Quantcast Pinnacle MovieBox freezing with VirtualDub capturing? - digitalFAQ Forum
Go Back    Forum > Digital Video > Video Project Help > Capture, Record, Transfer

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
03-13-2019, 11:35 AM
ofesad ofesad is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Cordoba, Argentina
Posts: 40
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Hello to all!

First let me clarify: I never used VirtualDub before.

Since I have my capture Windows XP PC (AMD Athlon X2, 2Gb Ram DDR2, Ati AIW X800) I always had issues with VirtualDub.
Mostly because the bloody thing keeps freezing randomly and the preview won't appear everytime... in fact will appear and dissapear everytime I click on a different option/menu.


The ATI MMC works (almost) perfectly.

Today I got another capture card, a Pinnacle MovieBox Deluxe (510 usb), because it was cheap and I was looking for something to capture DV via USB on my windows 10 notebook (Ryzen 5 2500u, 12gb Ram DDR4, 2Tb HDD, Radeon 570X 4Gb).

However, same problem happens.

(Note: for the Pinnacle MovieBox to work on Virtualdub, I use the Crossbar Thing that our dear old blue guy recommended [yes, I mean LordSmurf]).

The most annoying thing it's that after freezing the VirtualDub will not close unless:
a) unplug the pinnacle usb, but if I try to capture again, it won't work
b) reboot the pc or the nootebook. (in case of the desktop, I am forced to reboot).

In comparison, always using the original software provided for the capture hardware (MMC or Pinnacle Studio) seems to work flawlessly every time and perform a capture without issues.
(Ok, the MMC has some issues, but now doesn't really matter, sometimes it just works).

Let be clear: I can capture sometimes with VirtualDub. Altought it takes a while until configure and get's to work. Compared to the original software of the capture card (MMC or Pinnacle) it's really slow.


The Questions:

Am I doing something wrong? Did I miss a step?.

Is Virtualdub as buggy to you as is to me?

Do your preview works flawlessly?

I was thinking that the issues might be related to capturing PAL tapes but I don't know. (I did configure VirtualDub, properly, I think...)

Any other had issues with PAL signals on VirtualDub?

Any other software I should try? (I already try'd OBS with the Pinnacle, also works fine)

Should I just surrender and forget about it?

Is this real life?
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
03-13-2019, 11:41 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,003
Thanked 1,273 Times in 1,127 Posts
Under the VirtualDub preference (not in capture mode) disable DirectX. I often have to do this.

Another option is your XP system is dirty, simply needs fresh install.
Or that the capture is defective.
Both are possible.

I have no issues (with this, at least).

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
03-13-2019, 12:20 PM
jwillis84's Avatar
jwillis84 jwillis84 is online now
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: College Station, TX
Posts: 321
Thanked 47 Times in 42 Posts
The quality of the DirectX graph supporting the capture 'underneath' the application makes a big difference.

Usually the manufacturer of the device knows how to eak out the best performance for their device.

VirtualDub uses a graph that is pretty minimal and usually does a good job (if) you avoid turning on many extra things and plugins. Audio preview is bad for capture performance and can cause frame drops or other problems. Live volume meters, timing charts.. or complex compression choices for audio or video performed "at the time of capture" can tank a good capture.

Its very hard on Win10 to "look under the hood" and see exactly what is turned on and could be causing you problems.

On XP this was "easy" and wide open and you simply started GraphEdit and selected the "peak" feature to see what another program was up to.. Win10 banned that and the only way around (was) to disable driver signing and "shim in" a device driver that could "spy" on other programs.. but they killed that feature permenantly last year by declaring it "spyware/malware" and requiring all drivers "must" be signed by Microsoft... its DRM "shimmed into" the OS.. no one is allowed to look at any other programs behavior anymore.

The best you can do is to not perform (any) compression on audio or video and save to .AVI raw.. or something low compression like lagarith or huffyuv. And turn off as many extra "gadgets" in VirtualDub as you can.

Except for that.. you can start GraphEdit and "build" your own capture tool by hand using the filters available and send the output to a disk file. That gives you the ultimate control.. but its a little like programming.. so most people don't do it.

There aren't a lot of basic, minimalist.. high performance video capture apps.. VirtualDub comes closest.. but you have to be careful and either disable, or not turn on all the bells and whistles.

OBS on Win10 is probably a good option. Mostly because it works only with Vista and above.. it was written with DirectX10 in mind, and it will not run on XP or anything with DirectX9 or lower. It is overhwelming however and was also designed more for broadcast streaming and game capture.. so 'bending it' to your need is a little challenging.

Microsoft Expression Encoder 4 (might) be another option.. it was the follow up to Windows Media Encoder.. and it could be said its the closet thing (like) VirtualDub on the DirectX9 or the XP platform.. but like OBS it was targeted at creating media streams and desktop capture (games.. who plays games?.. said Microsoft.. lol).. so getting EE4 to save to disk can be an aggravating 'game' itself.

Personally.. I've given up using Pinnacle boxes with their native applications, or VirtualDub.. I use GraphEdit on XP to "peak" at the native applications DirectX9 graphs, then (save) those Graphs to files.. as an example of "best practice" and then start them up after closing their original applications and use those to get work done. This is a (a lot) of work.. and not for everyone.. there are easier capture devices to use.

Last edited by jwillis84; 03-13-2019 at 12:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
03-13-2019, 12:47 PM
ofesad ofesad is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Cordoba, Argentina
Posts: 40
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Under the VirtualDub preference (not in capture mode) disable DirectX. I often have to do this.

Another option is your XP system is dirty, simply needs fresh install.
Or that the capture is defective.
Both are possible.

I have no issues (with this, at least).
The XP system is a fresh install. Originally that PC had Windows 7, formated and installed XP so I can use it with the Ati AIW X800.
Windows XP , the Ati Drivers and software, virtualdub and that's it has.
It doesn't even have Office installed.

Will check this one later.

[UPDATE]

After disabling DirectX on the virtualdub of the notebook (pinnacle), now seems to do the job a lot better!

[UPDATE2]

Closed virtualDub (I installed Lagarith while it was opened).
Open virtualDub again.

BTW: Silly question: Should I keep CrossBar Thing opened at all times? or I can configure it as I want and close it?

Press Play on the VCR.

Black image, no sound.

Changed the preview to Preview... Same.

Changed back to Overlay... frozen.

Closed VirtualDub with taskmanager.

Stoped the VCR.

Open VirtualDub again.

Changed Overlay to Preview.

Press Play on the VCR.

Black image, no sound. VirtualDub frozen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
The quality of the DirectX graph supporting the capture 'underneath' the application makes a big difference.

Usually the manufacturer of the device knows how to eak out the best performance for their device.

VirtualDub uses a graph that is pretty minimal and usually does a good job (if) you avoid turning on many extra things and plugins. Audio preview is bad for capture performance and can cause frame drops or other problems. Live volume meters, timing charts.. or complex compression choices for audio or video performed "at the time of capture" can tank a good capture.

Actually I try'd capturing disabling DirectX, enabled audio playback, plus cropping, noise reduction and deinterlace filter. It worked like a charm. Sure, it had some lags or stutter on the playback, but was really minor. I watch it in real time perfectly.


[UPDATE]
After reviewing the captured files, the ones with filters or noise reduction had issues with the sound:
At some parts the audio will speed up slightly (not exactly out of sync, slight pitch change)

If someone else is reading: don't be like me. Read the Capture Settings for VirtualDub


Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
The best you can do is to not perform (any) compression on audio or video and save to .AVI raw.. or something low compression like lagarith or huffyuv. And turn off as many extra "gadgets" in VirtualDub as you can.
Totally agree. The only issue I have with huffyuv is that for 1min video is over 1gb file.

Last edited by ofesad; 03-13-2019 at 01:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
03-13-2019, 12:54 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,003
Thanked 1,273 Times in 1,127 Posts
Quote:
(I installed Lagarith while it was opened).
Mistake.
Reboot.
Reinstall.

Huffyuv is better for capture.

Huffyuv = ~35gb/hour
Lagarith = ~25gb/hour + more CPU used

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
03-13-2019, 02:22 PM
jwillis84's Avatar
jwillis84 jwillis84 is online now
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: College Station, TX
Posts: 321
Thanked 47 Times in 42 Posts
I totally agree huffyuv is best, its the least power hungry for CPU time, if you need to conserve space while capturing.. it might even be better if your hard disk can't keep up.

Thats another thing.

Do not try to capture to the same hard disk as the OS, and the swap files.

Be (sure) to disable swap file usage on the hard disk where you will save the video.

When capturing.. you have to (forget) trying to save space.. video capturing is not for "making DVDs" or "finished product".. its sole purpose is to capture video and audio in as good a quality as possible.

(After) you've landed the "big fish" you can then get to work "editing", "correcting", "compressing" it.. you can't do all that at the same time.. it has simply never worked.

If Broadcast studios can't edit, correct, and compress "on-the-fly".. why on earth would one think they could do better with a $20 dollar dongle? It simply isn't going to happen.

If that is the kind of work flow you want.. the DVD recorder might be a better path.. but that has less control over the final product.. its generally one-shot and done.. if you "miss" you may not get a second shot.. especially if the tape crumbles to dust shortly there after.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
03-13-2019, 02:28 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,003
Thanked 1,273 Times in 1,127 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
Do not try to capture to the same hard disk as the OS, and the swap files..
This is a good general rule that should almost always be followed.

But I've actually made a few systems, where capture is done to the same drive. The key here is to make the system run lean, and set the paging file to not expand/contract at will. But it is also very hardware dependent. More than half of my attempts at capturing to the OS drive fail, because something does not cooperate. My 2nd ATI AIW PCI capture setup is using more modern hardware, and the only place that I attempt it. Never on an AGP setup, and I just do not like the PCIe cards anymore. With USB, you have some more options, but each new OS adds new issues that prevents it. If you have space and funds, trying to make the OS drive = the capture dive is a waste of time and effort.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
03-13-2019, 02:42 PM
ofesad ofesad is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Cordoba, Argentina
Posts: 40
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
I totally agree huffyuv is best, its the least power hungry for CPU time, if you need to conserve space while capturing.. it might even be better if your hard disk can't keep up.

Thats another thing.

Do not try to capture to the same hard disk as the OS, and the swap files.

Be (sure) to disable swap file usage on the hard disk where you will save the video.

When capturing.. you have to (forget) trying to save space.. video capturing is not for "making DVDs" or "finished product".. its sole purpose is to capture video and audio in as good a quality as possible.

(After) you've landed the "big fish" you can then get to work "editing", "correcting", "compressing" it.. you can't do all that at the same time.. it has simply never worked.

If Broadcast studios can't edit, correct, and compress "on-the-fly".. why on earth would one think they could do better with a $20 dollar dongle? It simply isn't going to happen.

If that is the kind of work flow you want.. the DVD recorder might be a better path.. but that has less control over the final product.. its generally one-shot and done.. if you "miss" you may not get a second shot.. especially if the tape crumbles to dust shortly there after.
No no, nothing "on-the-fly". Just hoped for adding some filters could be apply'd to save time. However I see now I have to treat this as I treat my photos. Keep Raws and edits in separate files.

When you mean the same drive you mean the same partition or the same physical hard drive?

I see no one talks about USB storage, probably not an option for such large files.
But what about NAS storage over gigalan ethernet?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
03-13-2019, 03:28 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,003
Thanked 1,273 Times in 1,127 Posts
Same physical hard drive.

USB goes through CPU, and is not sustained write speed. So no, don't use USB for capture. It will drop frames.

Never try to capture to non-local drives.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
03-13-2019, 05:33 PM
jwillis84's Avatar
jwillis84 jwillis84 is online now
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: College Station, TX
Posts: 321
Thanked 47 Times in 42 Posts
Hard drives work best when they aren't sharing the same bus as the capture card

So diggin into "the weeds" here..

A USB hard drive is like a massive heart attack to most CPUs.. few USB host controllers leave the CPU alone.. they are cheap and best left dedicated to one task like video capture devices. Once the capture "is over" you can copy the files to a USB drive.. but it will take forever and two weeks plus.. USB is simply too low bandwidth.. even USB 3.0 is barely tolerable.

The (older) attached storage buses like firewire (IEEE1394) or eSATA were definitely much better for quick connect and disconnect storage.. or one of those cheap startech tool less drive docks.. though I like the better Icy Dock options. Icy Dock has two lines.. one cheap plastic anyone can afford.. and the rugged solid metal docks that fit in a 5.25 inch drive bay. Those drive docks are a solid SATA connector and are much better than the paper weight docks with no hard drive cooling on the desktop.

NASes are fundamentally an order of magnitude "slower" than even USB3.0 unless you look into 10 Gig.. you always have to divide network speeds by x10 to get the equivalent speed of any comparable attached storage.

Thunderbolt 3 at possible 40 Gbps is passable.. but who has the money for that? And its still a little new.. so options and proven performance will take a while to stabilize.

Going plain old SATA is just simple.. its the fastest you can get.. and the drive becomes the portable media. If you feel the need to duplicate it.. startech has those desktop (one button) drive duplicators.. which also have a USB 3.0 port to attach to a PC if you like.

Your absolutely right about keeping like your Raws and Edits seperate. There are two categories of hobbyists here.. the Semi-Pros and the Casual-Consumer.. capture devices are for Semi-Pros.. and DVRs are for the Casual-Consumer. But once a Casual Consumer sees what a Pro can achieve they often decide to up their game. (or) they absolutely need the triage a Pro can achieve to obtain anything at all from such a poor source.

But.. back to the topic

If your capture card is on the AGP bus, that's very good.. it means it will be seperate from the PCI bus which your hard drives are attached to. AGP was invented specifically because the PCI bus was already so busy with the hard drive, that to improve graphics performance it was spun out onto a seperate bus. The PCI bus can engage in things like DMA transfer mode with the disk where the drive and a device like a capture card can by-pass the CPU freeing up even more resources and preventing dropped frames.. that doesn't mean you should insert filters to tweak and compress.. its just too risky.. there might be suboptimal bits of code in the filters.. or bugs. The best practice is perform the capture and then do post processing and edits later.

Huffyuv is so old and revered at this point its a well trusted filter for saving a good deal of space while capturing.. so its worth the risk.. and it can speed up interactions with the video in post.. simply because the data stream is reduced in size.. its the only filter to try.

If you have no other choices though, a "good" USB capture device works fine.. just don't connect it through a HUB or attach external USB storage to the same HUB thinking you can make that work.

Lordsmurf is totally correct in the USB will stop and stutter and interrupt itself all the time.. it will drop frames, if you try use it for more than one thing at a time.

The general rule to never use non-local, non-internal drives.. is a good rule to live by.. externally attached storage is vulnerable to being knocked over, yanked out.. or overheating because of lack of adequate cooling.. or the errant house cat sitting on it.

For the long periods your likely to be capturing its far better to have a mobile dock for an ejectable hard drive, or a permenantly installed drive to capture video. A small desktop dock is just not reasonable.

Last edited by jwillis84; 03-13-2019 at 06:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
03-13-2019, 09:05 PM
ofesad ofesad is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Cordoba, Argentina
Posts: 40
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
After further testing most video and capture issues are resolved. Sometimes Virtualdub freezes but very rarely.

However I now have issues with the sound captured.

Tested it using my Sony SLV-L86HF and Panasonic AG4700. Same VHS, very little use.

First the AG4700 with internal TBC ON, at the begining of the tape it's like speeding and then normalizes a bit. After that it has some issues again. One is from the tape (the sony does it too) but the others are artificial.

Then the Sony, the sound issues are less, much less. Still are there but it's like they were cut or solved somehow. This VCR has APC (Adaptive Picture Control), I haven't found a specific document regarding that technology, but seems to be some sort of frame synchronizer.

Back to the Panasonic, but now with the TBC OFF. It sounds better and more natural!.

At this point I am not entirely sure if it could be something related to the Pinnacle capture card, the PC, or the decks.

Could some bad cap on the TBC circuit be causing it to mal function?

If you guys want, I can upload just audios or a compressed video showing all three.

Probably LordSmurf will remindme to buy a proper TBC after this post...

UPDATE:

I discovered something regarding the sound sync. Seems to be the internal TBC.

Also discovered that the other's TBC's I have (from the other two AG4700) one is foobar and the other seems to work perfectly.

I posted about'em in my AG4700 Restoration Thread so we can keep talking about software here.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
03-14-2019, 09:03 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 307
Thanked 84 Times in 70 Posts
I would suggest trying to capture from a source you know is stable and working, like a DVD-player or an old graphics card with analog outputs. In that way you can eliminate any issues stemming from the VCRs. If it works with the bundled software it sounds more like some software issue though. Maybe amarectv would work?

Quote:
This VCR has APC (Adaptive Picture Control), I haven't found a specific document regarding that technology, but seems to be some sort of frame synchronizer.
It's much less complex than that. I'm not completely sure, but from what I can glean from the service manual I think what it does is alter the deemphasis or does some EQ on the video signal, and possibly also the analog noise reduction. It's bit like an equalizer for audio, or an automatic sharpness control. It's a pretty common feature in newer VHS decks, different manufactures use different names for it.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
03-17-2019, 12:40 AM
ofesad ofesad is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Cordoba, Argentina
Posts: 40
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
After several hours going back and foward with the Pinnacle and the Ati AIW X800, also finding out some things I didn't know about the Panasonic AG4700, like the AI function:

Quote:
AI:
ON: Using the AI function, recording and playback are performed in the state which achieves optimum picture quality in light of characteristics of a tape.

The picture Sharpness cannot be adjusted in this seting.
In another post related to the HS1000, Quasipal recommended not use it.


Going back to the sound issue, it's quite rare... I tend to believe that's something to do with the Pinnacle capture.
I just made a fresh capture with it an not a problem. Guess that would be something related to the fact it uses USB.

Of course, it's not all Pinnacle's fault: I was using the notebook while capturing, so...


For comparing results here are exactly the same capture made with the ATI x800 and the other with the Pinnacle.

Would never expect such different results.

This is RAW material, no filters whatsoever.
Code:
AG4700 settings:
TBC  ON
AI  OFF
PICTURE (SHARPNESS) at MIDDLE POSITION
16:9  AUTO
HI-FI/NORMAL MIX  ON

LEFT: ATI AIW X800 / RIGHT: PINNACLE MOVIEBOX 510


ATI AIW X800 - AG4700 TBC ON - AI OFF (HUFFYUV) (940MB)


PINNACLE CAPTURE - AG4700 - TBC ON - AI OFF (HUFFYUV) (856MB)


Attached Images
File Type: png ATI VS PINNACLE.PNG (14.1 KB, 19 downloads)

Last edited by ofesad; 03-17-2019 at 01:15 AM.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank ofesad for this useful post: lordsmurf (03-17-2019)
  #14  
03-17-2019, 11:53 AM
jwillis84's Avatar
jwillis84 jwillis84 is online now
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: College Station, TX
Posts: 321
Thanked 47 Times in 42 Posts
looks like unreported dropped frames using the Pinnacle to me.. but its only a guess

Last edited by jwillis84; 03-17-2019 at 12:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
03-17-2019, 03:44 PM
ofesad ofesad is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Cordoba, Argentina
Posts: 40
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
looks like unreported dropped frames using the Pinnacle to me.. but its only a guess
Uppon further testing, I try'd the Pinnacle on my main editing pc, obtaining similar results, but look at the Bitrate between the PC and Notebook capture with the Pinnacle, there's a 1.15% increase!

For comparison here are the original RAW files from the ATI X800 vs the Pinnacle connected to my main pc:

(that's raw and uncut material)

After cut (uncompressed)


VirtualDub file info



And after saving the Raw with compression with Huffyuv


VirtualDub file info


Attached Images
File Type: jpg pc1.JPG (65.6 KB, 8 downloads)
File Type: jpg capturadora vs notebook vs pc.jpg (49.8 KB, 8 downloads)
File Type: jpg huffyuv cut comparision.jpg (50.1 KB, 8 downloads)
File Type: jpg huffyuv_cut_compare_pcs_notebook_virtualdub_info.jpg (56.0 KB, 8 downloads)
File Type: jpg raw_cut_compare_pcs_notebook_virtualdub_info.jpg (47.4 KB, 8 downloads)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
03-17-2019, 04:15 PM
jwillis84's Avatar
jwillis84 jwillis84 is online now
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: College Station, TX
Posts: 321
Thanked 47 Times in 42 Posts
Pinnacle PC has fewer key frames than Pinnacle Notebook

Possibly a bad/poor USB host port.. or USB device driver.. that is dropping packets.

I would document the precise brand/maker of the chipset for the USB port in each and investigate who wrote the device drivers.. the hardware maker or the generic microsoft (out of box) stand ins for the hardware makers driver to be released later.

It could even be the USB cable.. there are a lot of variables with external boxes.. and the USB port provides "power" to the device.. or not.. depending on how good the power supply is, and the USB port chipset is at delivering that power to the USB device. Things like corrosion and dusty or peanut butter finger prints inside the USB port.. do matter.

.. mmm.. not too many Peanut Butter disasters on AGP ports though
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mini DV capture using Pinnacle Studio Moviebox in Windows 8? StickManMax Capture, Record, Transfer 6 06-20-2015 09:42 AM
ATI MMC vs. VirtualDub, Huffyuv? Pinnacle vs ATI? SinghDk Capture, Record, Transfer 11 05-02-2015 04:07 AM
VHS to computer - use Pinnacle Moviebox or go with ATI card? SinghDk Capture, Record, Transfer 16 02-17-2015 09:10 AM
For Sale: Pinnacle Studio movieBox Plus USB capture card, new in box lordsmurf Marketplace 1 07-26-2012 12:48 PM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:16 AM