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  #1  
02-21-2019, 11:19 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I posted a link to a MPEG-2 capture using the JVC D-VHS deck in this thread the sample is here to download, I promised Sanlyn to provide a lossless sample to compare and since I just acquired the BE75 and BlackMagic UltraStudio SDI USB capture device I thought I do the lossless capture (download here) with the following workflow:
JVC HR-S7600AM (TBC/DNR ON) --> S-Video/HiFi Stereo Cables --> BE75 (TBC/Frame Sync ON) --> SDI Cable --> BM UltraStudio SDI Device --> USB Cable --> BM MediaExpress Capture Software 10bit 4:2:2 YUV

And here is another sample using VDUB2.





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File Type: jpg ME.jpg (35.5 KB, 75 downloads)

Last edited by latreche34; 02-21-2019 at 11:46 PM.
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  #2  
02-22-2019, 03:16 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Thaniks.
RGB is not 4:2:2.
720X486 ?
A lot of gear and expense just to get meager detail and seriously crushed darks.
Don't you guys ever use better source material?

Our readers need instructions on what they can do with this thread when your samples disappear from MediaFire.
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  #3  
02-22-2019, 03:21 AM
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720x486 is a valid measurement that's almost never used.

Remember not to assume crushed darks, details, etc, aren't a flaw of the source. That has to be trroubleshooted, to see where it's coming from.

Even commercial VHS can be lousy source material. Most VHS is. We're so spoiled these days!

Yes, please attach files to forum posts!

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  #4  
02-22-2019, 10:10 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
720x486 is a valid measurement that's almost never used.
No wonder it's mod-4 RGB. Adobe is fond of using this size. But Why is it almost never used? Should we be capturing 720x486? How about 720x470? It would eradicate most head switching noise.

Run Info() on that source. Let us know what Avisynth says about it. I won't post the Info results I saw because apparently no one trusts me but it didn't say 4:2:2. Didn't we say something about capturing to RGB? IS it a better idea? If these were originally YUY2, as Latreche34 says, why are they now RGB? Have you ever vseen illegal YUV levels converted to RGB? Does it look like these videos?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Remember not to assume crushed darks, details, etc, aren't a flaw of the source. That has to be trroubleshooted, to see where it's coming from.
Who's assuming? There's another thread with the same video. Illegal levels there, too, just different levels. And more detail, especially in then shadows. But why measure? Better to just guess?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Even commercial VHS can be lousy source material. Most VHS is. We're so spoiled these days!
Spoiled? Conditioned, untrained, and Inexperienced. There are plenty of good test sources out there. This is supposed to be a test of....what ? bad generic video as seen thru expensive gear?? It's definitely good advice against MPEG capture seen in the earlier post with the same video. Both threads should be stickies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Yes, please attach files to forum posts!
Video1 is huffyuv 935 MB
Video 2 is huffyuv 613 MB
As YUY2 huffyuv on my system both files are only a fraction of those sizes.

It's a valuable capture for many reasons, just not for the reaons intended. I'm bowing out of this one permanently. Maybe I've seen too much bad video lately. No one seems to be learning anything, and it looks to be getting worse. What a shame.
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  #5  
02-22-2019, 11:21 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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What's the advantage of capturing to 10-bit video here? I could be wrong on this, but given when these VCRs came out and the memory size I would doubt it's digitized to more than 8-bit in the TBC/DNR section of the VCR anyhow.
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  #6  
02-22-2019, 01:48 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Ok, let me make some clarifications here. The first sample is from BM MediaExpress is indeed 10bit YUV probably should have used 8bit, I cannot change the resolution, It is set to 720x486 and there is nothing I can do about it.

The second sample is VertDub 2, The only setting for HuffYUV available and was the only option I could capture, I get an error message for other codecs, Probable should have used legacy VDub with classic plugins.

The reason of choosing this material is because it has been discussed earlier. but I can make some captures with new cleaner materials using 3 types of hardware, D-VHS deck capture to MPEG-2, Lossless capture with Vdub and a USB capture device, and a lossless capture with BE75 and UltrStudio+MediaExpress (I cannot get Vdub to work properly with BM UltraStudio box, so this option is not considered).

Expensive gear doesn't really mean expensive nowadays, The whole thing cost me less than $300 in a used market, If you would buy those retail in their hay day it will cost $1500 for BE75 and $300 for UtraStudio.

For the uploading part, Didn't think this forum can handle such large files and posting very short clips may not do justice to the video.
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  #7  
02-22-2019, 02:21 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Ok, let me make some clarifications here. The first sample is from BM MediaExpress is indeed 10bit YUV probably should have used 8bit, ....

The second sample is VertDub 2, The only setting for HuffYUV available and was the only option I could capture, I get an error message for other codecs, Probable should have used legacy VDub with classic plugins.
read your video properties
Both samples are RGB24. Out of range YUV data is clipped or crushed in RGB. It can't be recovered. Surely a "professional' product guide would be telling you this.
The MPEG capture had out of spec levels, too. I guess proper levels work is beyond the ken of BM 's entry-level target audience.

However, thank you for the additional information. It explains much.
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  #8  
02-22-2019, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Maybe I've seen too much bad video lately.
With VHS, honestly, that's most of what I see. In my free time, I watch 720p or sub-720p streaming, still greater than 480i, from commercial/professional sources (cameras, color work, etc). I see Punisher on Netflix, or The Big Bang Theory from CBS, and quality is spectacular. I see a VHS tape, even S-VHS tape, and it's subpar. But I remember when my S-VHS recordings were amazing quality. People ar already snobbish about 720p, insisting that it's 1080 or 4K or even 8K or bust.

It's just perspective.

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  #9  
02-22-2019, 07:00 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Both samples are RGB24. Out of range YUV data is clipped or crushed in RGB. It can't be recovered. Surely a "professional' product guide would be telling you this.
The MPEG capture had out of spec levels, too. I guess proper levels work is beyond the ken of BM 's entry-level target audience.

However, thank you for the additional information. It explains much.
The video source quality is what it is I can't change that, It's called VHS not 4K HDR, Home videos look worse. As to the RGB thing, I don't know if you had a bad dream or something, I don't see RGB on my end, From the capture application to MediaInfo to VLC player, They all say it's YUV.







Attached Images
File Type: jpg setting.jpg (42.9 KB, 64 downloads)
File Type: jpg media info.jpg (118.2 KB, 63 downloads)
File Type: jpg file info.jpg (71.3 KB, 62 downloads)
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  #10  
02-22-2019, 07:29 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Oh I see what happened, I used Vdub to make small sample assuming that it will not change the video parameters but it did. That's another reason to stay away from Vdub and its problems.
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  #11  
02-22-2019, 08:05 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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No, the problem isn't VDub
VirtuaLDub saves to RGB32 by default. If you want to save the original colorspace, use "Direct stream copy" processing mode. This doesn't change the fact that you used zero signal input level control

Last edited by lordsmurf; 02-23-2019 at 06:05 AM. Reason: Be nice!
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  #12  
02-22-2019, 09:49 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I know, I have nothing against Vdub I'm just not a fan of it, Never had a capture without audio sync problems and never will and I'm not going to spend countless hours trying to go thru the learning curve, I'm happy that I finally discovered BlackMagic's media express, It took me less than a minute to start using it. Did a 1h 40min long lossless capture and the last minute had a perfect lip sync.
Now I got 4 S-VHS studio tapes from Country Images to transfer, Seems like they were dubbed from Betacam SP over to S-VHS, I see a lot of artifacts.
I captured a small sample here.
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  #13  
02-22-2019, 10:15 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
It took me less than a minute to start using it.
I've had perfect sync with VirtualDub since 2002 with over 500 hours of tapes.

Last edited by lordsmurf; 02-23-2019 at 06:05 AM. Reason: Be nice!
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  #14  
02-23-2019, 12:49 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
..
Im using Media Express
it's a perfect YUV 4:2:2 Lossless capture with no compression any imperfections in the video are source related.

Last edited by lordsmurf; 02-23-2019 at 06:07 AM. Reason: Be nice!
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  #15  
02-23-2019, 06:18 AM
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Thread cleaned, unnecessary comments removed. Be nice!

Now then, as referee:
- the BrightEye is not great as TBC, and not from being composite only
- it is cheap, a budget solution, and if it works for you, great -- but again, nothing I'd ever suggest
- I do find threads like this to be valuable, so showcase abilities, and for that user, and his/her sources
- VHS is VHS, there are color/IRE/etc issues in these samples, but again finding why/where it is requires troubleshooting that's not been done in this thread
- also not a fan of Blackmagic cards for SD, too many known issues
- some oddities in resolution
- 10-bit is overkill, just bloats filesize, but it can be done if you insist. Better more than less, I guess.
- is the 7600AM PAL or NTSC? I forget offhand
- as policy, Site Staff doesn't download from MediaFire, too many historical issues with JS ad-based malwares

Thanks for making the thread, and thanks to you both for posting.
But behave, and post samples to threads.

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  #16  
02-23-2019, 01:55 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
the BrightEye is not great as TBC, and not from being composite only
- it is cheap, a budget solution, and if it works for you, great -- but again, nothing I'd ever suggest
- I do find threads like this to be valuable, so showcase abilities, and for that user, and his/her sources
- VHS is VHS, there are color/IRE/etc issues in these samples, but again finding why/where it is requires troubleshooting that's not been done in this thread
- also not a fan of Blackmagic cards for SD, too many known issues
- some oddities in resolution
- 10-bit is overkill, just bloats filesize, but it can be done if you insist. Better more than less, I guess.
- is the 7600AM PAL or NTSC? I forget offhand
- as policy, Site Staff doesn't download from MediaFire, too many historical issues with JS ad-based malwares

Thanks for making the thread, and thanks to you both for posting.
But behave, and post samples to threads.
Thanks Lordsmurf for cleaning up the mess.

- The BE75 is a composite / S-Video(YC) / RGB / PrPb(SMPTE) / PrPb(Beta). Its TBC performed better than my AVT black box, and overall for the same tapes I got more playback stability than I did before with USB devices and the VMC-1 DV capture that supposed to have frame TBC.

- BlackMagic I have is just an SDI grabber, It doesn't do anything to the video other than transferring it to computer, The capture and conversion is done by BE75. I know the BM captures devices you are talking about and their problems.

- I will have to contact BlackMagic and Ensemble Designs about the 720x486, It's either in BM software or the BE75 is generating it.

- Yes 10bit is overkill, I'm capturing 8bit now.

- The JVC HR-S7600AM is a dual engine 525/625, It plays back and records NTSC and PAL in their native standard with no conversion. It has PAL60 as extra feature for middle eastern countries to playback NTSC tapes on a PAL TV, I don't need that feature.

- I only use MediaFire for files over 99MB which is the site limit.
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  #17  
02-23-2019, 03:37 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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I suspect 486 lines comes from SMPTE 259M-C for NTSC. one of the defined SDI output streams.
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  #18  
02-23-2019, 08:23 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
I suspect 486 lines comes from SMPTE 259M-C for NTSC. one of the defined SDI output streams.
It could well possibly be. I looked at the manual of the BE75 and could see a mention of such resolution.

You're right, Here.
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  #19  
02-24-2019, 08:25 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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At its nominal price point of $1378 (at B&H), and with SDI output, the Bright Eye 75 is hardly an item targeted to the consumer market.

I think one of the rubs, and reasons that Black Magic Designs capture products are generally out of favor is that they tend to be fussy about the input signal. They do not well tolerate the wide variations found in VHS output. They expect a good solid signal that is compliant with NTSC (or PAL) standards, and if the signal is a bit too far off they don't like it. In contrast much of the gear favored here can better cope with the variations.

Another issue with much gear is proper configuration, especially setup/pedestal, to ensure black levels are captured properly, and highlights are not blown. A waveform monitor and vector scope in the analog path helps.

(Also, some BM gear such as the Intensity Pro 4K has problems with SD component inputs, but at least those sources are rare. It performs better with S-VIDEO input )
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  #20  
02-24-2019, 02:39 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I agree on BM products, However the particular device I have is not an analog capture device, It just passes SDI to the computer, As a result the picture is always displayed in the capture application even if the frame is jumping or lost completely due to for example a chewed up magnetic tape, You can't get that displayed with consumer single capture devices.

Yes they are geared up for professional video quality but if you want to still capture the messy consumer video they will allow you to do so but you have to deal with the problems associated with it, That's a choice you have to make whether you have this type of equipment or consumer type equipment, Nothing can reverse a damaged analog video. Garbage in garbage out they say, You can do some improvement in software but that's about it.

Anyway, I captured a full tape and I'm doing the conversion to MP4 using this commend while cropping off the extra 6 lines:

ffmpeg -i Input.avi -filter:v "crop=720:480:0:0" -aspect 4:3 -b:a 192k Output.mp4

Should I be concerned about de-interlacing or just leave it alone and the players have to deal with that? De-interlacing is a slippery slope and I don't want to attempt to go through it.
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