mainly for higher res and progressive scan video. I suppose one nicety is that the RCA connector is a bit less prone to breakage than the S-Video one with it's tiny pins.

Olivier Talouarn · #24 11-26-2018, 08:51 AM

backwards-compatible for SD. ??? what does that mean ? I m using this kind of cards since ... a long time, as a pro vidéo editor. They do Sd work flow or hd workflow flawessly. They had to do both, in the mixed environment of years 2000. And if using a VHS with a digital TBC,which output YC, its very clean. Less cross color. Honey, your Blackmagic is broken, And no component is not for progressive or hi res; as you say first ,it s for betacam; "and essentially captured before it's captured." Well .. digital TBC in VHS are a kind of capture ...

lordsmurf · #25 11-26-2018, 09:08 AM

BetacamSP is a pro format, different animal.

In the consumer space, component = HD. And the problem is that DVD recorders and receivers that convert s-video/composite to component output must process, often upscaling and/or deinterlacing. We've already seen that happen in sample captures attached to posts in this forum.

The pro space doesn't really have an s-video/composite > component switch, at least nothing affordable.

Those s-video/composite > component adapter cables on Amazon/eBay are trash. Those remind me of USB converters that do nothing, not as advertised, not what you think.

Standalone consumer converters are about $100. Rather stupid, given that a good SD capture card is less than $100.

TBC is a wide term, and many TBCs leave portions of the signal relatively untouched, allowing further down-chain analog processing. It is sorta-kinda like capturing, as A>D>A is, but far less so than the conversion to component happening in a DVD recorder.

Blackmagic Designs cards do very poorly with SD sources (apparently excluding HDMI in the setups some here are using), and it's fact that Blackmagic themselves have admitted to. It's not a well-designed product for analog SD, and I'm really not surprised given how it was designed HD with HDMI input. Indeed, it is "broken", but its a model problem, not unit problem.

Olivier Talouarn · #26 11-26-2018, 09:27 AM

"Blackmagic Designs cards do very poorly with SD source" For upscale to HD or down scale HR tp SD, yes. Other part, ad converters are way over the bandwidth of VHS ... dont mismatch what Blackmagix says with "broadcast' thinking.
Sorry, but i use them (and AJA too) since 2005 ... and thats my work since 1986 ... before digital.
Way better with color space than any ATi or computer card with analog in ...
Any vectorscope-pscilloscope will show it.
And buy an old Snell and wilcox TBC ... to put between VHS and video capture card. Composite or YC or component workflow.
even transcode from scam to pal. cost : 550 euros for TBC+black magic. No match
Or find older AJA Kona. Did some VHS digit yesterday with it (AJ IO HD), today, i repeat with Blackmagic and compare. Difference will be thin ... cause of VHS source.

lordsmurf · #27 11-26-2018, 10:08 AM

I probably will get a Kona in the near future. I was slowly building an extra system in 2018, and got a few more deals this weekend on the few remaining pieces. It's entirely for my R&D, not had one of those for a while now, can reinstall OS/etc without interrupting hobby or work. I have a bunch of hardware here just waiting to be tested or retested.

Olivier Talouarn · #28 11-26-2018, 12:38 PM

Just digitizing with a Kona at this time ... Y/C in. Yes more clean than a cheap Blackmagic Intensity,
but a pain in the ... to set active in a Mac. Must use older OS 10.10. Sound offset in the capture, and low level because of XLR input. Can be easily corrected, no background audio noise (good preamps)
Best results seems : vidéo input Y/C in AJA, routed via SDI or HDMI in Blackmagic, audio direct in Black magic via low level RCA inputs. What a mess ...
Will soon try on Windows7, and much older OSX 10.9, to get rid of the audio offset.
And thanks to the external TBC, wick fill holes when tape is damaged.
(it s for an industrial work, not home movies ... so i try all kind of configurations, and have U-Matic and Betacam tapes do digitize too.)

dpalomaki · #29 11-27-2018, 01:07 PM

Quote:

In the consumer space, component = HD.

Perhaps today. However, in the SD past, before BluRay and HD/digital broadcast, it was not uncommon to find SD component outputs on DVD players and set top boxes. The target was higher end TV sets and projection and large screen TVs. Since then, it and s-video output have largely been replaced by HDMI, with an (often poorly executed) SD composite output remaining as well.

lordsmurf · #30 11-28-2018, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olivier Talouarn

and have U-Matic and Betacam tapes do digitize too.

We should keep in contact.

Not many U-Matic converters out there, not even professional services.U-Matic was largely broadcast industry, and conversions were often handled in-house. Probably once per year, we get inquiries. We've located some services in the past, and had clients act as guinea pigs, only to get back shoddy results. I was able to restore most of it, but the quality problems honestly should not have existed in the first place.

Olivier Talouarn · #31 11-28-2018, 03:58 AM

For good results with U-Matic, a "magic box" is needed. It converts and separate luma and chroma frequencies, which are very close, and transpose them to standard Y/C; avoiding the terrible cross color of composite; But the box is about 300 bucks ... and hard to find. Found a seller in England. May be i ll buy one. Must search for the link