#1  
12-09-2018, 02:29 PM
Olivier Talouarn Olivier Talouarn is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 25
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Learning to use a JVC HR-S9600. Good beast. Tbc is very efficient, but the manual is very unclear about the different settings. My concern is about interlacing. Want to keep it and manage deinterlace myself.
It seems "edit" mode keeps it, but not auto or '+' and '-" sharpness.
Sometimes it seems random ... Will go on with testing but if anybody used to this model, advices are welcome. thanks
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
12-09-2018, 02:36 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,502
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
TBC = ON

Calibration = OFF. Supposedly this would help the tape track better, but it never worked well, excluding some of the highest end later SR units. Calibratin ON/OFF is what changes AUTO/NORM settings name, though it essentially means the same thing.

Picture mode = NORM/AUTO removes chroma noise especially, some errant tape noises. Sometimes this setting harms the image, as can the TBC, but not usually. Leave it on as much as possible. EDIT turns off the NR, and that negates the reason you probably got the deck (ie, better quality output than normal VCR). Please do not confuse "detail" with noise, a common mistake made by newbies. Never use SHARP.

R3 = OFF, edge correction that is sloppy.

Interlaced is retained always. Nothing in the VCR deinterlaces.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #3  
12-09-2018, 03:30 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,680
Thanked 446 Times in 383 Posts
I believe the equivalent to video calibration on US decks is called B.E.S.T on the European ones (and D.S.P.C on Philips).
Reply With Quote
  #4  
12-10-2018, 07:21 AM
Olivier Talouarn Olivier Talouarn is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 25
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Very unclear, it seems a mix of dynamic tracking, easy to verify with on and of ... and "calibration".

BEST seems first relative to dynamic tracking. According to manual : "The B.E.S.T. (Biconditional Equalised Signal Tracking) system checks the condition of the tape in use during recording and playback, and compensates to provide the highest-possible recording and playback pictures. The default setting for both recording and playback is “ON”.

-- merged --

Manuals explanations differs from US ou UK manual. BEST is called "video stabilizer" in US, which (for me) is related to tracking. Denoise and TBC stay active if BEST is off. But, most important ; interlacing seems here, and not random ...

Test confirmed with check in the digitized file. Interlacing is here all the way.
So this leads to another question :
Does anybody compared different deintrelace methods. The AVySynth QTGMC versus DaVinci Resolve, which i often use
as a second denoise tool and finishing grade ? (but needs a pro Resolve for that ...
Reply With Quote
  #5  
12-10-2018, 09:28 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivier Talouarn View Post
interlacing seems here, and not random ...

Test confirmed with check in the digitized file. Interlacing is here all the way.
So this leads to another question :
Does anybody compared different deintrelace methods. The AVySynth QTGMC versus DaVinci Resolve, which i often use
as a second denoise tool and finishing grade ? (but needs a pro Resolve for that ...
What kind of "pro" video format and processing sources have been giving you so much misleading information?

Depending on how the tape has been mastered, VHS is either interlaced or hard-telecined -- VHS always plays as interlaced. Interlaced and telecined video should remain that way unless you have a good reason for making it otherwise.

There is no cleaner deinterlacer/denoiser than Avisynth's QTGMC. There is no better inverse telecine than Avisynth's TIVTC. Use Avisynth for denoising. Use DaVinci for color grading. For newer QTGMC and processing details see http://avisynth.nl/index.php/QTGMC.

Last edited by sanlyn; 12-10-2018 at 09:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
12-10-2018, 09:40 AM
Olivier Talouarn Olivier Talouarn is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 25
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well,a JVC HR-S9600 do NOT always play interlaced. Its "Best" system, associated with settings lead to reading with frame blending deintrelace, which i want to avoid. please don t go in pro advices ... it s my work since 1986 ... so i know all what you said. In Pro workflow, if old tapes are to be mixed with progressive rushes, they must be déinterlaced ... if its for computer consultation, they must be déinterlaced ... There is none absolute configuration nowadays. "What kind of "pro" video format and processing sources have been giving so much misleading information?" None. I just test and try to understand what the obscure consumer manuals mean with out of context "pro words". And reverse telecine is nor better or bad in any logiciel, it works or not. It s not supposed to modify the picture in any way. Not even touching original codec. So avisynth is bad for this,because of décode-re encode. Can de done without any

-- merged --

By the way; never tried MadVR. Is it possible to record it s output to a file ?

-- merged --

Confirmed. On JVC, "Best" must be set to "off" (beware it resets at each tape change) and to "edit" mode (witch resets also at each tape). Time to try QTGMC. I use it from editing software, with a frame server
Reply With Quote
  #7  
12-10-2018, 10:49 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
There is some accuracy to what you say, but mixed with much nonsense. For instance, you say that inverse telecine doesn't modify the images. If so, then why would you re-encode? And if you are capturing to lossless media, as you should be, there is no "re-encoding". Capture and post-processing with lossless media involves no lossy encoding until final output.

You are decided, so more information wouldn't help. Proceed at will.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
12-10-2018, 10:55 AM
Olivier Talouarn Olivier Talouarn is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 25
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ok, to be clear , it would not modify the color space of the image. And in good tools, keep metadata, audio ... No need for avisynth for this case. And its very quick. Its implemented in any good editing software ...
I m not digitizing home video ... Industry archives. From VHS to very high end Raw and log
Reply With Quote
  #9  
12-10-2018, 11:32 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivier Talouarn View Post
if old tapes are to be mixed with progressive rushes, they must be déinterlaced ... if its for computer consultation, they must be déinterlaced ...
That's not the way I've seen it done in pro broadcasting. "Must" is not correct, there are plenty of ways to mix interlaced/telecined and progressive without destructive processing. Everyone knows that computer media players know how to deinterlace on the fly. A pro knows better than to deinterlace just for computer use, and experienced pros know about deinterlacing using motion-compensated interpolation as in QTGMC. Perhaps you are targeting internet and low-quality home streaming.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
12-10-2018, 12:49 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,502
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
I believe the equivalent to video calibration on US decks is called B.E.S.T on the European ones (and D.S.P.C on Philips).
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivier Talouarn View Post
According to manual
Manuals explanations differs from US ou UK manual.
While the JVC manuals are helpful, they are not always accurate to video reality. I've been using high-end JVC S-VHS decks for 20+ years now.

Quote:
Does anybody compared different deintrelace methods. The AVySynth QTGMC versus DaVinci Resolve, which i often use
QTGMC is the best deinterlace, period.
NLEs like Davinci use vastly inferior methods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
VHS always plays as interlaced.
That's all that matters for this conversation, don't confuse the person more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivier Talouarn View Post
Well,a JVC HR-S9600 do NOT always play interlaced.
No.

I have no idea how you're coming to that conclusion, but it is false. VCRs do not contain deinterlacers, never have, never will. The output is always interlaced. BEST/calibration has nothing to do with interlacing, and are simply terrible methods to "help" tracking. I do try to leave BEST on with my HR-7965EK, but usually must turn it off as it actually causes tracking errors or bouncing/jitter.

Quote:
please don t go in pro advices ... it s my work since 1986 ... so i know all what you said. In Pro workflow, if old tapes are to be mixed with progressive rushes, they must be déinterlaced ... if its for computer consultation, they must be déinterlaced ... There is none absolute configuration nowadays.
So did I, for studios, for years, until health forced me to quit. There actually are some absolutes, things were you have zero choices (example: DVD-Video, BDMV specs), but I know what you mean here. Generally, yes, mixed modes are deinterlaced -- though sometimes you actually telecine the progressive, leave the whole thing interlaced. Yes, streaming must always be deinterlaced for web viewing -- an absolute, no choice.

Quote:
and reverse telecine is nor better or bad in any logiciel, it works or not. It s not supposed to modify the picture in any way. Not even touching original codec. So avisynth is bad for this,because of décode-re encode.
Avisynth also have several superior IVTC.
And you also stay as lossless intermediary until delivery/output, so no loss on re-encode occurs.

Quote:
By the way; never tried MadVR. Is it possible to record it s output to a file ?
That's just buggy freeware, isn't it? If you really are a pro, why don't you have an encoder like MainConcept TotalCode? When sticking to freeware, which I sometimes do as well, it really depends on the output needs. And you've not given us those. But it's somewhat off-topic to this thread, best suited for a new thread on that topic.

Quote:
Confirmed. On JVC, "Best" must be set to "off" (beware it resets at each tape change) and to "edit" mode (witch resets also at each tape). Time to try QTGMC. I use it from editing software, with a frame server
Now you're on the right path...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
There is some accuracy to what you say, but mixed with much nonsense.
And that's why he posted questions/confusion, and why we're posting helpful replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivier Talouarn View Post
Ok, to be clear , it would not modify the color space of the image. And in good tools, keep metadata, audio ... No need for avisynth for this case. And its very quick. Its implemented in any good editing software ...
I m not digitizing home video ... Industry archives. From VHS to very high end Raw and log
The same processes apply to both home videos and professional archives. When it comes to the hardware, and certain software, there is zero difference. It's only post-capture that professional methods and home methods differ. And if anything, Avisynth is used more in pro or serious hobby settings than your average home movie user. At least if the person is good, which sadly too many are not (just monkeys with sticks in an NLE).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Perhaps you are targeting internet and low-quality home streaming.
I've had to do that before, and didn't like it. The specs of the video were like 500kbps, audio was under 100kbps, but I found a way to make it look decent with pre-processing and some other tricks. When I wanted to bang my head in the keyboard was when the CEO said "that looks good, let's do some more of those". So yeah, that happened.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #11  
12-10-2018, 02:54 PM
Olivier Talouarn Olivier Talouarn is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 25
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I know Total Code. Strange travel from Main Concept to Rovi then coming back to Main Concept. So its just a rename of the old "MainConcept Reference"
By the way, the Main Concept Mpeg2 codec is everywhere, in Adobe or Episode (with i mainly use).
Din't tried MAdVR, most used by "pimp my video geeks", so i ask advices.
And off course i m not stuck in any software, even DaVinci Resolve. I look elsewhere if something is better, and it seems there are better deinterlace in Avisynth, so i will try.

YES, my UK version JVC deinterlace ... and i don t want it. Is it a feature or a bug , i dont know, but i have eyes to see ... especially when you digitize ... easy to see the frame blending in the files. Only "copy" mode take this off, and this parameter is not related to tracking of course, but video signal processing.
Being dogmatic is useless. Thats my reality. And the reality of people funding this job is "what are this strange tooth in the picture?' when they consult the database preview ... so yes i deintrelace. May be they will ask for 4k files with do NOT support interlacing, so yes i deinterlace... Yes it s a complex system, with multi referenced médias. So i need severals different versions, may be size and data rate. But i'm fed up , do i need to explain all the workflow to obtain advices on a simple question ?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
12-10-2018, 10:01 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivier Talouarn View Post
do i need to explain all the workflow to obtain advices on a simple question ?
Yes, of course.
And what is your simple question?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
12-10-2018, 10:22 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,502
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivier Talouarn View Post
YES, my UK version JVC deinterlace ... and i don t want it. Is it a feature or a bug , i dont know, but i have eyes to see ... especially when you digitize ...
It's simply not possible. Again, there is no deinterlacer. However...

Quote:
easy to see the frame blending in the files.
That's not necessarily deinterlacing. What you're apparently seeing is bad reaction of NR with your tape content. Odds are, the tape had some marginal ghosting issues, and NR just made it worse. You can have NR go awry, and be so severe that interlacing somewhat disappears (though not entirely, viewed frame by frame). I've only seen this a few times in the past 25+ years.

Quote:
Being dogmatic is useless. Thats my reality.
I'm not into dogma either. There are aspects we cannot fight, technical limitations, but variables must be dealt with intelligently.

Quote:
And the reality of people funding this job is "what are this strange tooth in the picture?'
Education is key.
Q = What is this (saw)tooth? -- ie interlace
A = Explain it to them.

An exception, of course, is if it's for streaming viewing. Or situations like that. But you should never deinterlace just top avoid questions by those that don't yet understand video.

Quote:
But i'm fed up , do i need to explain all the workflow to obtain advices on a simple question ?
Yes, you need to explain, mostly because you've said some things that seem off. That requires backing up a bit, to try and suss out the question and issue.

As sanlyn asks, what exactly is the question at this point?

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #14  
12-11-2018, 07:12 AM
Olivier Talouarn Olivier Talouarn is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 25
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Even if technically its not deinterlacing, frame blending occurs. Its not related to any particular tape, i have many.
I can reproduce the problem. Keep in mind its the UK, menu are a bit different from US. Electronic too. And it s for multi purpose use.
As an archive , just for looking at on computer, but also as a source for future editing needs. So i need both, interlaced and deinterlaced. May be upscaled for convenience. Re digitized 5 tapes yesterday, Edit mode (called copie in UK FR menu) seems stable at keeping interlacing,. And it does not disable all denoise. May be chroma, but temporal is still active. Easy to see on blue or red titles. Anyway this scope will go back for a little servicing, S-Video out is not active. But i must show some digit results before ...
Reply With Quote
  #15  
12-11-2018, 07:53 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
VCRs do not blend frames. This would be done by your capture device and/or software. We do not know what kind of capture device you are using. Otherwise, if there is any frame blending it would be embedded in the source tape. VCRs cannot make changes in frame structure. They simply play the video structure as-is.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
12-11-2018, 08:13 AM
Olivier Talouarn Olivier Talouarn is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 25
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
NO, i know what i do and use. Tried 4 differents capture cards. Intensity Pro PCie, Same version in Thunderbolt, AJA Io HD, MXO Mini. Stop thinking because YOU never saw it it, it will never happen. NO frame blending is not in the footage,If it was i would never be able to get them back, and it"s the case. As i said , stop dogma and useless advices. Stop thinking i m "home user". Its insulting
Reply With Quote
  #17  
12-11-2018, 10:29 AM
JPMedia JPMedia is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 150
Thanked 42 Times in 34 Posts
Hi Oliver. Can you attach a short sample from one of your captures? This would help users answer your question.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank JPMedia for this useful post: hodgey (12-11-2018)
  #18  
12-11-2018, 11:40 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivier Talouarn View Post
NO, i know what i do and use. Tried 4 differents capture cards. Intensity Pro PCie, Same version in Thunderbolt, AJA Io HD, MXO Mini. Stop thinking because YOU never saw it it, it will never happen. NO frame blending is not in the footage,If it was i would never be able to get them back, and it"s the case. As i said , stop dogma and useless advices. Stop thinking i m "home user". Its insulting
But why do you keep using a VCR that blends frames? There are other VCR's. All you need to do is find a VCR that doesn't blend frames.

Last edited by sanlyn; 12-11-2018 at 12:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
12-11-2018, 03:31 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,502
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPMedia View Post
Hi Oliver. Can you attach a short sample from one of your captures? This would help users answer your question.
Yes, sample required. Attach a small clip to a forum post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivier Talouarn View Post
Even if technically its not deinterlacing, frame blending occurs. Its not related to any particular tape, i have many. I can reproduce the problem.
Question is, are all of your tapes from the same origin? Because that is essentially "one tape source" for some conversations. When it's not a single tape, you must see if the group origin is also the root cause. That happens very often when I person has made dozens (or more) tapes on a single camera/VCR. All of them act the same.

Quote:
Keep in mind its the UK, menu are a bit different from US. Electronic too.
PAL and NTSC really are similar, not that different whatsoever. And if anything, PAL tends to be a bit more pleasant to work with, as no EP/SLP, and color loss is less often (though overly rich).

Quote:
May be upscaled for convenience.
That's rarely a good idea. Only when you're forced, usually due to making a documentary with mixed footage. 720p tends to be decent in those times, whereas 1080p just makes it uglier.

Quote:
Re digitized 5 tapes yesterday, Edit mode (called copie in UK FR menu) seems stable at keeping interlacing,. And it does not disable all denoise. May be chroma, but temporal is still active. Easy to see on blue or red titles.
No, it's not. EDIT/COPIE disengages the NR, however TBC may still be applying some different NR. Chroma noise is by far the worst inherent noise of the VHS format, even more than grain. Chroma NR happens on both TBC and AUTO/NORM fronts, not a single attack.

Quote:
S-Video out is not active.
Then how are you capturing? SCART, composite?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
VCRs do not blend frames. This would be done by your capture device and/or software. We do not know what kind of capture device you are using. Otherwise, if there is any frame blending it would be embedded in the source tape. VCRs cannot make changes in frame structure. They simply play the video structure as-is.
This is entirely accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivier Talouarn View Post
NO, i know what i do and use. Tried 4 differents capture cards. Intensity Pro PCie, Same version in Thunderbolt, AJA Io HD, MXO Mini. Stop thinking because YOU never saw it it, it will never happen. NO frame blending is not in the footage,If it was i would never be able to get them back, and it"s the case. As i said , stop dogma and useless advices. Stop thinking i m "home user". Its insulting
Blackmagic cards have well-documented issues with SD source, especially VHS. MX02 gets odd reports as well, though those can often be resolved. Most HD cards have SD as an afterthought feature, and sometimes those just "do stuff" that you're not aware of. It's not as easy as just buying whatever you want for capture, for VCR, TBC if you feel like it, and then it burps out a quality capture. If that were the case, sites like this would never exist.

There is no "home user" or "pro user" with VHS tapes. The format is a consumer analog, and whatever you are or are not is immaterial. The format has certain needs, and has nothing to do with you. Pros actually mostly deal with consumer formats, when not film or broadcast. Even in a studio, when not film, you're going to deal with many mixed formats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
But why do you keep using a VCR that blends frames? There are other VCR's. All you need to do is find a VCR that doesn't blend frames.
Although this is an easy answer, maybe even facetious, I certainly don't want misinformation online that a VCR deinterlaces, because that's not accurate nor even possible. Again, VCRs do not contain deinterlacers, and frame blending is not possible. Some aggressive NR can react badly to some tapes, but that's about it.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #20  
12-11-2018, 03:41 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: VA
Posts: 1,694
Thanked 369 Times in 325 Posts
Quote:
... its not deinterlacing, frame blending occurs ...
I wonder if this might be a result of a defective comb filter?
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Problems using the JVC HR-S9600 S-VHS VCR? MrMaki Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 5 12-01-2019 10:19 AM
JVC HR-DVS1 or JVC HR-S9600 for VHS restoration? Colota Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 1 04-01-2018 09:32 PM
List VHS players with SP, LP, SLP and EP modes? Mister Brot Videography: Cameras, TVs and Players 8 04-23-2017 03:17 PM
Suitable price for HR-S9600 JVC S-VHS VCR ? Tomas84 Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 4 10-23-2012 09:02 AM
Test of JVC Picture Modes (Norm, Edit, Soft, & Sharp) Belmont Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 6 08-07-2012 10:00 PM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:23 AM