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  #1  
01-26-2019, 02:12 PM
colombiunpride colombiunpride is offline
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TLDR;

I think I found a modern day workflow to get around finding a working DataVideo TBC-1000.

HandyCam DCR-TRV460 -> EliteVideo BVP-4 (Proc Amp) -> BrightEye 3 Analog to SDI Converter with TBC and Frame Sync (TBC) -> Magewell AIO USB Capture

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**Both the BrightEye TBC/FrameSync device and the Magewell capture card do color correction, but I was trying to do as much in analog before the signal was digitized.

I'm hoping that adjusting the color in analog doesn't effect the TBC. I assume this would be the similar to running the Elite Video BVP-4 before running it into a DataVideo TBC-1000.

I was going to run s-video from the handycam, to the BVP-4 to correct the color, I would then use a S-video to BNC breakout cable to split the S-video into luminance and chrominance signals to go into the BrightEye 3 (TBC).

The BrightEye3 also is a Analog to Digital converter so the output would be SDI. The Magewell AIO has both analog video inputs (svideo, composite, component, BNC) as well as a digital SDI input. You don't need to use a Magewell Capture device, you can use any that captures SDI.

I like the magewell AIO because although SDI can carry audio, the BrightEye3 doesn't have audio passthrough. I can just plug my audio directly into the magewell.

I'm hoping I don't have any audio sync issues. Not sure if the Datavideo TBC-1000 was straight audio passthrough or if any syncing was done with stabilized video signal.
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  #2  
01-26-2019, 03:50 PM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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Umm.. hmm..

I was so like you a couple years ago.

Generally the (dog) wags the (tail) not the other way.

That is the "signal" you have dictates the equipment you use.. its always different for nearly every tape.

Sometimes people just build a work flow and get tired of messing with it.. that's when they strip everything out.. and only insert (what they have too..) (when they have too..) because all of the devices have a domino effect on one another, some signals can conflict with different equipment in such complex ways all you can do is start from scratch each time and add one tool at a time, until something goes wrong.

Its not a "bad" workflow.. a camcorder as a line tbc can work.. if all your tapes were made on that, and some people use them as a pass-thru for other playback devices.

The BVP is very powerful and some people prefer not to use it because its so hard to control.. it takes a lot of attention and your playback is usually changing a lot during playback.

BrightEyes frame sync is an uncommon TBC.. I don't know a lot of people have one or have talked about one here.

I do have that exact same Magewell USB3 capture device, but its been "neutered" somewhat to make it better at "progressive" capture for digital sources. The drivers are top notch and awesome, so are the technical ADC chipsets, but they also have a built-in TBC which the manufacturer decided to permanently "switch off" thinking no-one would want to capture "analog" signals in the 21st century. Don't get me wrong.. its a really really nice piece of kit.. but there are better tools in the shed for digging ditches.

And there is no [one][best] road to where you are going.. the take away from all this.. is its a [whole lot] more variable than your probably thinking right now.

realistically you'll be plugging and pulling switching and watching all sorts of combinations to get an acceptable capture..

capitulation (truly) is an option however, and some try to optimize for middle of the road.. that's where I think you'll eventually head.. most of us get there.. in a round about way.

--

regarding color correction, that's a big can of worms most don't open after getting burned a little

its both simpler and more complex than most people realize

its simper because the broadcast studio or video house "baked in" the colors from the very beginning, the signal carries that imprint where ever it goes, it can drift over bad cables, or y/c comb filters (if used) but generally.. simply you'll just use sat and tint controls to bring it back to broadcast standard.. if you have the tools for doing that.. most people 'eyeball' it or leave it to a professional preservationist

'skewing' or white balancing can only go so far because of the 'low low' color resolution in the signal, before you start going Ted Turner Classic Movie Channelist.. and start "colorizing" a B&W signal like a comic book.. the BVP can do that for you

mostly i think the recommendation is worry about the Brightness and Contrast and any Clipping.. and leave the Color more or less as it is.. tweaking only very minor the sat and the tint so that you capture as much of the color [that's really 'there'] that gets you a true raw footage.. and post processing with other tools after capture can "decorate it" to individual taste.. even your playback device (that 50 inch widescreen) can dial in your preferences.. so maybe don't over think it

.. something you didn't mention was whether DNR is a part of your concerns, to grain or not to grain, some prefer it, some do not, some are at the mercy of the TBC since they are bonded together and you have no choice.. ultimately some people have to give in and use whatever "tracks" best with their source and [accept] whatever side effects that causes.. things like color bleed or color shimmer.. and that's when a sat control and a contrast control can help staunch the bleeding and slow it to a trickle... and realistically.. some are at the mercy of their wallet.. or frazzled wits end

---

all those generalities aside..

most people would say tell us about your source, the signal your going to put into this "flow" before asking anyone's opinion about it

its always the source that determines how "appropriate" or "inappropriate" it is

.. and how much effort you plan to put into it, or where its going.. to HDD to DVD, to (cringe) > YouTube

---

I really don't know what to say about SDI.. its usually higher bit rate and more for HD than SD and a lot more equipment than you really need... and a lot more cash outlay

.. but again, tell us about the source and where your trying to get it too.. that has to come before anything else

Last edited by jwillis84; 01-26-2019 at 04:29 PM.
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  #3  
01-26-2019, 04:54 PM
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It probably won't work well.

For many years, people have wanted to avoid TBCs, mostly due to cost. It's all in vain. Many have claims that something is "as good as TBC" or "like TBC" or even "a TBC", but it's not.

DataVideo and Cypress/AVToolbox/TVOne were specifically designed for consumer formats like VHS/S-VHS and Video8/Hi8. Something like the I.Den IVT7 was mad specifically for VHS, S-VHS and U-matic. This matters. There are characteristics of signals that will freak out processors not designed for that input. Snell & Willcox made gear for broadcast sources, not VHS.

Using HD capture cards for SD capturing adds another level of problems. Apparently these is a specific workflow, but it involves DVD recorders to help with front-end processing, and then mostly in PAL (not NTSC).

BVP4+ is nice, but has caveats, as does other processing gear. Only use it when needed, should not be constant part of workflow chain.

TBC-1000 was VP-299 distribution amp married to TBC-100 card. No audio processing, aside from splitting in the amp. It's suggested you bypass audio from VCR to capture card, to reduce potential noise introduction. (Not because TBC-1000 adds audio noise, but anything that adds more wires/etc has that potential. Never overwire.)

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  #4  
01-26-2019, 06:29 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
HandyCam DCR-TRV460 -> EliteVideo BVP-4 (Proc Amp) -> BrightEye 3 Analog to SDI Converter with TBC and Frame Sync (TBC) -> Magewell AIO USB Capture
Video8/Hi8 is usually much more gentle on TBCs and capture devices than VHS tapes are. The line-TBC in the Sony cameras is also quite good, so you normally don't need a very hardy external TBC for capturing them.
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01-26-2019, 06:39 PM
colombiunpride colombiunpride is offline
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Thanks for the clarification! I'm a newbie so the information was definitely appreciated.

I was just being hopeful in finding alternative in production TBCs considering all the good TBCs are hard to come by these days. Even when they are available, they don't seem to be in great working condition. I purchased a TBC-1000 that I had to return recently due to it now powering up correctly and causing a buzzing noise.

To clarify of my actual goal:

I have ~18 or so Video8 tapes filmed from 1997 to 2005 on a Sony Handycam that I was attempting to digitize. I was using a USB based capture card because I'm doing the conversion at my parents house as a side project when I'm in town. I only have a high powered laptop available for those purposes.

I thought I had done a decent amount of research and settled on buying a refurbished/restored HandyCam that was said to have a decent line-tbc, then over s-video to a DataVideo TBC-1000 (which I am still trying to find), then over to a BVP-4 Plus -> Magewell USB AIO. Having a USB capture card does limit my options a bit.

I may have incorrectly assumed how bad the colors would be degraded/washed out considering some of the tapes are over a decade old now. I figured I'd do some minor color adjustment on the BVP-4 in analog before digitizing.
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  #6  
01-26-2019, 07:12 PM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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Your goals and the source material helps a great deal.

Lordsmurf can probably give you some very good advice now. Be prepared, it may not be what you want to hear.. but give it serious thought.. and at least try what he recommends.

About that TBC-1000, there are several people and shops that "rebuild" them if they aren't too far gone.

Too far gone would be no signal at all or loud bangs and smoke, otherwise there are a lot of consumable parts inside like capacitors and discrete components that can be replaced. Its worth the effort to have a shop bring it back from the brink.. as you've seen they are in high demand.

Off hand.. if you don't want to mess with it consider selling it as-is to whoever it will buy it, but I'd think TGrantphoto could give you a good assessment for repair, or might offer you something for it. They are going for insane prices these days and I keep thinking someone should start a rental agency they are so highly prized.

And even if its totally beyond repair.. it has salvageable parts inside. Do not under any circumstances throw the TBC-1000 in the trash bin.. it is still very much valuable. Don't underestimate your position in having one, there are places you can get it fixed.

The problem your going to have most is lack of patience.

This is a nadir (low point) in the year when things get sold on eBay or Craigs List, its winter time and people are mostly in doors and if they really are capturing.. this is the time of the year they are doing that.. before all the new season of shows, or spring time when they can get out and do things.

That's the time of year they will sell their equipment, they will be done.. or had enough of it and want to spring clean their workshop or the family dinner table of all the equipment.

Unfortunately.. this is also the time of the year people browse the Internets and get the idea they want to start a capture project. I've seen it several years in a row.. eventually they will get bored and go away, but some real gems can pop up.. you just have to be observant and persistent. And be very careful of scam artists and insanely high prices.. people get a (but I want it Now Now Now) thing in their head and it leads to nothing good.

The real problem for you though.. is you have such a small number of tapes you really ought to be seeking a service bureau to do the captures and restoration for you.

--

regarding "appropriate" capture devices.. there is really only one in your case.. the ATI 600 USB.. and they do still pop up for sale. The reason is VirtualDub supports it well and is a solid performer. V.D. will give you choices to suit your hardware. After you get the raw footage.. you will need to think about long term storage.. burn to DVD, burn to Blu-Ray.. store on a portable HDD. Really you should be thinking Blu-Ray in my opinion.. but some prefer the tried and true DVD. HDD is not a good long term storage thought.. its poorly labeled, they get reused, they fail, people forget whats on them.. and they can get accidentally erased.. its human nature working against you.. HDD is bad bad bad thinking for long term storage. - To burn to DVD or BD you need a tool, something as simple as ImgBurn to make Data only discs, or an Authoring tool to make DVD or BD you can play in a dedicated player.. I usually reach for whatever is quickest and I know to get the "First" copy made as quick as possible.. and think about "perfecting it" later.

Other than the ATI 600 USB.. a Hauppauge Live 2 "can" be decent with V.D. and other Capture software can be okay.. but you really need to try not to stray too far from something people you trust (and know) have recommend. And you have tried or know about. Experimenting blind can be costly in money and time.

Try to divorce "try this try that" from "get the project done (onetime) first".. you can always revisit it later.

"device drivers" and "os" choice - no question Windows XP is the best "capture" OS, on modern hardware its nimble and not noisy as W7 or W10 which are always squawking to the Internet over wired or wifi connections. And XP will have the best driver support usually. W7 and W10 "can be" used.. but be prepared for headaches and false starts.. they are like children with the attention span of a gnat. First you need a reliable hardware device, but almost as important is reliable and trustworthy device drivers. Magewell has great device drivers, awesome.. its just the wrong tool for this job, its a last resort, out of money, out of time.. no other options choice. ATI 600 USB has premium device drivers, it plugs right into DirectX and you can use your choice of capture software (hint: use V.D.) Live2 is similar.. but has had several generations of the device.. so build quality varies.. you could get a lemon.. they go for less money that pro gear.. but also higher than a twenty dollar surprise package that almost certainly won't work.

.. final note about the Magewell, or any Game Capture device.. its like falling off a building.. "so far so good.." when the signal being fed into it is from a TiVo, a DVD recorder or some other 'Digital Source' the capture device doesn't have to work very hard.. its all very predictable and clean.. when your capture card is slashing a path through muck and mud that 40 yr old tapes is spewing forth like a Hawaiian volcano .. that delicate SDI digital capture card is going to fold.. you won't know what your missing until you see it in a hurricane.. the little armored tank capture device made for the environment will inch its way across the capture landscape getting the job done.. the SDI prima donna.. will just take its ball and go home. Intermediary TBCs and frame synchronizers can "help" but they can't really compensate for everything.. if your going camping in the wilderness.. you need to be prepared.

Last edited by jwillis84; 01-26-2019 at 07:50 PM.
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01-26-2019, 07:24 PM
colombiunpride colombiunpride is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
About that TBC-1000, there are several people and shops that "rebuild" them if they aren't too far gone.
I'd love to hear if you knew of any shops besides TGrantphoto. I spoke to them/him (the owner) the other day on the phone. He said unfortunately he can't/doesn't repair DataVideo TBC-1000s because he doesn't have the schematics for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
TGrantphoto could give you a good assessment for repair, or might offer you something for it.
I may follow up with them. I spoke to lead tech at DataVideo and he gave me a NDA to sign, and he said he could send me the schematics for the TBC-1000.

I agree with you on that I may be rushing things. I'll just need to be patient. I think the stress is coming from the fact that I've ordered a lot of gear already and haven't been able to verify the workflow in the "return" period. That is to say if something doesn't work out, I'll just have to deal with reselling as opposed to returning something that doesn't mesh with the workflow.
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01-26-2019, 08:07 PM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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Interesting that TG would not take it on. I know they get overbooked with business and have to pick and choose their projects now.

It could be as you say they have run up against a wall with regards to available schematics or parts.. that does happen sometimes.

Something you "might" try is replace the power supply with a fresh, new one that has plenty of Amperage to supply whats needed. Usually the small wall wart power supplies are the "most consumable" thing to fail.. they have no fuse, no protection and don't last long. They tend to overheat and or get thrown against a wall a few times until they cry uncle and start buzzing or providing too low a power for the TBC. Even an electrical company power surge or near by lightning strike can ruin them.

Last time I visited TGrants website I think they listed a compatible power supply for certain models of TBC.. its very important to get the right one. The polarity of the connector has to be correct, and the voltage and the amperage. Far too often people grab the wrong one by mistake and plug it into the "wrong" device and fry it.. or at best the device screams in horror. If you got it second hand and it performs poorly I would suspect the power supply first. Be "sure" its the correct power supply.. even between the DataVideo TBC models they changed the power supply voltages and specifications.. don't try to use a TBC3000 power supply on a TBC1000 or vice versa.. be "hyper aware" of what your doing.

Another source is Digikey, they sell Phi-phong wall warts of all shapes and capacities brand new. Its trickier though to be sure of the "correct" polarity voltage and amperage requirements doing it this way though.. don't try to go bargain shopping for power supplies.. that's a sure path to a sad situation. [Remember] the power supply that came with your TBC "may not be the correct one" it could be whatever someone tossed in the shipping box. It could be the wrong power supply.

Last edited by jwillis84; 01-26-2019 at 08:24 PM.
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  #9  
01-26-2019, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
but I'd think TGrantphoto could give you a good assessment for repair, or might offer you something for it.
He won't touch them. DataVideo repair is a can of worms. After we inquired about a repair with him several years ago, and being declined, I decided to tear some units apart myself. I had nothing to lose. These are not easy to resuscitate, and I had both successes and failures. I expanded into Cypress, same story there. Hardware testing and repair is time consuming, and I no longer want to do it either.

Quote:
And even if its totally beyond repair.. it has salvageable parts inside. Do not under any circumstances throw the TBC-1000 in the trash bin.. it is still very much valuable. Don't underestimate your position in having one, there are places you can get it fixed.
Or more importantly, it may not be a complete dud, and has some value, when frankensteined with another unit to create a new good one. What most people don't realize is that DataVideo always had production changes and revisions. There are at least 4 different ways that a TBC-1000 can be built, with the easiest of them being a removable TBC-100 card at the core. But those are rare, I've only seen 1 in 20 years. The other 3 revisions have different wiring and soldered components to mess with.

Quote:
when things get sold on eBay or Craigs List,
I've seen it several years in a row..
It's also diminished year over year. And it's not just specific gear, but all of it. Both good TBCs and crappy abused rackmounts are equally in short supply. Recommended VCRs and junk VCRs are equally in short supply. For many years, you could type in something like "Turtle Beach Santa Cruz" or "ATI All In Wonder PCI", and get 25+ results for each, all below $50, sometimes as low as $15. But now each is rare, 1 per month or less. I foresaw this years ago, and it's why I still kept 5x more than I really needed.

Quote:
regarding "appropriate" capture devices.. there is really only one in your case.. the ATI 600 USB.. and they do still pop up for sale.
They sure do: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/mark...ati-600-a.html

Quote:
Try to divorce "try this try that" from "get the project done (onetime) first".. you can always revisit it later.
I've invented so many wheels that I can having a racing team. Learn from me, emulate my successes. That's why I established this site so many years ago. The recipes to make good video are here. Just follow them. Don't be stubborn and insist on other/unknown gear (HD card, Win10, etc), as it may not work, will waste your time, especially if you're a novice to video.

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