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  #1  
01-25-2019, 11:20 AM
ELinder ELinder is offline
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I have acquired a laptop and have a clean install of Windows 7 SP1. Huffyuv and Lagarith codes are installed and Virtualdub 1.9.11 sees and can use the codecs. I installed the Pinnacle 510-USB drivers for Windows 7 64bit version 14.0.0.166 (64 bits) from http://cdn.pinnaclesys.com/SupportFi...readmeHW10.htm. It shows up in the Windows System Device Manager and VDub sees it. However I can't find a way to switch the video input to the S-Video connector from the composite video connector. If I use the yellow composite the video previews properly in VDub. If I use the S-Video, all I see is a black preview screen.

Erich
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01-25-2019, 11:26 AM
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I'm having this exact same issue myself right now. Let me know what you find.

UPDATE:

Download the attached mini-program Crossbar Thing, unzip to a portable software folder (C:\Portable is suggested). Run it after the Pinnacle card is connected, but before starting VirtualDub. This allows you to change from composite to s-video. Easy workaround.


Attached Files
File Type: zip CrossbarThing.zip (107.7 KB, 42 downloads)

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  #3  
01-25-2019, 11:34 AM
ELinder ELinder is offline
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So far I've found nothing, that's why I asked here. Haven't you used this device before?

I'm wondering if there was some sort of configuration section in the Pinnacle Moviebox software that came with the 510-USB. I haven't been able to find a copy of it so far.

-- merged --

Aargh! A very dim lightbulb clicked on in my brain and I went back and tried the 510-USB again in my Windows 10 Bootcamp installation on my iMac Pro. Same problem: the composite video is visible, but not the S-video. I had always tried the S-Video and assumed the whole thing didn't install properly. I could have saved myself the trouble of finding Windows XP and trying it in a VM, finding a Windows 7 version, and finding a Windows laptop to install it on!

Now to figure out how to make the S-Video input active.

Erich
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  #4  
01-25-2019, 06:37 PM
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This card works fine in XP, and XP laptops, but capture cards don't work in VMs. I wish they did.

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  #5  
01-25-2019, 06:45 PM
ELinder ELinder is offline
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Card? You mean USB box, don't you? The s-video in port works without any sort of setup for the 510-USB under WinXP?

The Toshiba laptop I have Windows 7 installed on can't run Windows XP. I tried, the installer crashes shortly after starting. So I'm seeing this s-video input problem under both native Win 7 and 10.

Erich
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  #6  
01-25-2019, 06:50 PM
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capture card = USB/firewire box, USB stick, PCI/AGP/PCIe card
Same difference.

I still have my 2006 HP that can capture, monitor calibrates fairly well (but I hate the shiny screen), slow USB2 only, and has XP. It runs almost everything I throw at it: ATI 600 USB, ATI 600 USB clones, Pinnacle USB 510/710-USB, and many other (mostly inferior) cards.

I don't believe the 510 has an s-video/composite selection, it just auto-senses the input.

I've been too busy to troubleshoot further.

It came with Pinnacle Studio, which is/was complete trash for capturing.

This specific card is very nice, in terms of video quality, falls in between the ATI 600 and ATI AIW. Bonus is that it natively allows audio preview during VirtualDub capture with no dropped frames. And then it has that rare firewire>USB bridge, if you need it.

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  #7  
01-25-2019, 07:24 PM
ELinder ELinder is offline
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Like I said, XP is not an option for the laptop I now have.

I have found an old knowledge base article that shows the Pinnacle Studio software has a section for selecting either the composite video or s-video input for that capture software, but there's no way of knowing if that actually changes some setting in the 510 or not. If we have a disk image for that we can at least install it to see if the s-video works within that program to make sure it's not a hardware problem but a software problem.

Erich
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  #8  
01-25-2019, 08:14 PM
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.. you can install GraphEdit (only) by using the GrapEdit installer from here

GraphEdit Installer

Then you can "build" a Tool for your 510 by [adding "filters"] and connect them by drag and dropping between pins exposed by the filters to produce a [Graph]

For a capture device the recipe is:

[crossbar] + [capture driver] + [output target file/renderer]

The S-Video will be one of the choices when you [right-click] on the [crossbar] filter for the Pinnacle 510

It will show up as a choice in a drop down box [composite/s-video] for the input

Regardless of whether your Application is controlling the 510, this tool you built will still "turn the knobs".

[Another way] is to use a different tool to get at the same thing:

[Stoik Image Capture] is a free tool with minimal install that will quickly let you access the drivers [applet panels] for setting input sources, I don't know if it will actually work with the 510.. which is why I mention the GraphEdit method.. that will always work. But Stoik, when it works.. is frankly awesome in its simplicity. -- again you don't have to use it for capture, it just gives you a way to "set the switches" on the driver.. there after your tool will use it like you expect.

Of course the best solution is find the settings tool in your Pinnacle capture tool.. I guess Pinnacle Studio? Which has that separate Capture tool for Importing.. and the big slide out control panels on either side of the bottom area.
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  #9  
01-25-2019, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELinder View Post
If we have a disk image
I do. I got this one new at Fry's 10+ years ago, cube box, manuals, all software discs. The main Pinnacle Studio Plus install DVD had both drivers and the Studio 11 software. There was also a bonus DVD. (My later units with plain-box refurbs, just the capture cards and USB cable.)

It'll take a while to rip and upload. Busy tonight, too.

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  #10  
01-25-2019, 08:46 PM
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All I have is a Pinnacle Studio Plus 10.5 on XP with a USB-700

.. so its a poor example for your exact situation, but here is a screen cap of where the Composite - S-Video switch is in that program

Pic is attached.

The Settings don't actually go into effect until you tweak a setting and press Okay.

- to clarify, you can "Select S-Video" the Green radio button, but nothing happens, to send the command to switch to the USB capture device, you have to click the Settings button and change something, Click OK and that closes and all the commands are sent at once.. and the Preview window "magically" lights up

Pic 2 - USB-700 GraphEdit - is on Windows 7 x64, the S-Video control box is lower (Left) > "other" right

.. what i recall from "some place" is Corel Pinnacle Studio? supported the Bender and Marvin USB boards right up until like version 18 or so, which I think gets you to Windows 10.. but I've never verified that unsubstantiated "rumor".. and for sure they are no longer supported in current versions .. i get massively confused between Ulead Video Studio and Pinnacle Studio.. i think Corel acquired "both" ??


Attached Images
File Type: jpg View Capture menu.jpg (72.1 KB, 18 downloads)
File Type: jpg USB-700 GraphEdit.jpg (51.9 KB, 16 downloads)

Last edited by jwillis84; 01-25-2019 at 09:09 PM.
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  #11  
01-25-2019, 11:00 PM
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Aha.. figured out my problem with 700-USB and VirtualDub x64 Capture on Win7 x64.

Its USB so I should have known the "Default" VirtualDub setting Video > Overlay (does not work!) you can't overlay with a capture device that is not in your PC on a Video device that is [in] your PC.. duh

As soon as I clicked the alternative Video > Preview (up) comes the Video

Next problem was "No Audio"

For some reason the x64 Pinnacle drivers do not register the audio pin as a valid sound source, but it works just fine in GraphEdit if you "wire" the audio pin to the "Default DirectSound Device". The Default DirectSound Device has no trouble accepting the outflow from the capture device audio pin and faithfully rendering it.

VirtualDub "defaults" to using the Capture device as the audio source, it just assumes it has an audio pin and hooks itself to it. So it just does the right thing. But you have to manually [turn on] "Enable audio playback" in VirtualDub to hear it.. by default that is unchecked.

So VirtualDub captures in Windows 7 x64 from the Pinnacle 700-USB without problems.

The "informative" thing is, this works completely with 64 bit drivers, and the 64 bit version of VirtualDub in the 64 bit version of Windows 7 as a lossless capture solution.. but there may be caveats. I would suspect it would work similarly for the 510-USB hardware device.

p.s. tested with a Pinnacle MovieBox deluxe (other blue box) I'm not sure if it is a (500 or a 510) but it works similarly, VirtualDub captures losslessly with this on Windows 7 x64


Also found a Corel Supported Hardware page for Pinnacle Studio 16


Attached Images
File Type: jpg USB-700 VirtualDub x64 b.jpg (80.2 KB, 13 downloads)
File Type: jpg USB-510 VirtualDub x64.jpg (63.9 KB, 12 downloads)

Last edited by jwillis84; 01-26-2019 at 12:00 AM.
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  #12  
01-26-2019, 12:23 AM
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last tip.. I think the GraphEdit is "Crucial" to setting the Crossbars to select S-Video, if I start VirtualDub after a reboot, the video window is blank and there is no way to get to the crossbar from within VirtualDub for this device to manually select S-Video

But if I run GraphEdit "first" and select S-Video then shut that down and start VirtualDub, it leaves S-Video selected and everything works.. this seems to be a common suggestion for other capture hardware where the crossbar isn't accessible within a capture app. I guess those app writers never tested beyond using the Composite Input as a default

What confused me.. was GraphEdit "stores" its last state when saved, and if S-Video is the "saved" state, then starting it and shutting it down immediately "sets" the crossbar input to S-Video.. so I didn't think it was necessary.. only after a reboot did this occur to me.. looking at the blank window.. I shut down VirtualDub, started GraphEdit, then shut that down and restarted VirtualDub and everything was working

.. annoying (1) third party apps leave out a control to expose the crossbar input selector (2) third party apps don't default to the capture device as audio input, unless its registered as an audio source in the registry

simple to work around, but irritating to figure out.. you almost need a "guide" to using this hardware
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  #13  
01-26-2019, 12:25 AM
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Changing Overlay to Preview does nothing in Win7 for 510-USB that I've seen. First thing I tried.
I'll try to the GraphEdit trick.

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  #14  
01-26-2019, 12:33 AM
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another tip.. I have the "silver" [MovieBox USB] and "brown" [Liquid Pro Bob] boxes, those do not have x64 drivers, they only have x32 drivers, just for fun I plugged the MovieBox USB in and it searched for a driver but failed.. not surprising.

especially since Pinnacle 16 hardware support specifically calls it out as "not supported"

OBS has a post referring to a tool called the "crossbar tool" which sounded like a standalone app.. I couldn't find it, but that could be very useful if such a thing exits, just for this situation, all it would have to do is list all the possible capture devices and expose the crossbar properties page so you could switch the Inputs.. it sounds like a very minor application, almost a control panel applet

Ha!

Found it.. its called [Crossbar Thing] and looks like a quick hack put together for just such an occasion.

I'll leave the link to the OBS post where you can get a copy of it (removed the) upload I made of it.. probably best to leave links and not actual files.

p.s. well.. [Crossbar Thing] does exactly what its suppose to do.. it works.. its useful. But I can't replicate the problem that brought me to go find "Crossbar Thing". It seems VirtualDub "Defaults" back to [Overlay] which never works with a USB capture device, so it always starts up with the Blank window.. until I go to [View > Preview] to snap the video back on, but it seems the S-Video setting "sticks" across reboots and the "choice" to [Audio > Enable audio playback] also "sticks" across reboots.

It is this "reversion" back to [View > Overlay] which "does not" "stick" which causes the confusion.

Once you get comfortable with it.. its great.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Crossbar Thing p1.jpg (34.3 KB, 20 downloads)

Last edited by jwillis84; 01-26-2019 at 01:08 AM.
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  #15  
01-26-2019, 02:15 AM
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Ok.. gee

There are a lot of models with similar names in the Pinnacle Line.

I was testing with the Blue [Porsche] boxes

About half the models are "other" or not [Porsche] boxes, and so could be of a very different design

The Blue [Porsche] boxes are supported under Win7 x64 (700-usb and MovieBox-Deluxe)

The Silver [Porsche] boxes are not supported under Win7 x64 (MovieBox-USB and MovieBox-DV)

The Blue rectangle box (500), and the white and black Pods (510w and 710b) are something very different. I think they are supported under Win 7 x64 -- but I have nothing to test with.

If the proper Win7 x64 driver is downloaded from Pinnacle direct > driver downloads

It looks like the testing I performed would also apply to the Blue rectangle box (500), and the white and black Pods (510w and 710b) they are all supported by the same hardware driver for Win7 x64


Attached Images
File Type: jpg MovieBox-DV.jpg (90.0 KB, 11 downloads)
File Type: jpg MovieBox-USB.jpg (52.0 KB, 10 downloads)
File Type: jpg MovieBox Deluxe.jpg (66.7 KB, 12 downloads)
File Type: jpg 700-USB.jpg (71.0 KB, 12 downloads)
File Type: jpg 500-USB.jpg (57.0 KB, 10 downloads)
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  #16  
01-26-2019, 04:51 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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What chips/hardware does these things have?

Both empia and conexant dongles have some registry settings that store driver settings, maybe there's something similar for these.
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  #17  
01-26-2019, 09:39 AM
ELinder ELinder is offline
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Thanks all, lots of stuff to try.

How do I find out what chipset is in mine? The ID on the back says Pinnacle Systems 510-USB Rev:2.0

Erich



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File Type: jpg IMG_2187 (1).jpg (25.6 KB, 159 downloads)
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  #18  
01-26-2019, 09:49 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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The driver or info in about the device in the device manager can give a hint, or alternatively you can look inside it.

As for registry settings, you can nagivate to
Code:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{4D36E96C-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}\
in the registry editor. One of the numbered entries there may be the pinnacle. One of the keys in each of these folders usually has a name saying what it is. May be
Code:
USB2.0 video capture
or similar.
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  #19  
01-26-2019, 11:23 AM
ELinder ELinder is offline
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OK, I have both questions and results.

0: Which version of GraphEdit should I be using? There's x64.exe and x86.exe, I used x64.

1: Is there a link to the GraphEdit help file? The laptop I'm installing this on is not connected to the internet, so when I click the help file it can't open help.

2: Related to 1, how are you adding the crossbar first in GraphEdit? When I add the 510-USB it only shows an analog in pin, not also an s-video in pin like your screenshot.

3: Stroik Image Capture comes up "Cannot work with video device" and of course does not show a preview.

4: Crossbar Thing: It brings up a list with: Pinnacle 510-USB Cossbar and Pinnacle 510-USB. Selecting the crossbar version brings up the properties and I can select the Input from "0: Video Composite In" and change to "1: Video Video In" Apply, close.

5: Launch Stiok, no error, and it shows the video preview!

6: Launch VDub, it sees the video from the S-Video input! Hurray!!!

7: Close all, reboot Windows, and I'm back to square one. The crossbar s-video input changes were not saved in the 510-USB device. Repeat all, same results. So unless we can find a way to get the selection crossbar setting to save, the Crossbar Thing needs to be used before Vdub.

This was all on the Toshiba laptop running Windows 7 SP1. I'll also try it on my iMac Bootcamp Windows 10 also.

edit: I get the exact same behavior in all steps in Windows 10 on my iMac Bootcamp partition.

Thanks a ton!

Erich

Last edited by ELinder; 01-26-2019 at 11:48 AM. Reason: added question 0:
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01-26-2019, 02:17 PM
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Good feedback.

You've confirmed my assumption that the 700, 710, 510 and MovieBox Deluxe are all essentially the same design and behave similarly. (or at least specifically in the case of the 700, 510 and MovieBox Deluxe)

The chipsets inside can be photographed by pulling the case apart, but there is not much information to be found. These came from a time when chipsets were being obscured, sanded down or relabeled.

By rumor and guess, the chipsets are presumed to be based on the Connexant series.. which is broad and could be based on their acquired Bt878 and later Fusion chip which was a better but compatible chip designed to work with lots of software. But they also had extra FPGA glue logic to support both (Input and Output) of video signals, and pass-thru.. this drove their costs higher than most.

Its also essentially a Chip at the end of a string, or USB cable.. so there is a gateway chip that the driver communicates with to perform requests and return data through.. these are not PCI cards after all.

I like the heavy metal boxes, which I assume dissipate heat better than plastic boxes, because none of them have internal fans for cooling.

The MovieBox Deluxe requires an external power plug/wall adapter in addition to the USB cable.

The 700-usb is like the MovieBox Deluxe except it is USB cable powered and requires no power plug/wall adapter.. thats one less plug. And people had been known to grab the "wrong" voltage wall adapter in haste and "fry" their capture box (also called a "BOB - aka the Break Out Box).

===

As per "saving" or making "sticky" the S-Video crossbar setting. I have no formula to make it work.. I thought at first is was not "sticky" and began confirming that.. then suddenly it "stuck".. how I did that I do not know. -- only hint, I was reading something about it (only) being relevant when [unplugging and re-plugging the device into the PC USB port] -- I assumed that meant it would [wipe out] the S-Video crossbar state.. but in my case it "seemed" to have the opposite effect and made it "sticky".. I can't confirm this, I would have to setup a new test PC with Win7 x64 to verify the procedure all over again.

The [Crossbar Thing] is functional enough, that whether it is "Sticky" or "not Sticky" its easy enough to fire the C.T. tool up and change it to whatever I want it to be without bringing up GraphEdit.

GraphEdit is the (big guns) its relatively big and heavy, its solid and certain, its Microsoft's tool for designing all the capture tools that use DirectX, every developer has to use it.

But it also has an Achilles heel in that if the "filter" stack has a gap in it, when you try to list the DirectX filters it will crash.. frustratingly so.. avoid using it "if you can". (It does let you "design" the workflow and select specific filters however, that can enhance performance, or troubleshoot filter problems.. so it does have benefits, and a graph file can be saved and run from the command prompt for automation.. but its a Big Tool.. with not a lot of documentation).

There are a couple of [re-imagined] or [GraphEdit done 'right'] apps you can buy or find online, its the ultimate Swiss Army knife.. but you can frustrate yourself quite easily, there is never enough DirectX documentation for using GraphEdit.. its more an acquired skill over time. Mostly Game Capture people figure out and "share" Graphs for different hardware, which you can copy or study and put together yourself like a kid with Blocks or an Erector set.

DirectXSpy can plug a "wedge" under a Third Party Capture app, and "expose" the hidden "private" Graph embedded inside the application.. hard to do on Windows x64, easier to do on Windows XP.. but anyone can do it with enough patience.. and that is how most Third Party "Graphs" get "leaked" online. (I always liken it to prying up the finger nails of the application to "see what's inside" -- or maybe its more like 'Popping the Hood' on this Chevy)

Stoik and many other capture tools have a problem in that they require the capture device to have its audio pin "registered" in the window registry in order to use it. Otherwise you can capture Video, but not Audio.

Two work arounds:

1. Use VirtualDub to capture Video and Audio, V.D. assumes the capture device has an audio pin without looking for it in the registry.. I think its unique in this behavior.

2. Get an RCA connector cable and connect your audio source (directly) to an internal Sound Card on your PC, then select that Sound Card as the Audio source when capturing with the Pinnacle USB as the video capture source.. this is very much like using an ATI capture card. But you have another cable to dance around and connect. -- this should work with almost [any] Third Party Capture software. -- this should also work on a laptop with a (mic) or (line in) jack on the side.. or you could get a USB sound card, but don't use a USB hub.. that would be unwise.

And its no different really than using ATI MMC or ATIs later native capture software.. or even Adobe Premiere. (simply) the driver for these devices wasn't quite "complete" as far as audio support was concerned.. and frankly for the time, it was very common to not capture the audio with the video capture device.. inconvenient, but not uncommon. -- only later BDA (tv tuner) cards brought single source capture to the table. Dualing USB (combo) devices where a single USB device had [two] functions] was poorly supported under Windows and the combo USB.inf support file was not under the protection of the Windows SFC support tool. It often went missing and then the USB device would be limited to only one function per device anyway.. fortunately that one function as usually video capture.

[This happens to me (a lot) with Empia capture dongles, some have a secondary audio function, some do not, but if you do not get Windows to install a separate driver for video and a separate driver for audio, you will only get the video function.. grrr.. if you know its supposed to have audio capture but it doesn't show up.. something has removed or 'hidden' the windows multi-function USB support driver in windows/inf .. i think some Third Party's were adding in their own support for multi-function before MS offered it.. but when you install and remove theirs it doens't put back the MS version they whacked on their way out of the system (during uninstall). ]

There were and "are" audio fanatics which never liked the audio a video capture device would provide and went their own way anyway using higher end audio cards.. so this is not without precedent. Separating it can give you the opportunity to use higher end gear ('cherry picking' it for the purpose or the features it provides). Or the chance to clean up ground loops, or get the audio ADC away from the nosy environment of the PC itself.

This method should work with OBS for example... and its probably the best of example of where people choose not to use the onboard audio capture features of a video capture device regularly.

(And)

3. Don't forget Pinnacle Studio [supported] this hardware up to at least version 14, which means like V.D. they "knew" not to rely on the registry for finding the audio pin. That means Pinnacle Studio can be used for Importing video and then you use it in any editor or DVD authoring program you want.

--

One other thought on the S-Video "sticky" setting, (using other Capture Software) "after" you have it set like you want, will often [reset] the defaults of the capture device to "Composite" before trying to [open] the connection to the device.

Since I figured out VirtualDub will capture [both] audio and video at the same time.. I've just "stuck" to using that and had no problems. But if I use some other random application, I run back to C.T. to open the crossbar and check its status.. and its always set [back] to "Composite".. so I flip it back to "S-Video" and it stays until the next time I run a random "take charge" app that [resets] the crossbar.

. since we are talking Win7 - Live Movie Webcam import for DirectX devices.. does not work.. it sputters and chokes.. just don't do that, it wasn't meant to work.. it was abandoned internally by MS before it was released as a separate add-on for Win7.. there are such better choices out there for Importing/Capturing video.. V.D. for example

Last edited by jwillis84; 01-26-2019 at 03:17 PM.
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