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  #41  
05-29-2019, 08:49 PM
DevonT DevonT is offline
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Hi guys. It's been a minute since I posted here. I started my seasonal job again and now I can afford a little bit more than before. I'm going to try and get the Panasonic DMR-ES15. I still haven't been able to determine here, what kind of TBC would be best for my needs.

Like I've said before, I'd be glad to provide sample videos and pictures. I want to know what kind of TBC you guys would suggest and why. I still don't know the difference between the two main types of TBCs (line and frame).

If anyone can help me, that'd be greatly appreciated. I don't mind PMs either. That's fine.

Last edited by DevonT; 05-29-2019 at 08:51 PM. Reason: Added more writing.
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  #42  
05-29-2019, 09:05 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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"Frame" grabs entire video frame, boogers and all. Corrections are frame-to-frame (interframe). Thus it fixes the signal, not visual.

"Line" corrects line-by-line (intraframe). Thus it fixes the visuals, not the signal.

You may have timing issues that affects frames, and need frame sync TBC. But your bigger issues is frame level problems. And those issues you have are too bad for a S-VHS VCR line TBC. So you need the ES10/15 for it's TBC(ish) line filtering, as it's strong. This is why most of us own the ES10/15, anti-tearing. For you, it's not an optional item. Your tapes suck in a way that necessitates it.

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  #43  
05-29-2019, 09:59 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonT View Post
Hi guys. It's been a minute since I posted here. I started my seasonal job again and now I can afford a little bit more than before. I'm going to try and get the Panasonic DMR-ES15. I still haven't been able to determine here, what kind of TBC would be best for my needs.

Like I've said before, I'd be glad to provide sample videos and pictures. I want to know what kind of TBC you guys would suggest and why. I still don't know the difference between the two main types of TBCs (line and frame).

If anyone can help me, that'd be greatly appreciated. I don't mind PMs either. That's fine.
After all the explanations, pictures, videos, and visuals, if you don't know the differences now, you never will. Trust the laws of physics: you need both types. The ES10 and ES15 have both types built-in. Use an ES10 or ES15 as a pass-thru line-and-frame tbc. Connect the VCR to the ES10 or ES15 line input, connect the ES10 or ES15 s-video output to the S-video input of your capture device.

Samples are an essential tool. Don't post to Youtube (We're interested in your video problems, not in YouTube's destructive processing). Don't re-encode your capture samples. Here is a post about making lossless samples: How to create a short sample in VirtualDub from a lossless AVI capture.

Forum projects aren't conducted in PM. "PM " means "Personal Mail". Your personal mail is your personal business. The forum exists so that tech information can be submitted and shared by all members, which ain't possible in PM.
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  #44  
05-30-2019, 08:17 PM
DevonT DevonT is offline
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
You may have timing issues that affects frames, and need frame sync TBC. But your bigger issues is frame level problems. And those issues you have are too bad for a S-VHS VCR line TBC.
That part I do know. My VCR only does quasi-SVHS playback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
So you need the ES10/15 for it's TBC(ish) line filtering, as it's strong. This is why most of us own the ES10/15, anti-tearing. For you, it's not an optional item. Your tapes suck in a way that necessitates it.
Oh yeah, I realize they're bad. I know there's people in my local area that do video restoration, but for me, I just want the frame jumps to be gone. I don't care about restoring any color, detail, or sound to the tape. My brother in-law is happy with the way the tape plays on TV, so that is my primary goal. The capture card plays the footage back exactly the way it is on TV, with the exception of the time base issues that throws it off.
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  #45  
05-31-2019, 01:47 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonT View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
You may have timing issues that affects frames, and need frame sync TBC. But your bigger issues is frame level problems. And those issues you have are too bad for a S-VHS VCR line TBC.
That part I do know. My VCR only does quasi-SVHS playback.
VHS, S-VHS or quasi-SVHS has nothing to do with it. The comment refers to the type of line tbc that comes with high end SVHS players. Lordsmurf is saying that the type of tbc that comes with those players isn't powerful enough for your tape problems. You need more powerful line and frame tbc's, both of which come inside the ES10 and ES15. Whether the tape is VHS or SVHS doesn't matter. The distorted and bent images require a line tbc. The frame jumps and freezing require a frame-level tbc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonT View Post
I don't care about restoring any color, detail, or sound to the tape. My brother in-law is happy with the way the tape plays on TV
. Yeah, we know. There's a lot of bad taste and ugly video out there. It's depressing.
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  #46  
05-31-2019, 02:35 AM
DevonT DevonT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
After all the explanations, pictures, videos, and visuals, if you don't know the differences now, you never will.
Well then I guess I'll never know 🤷

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Trust the laws of physics: you need both types.
It's not the laws of physics that's confusing me 🤦 What I don't understand is the difference between “signal” and “visual,” the difference between a frame TBC and a frame sync. I thought I knew the difference between a line TBC and a frame TBC when I watched that video titled How Video Tape Gets Messed Up. But according to Lordsmurf, I didn't. From my limited understanding, it seems to me that I would benefit more from a frame TBC, because it fixes frame-level issues. Since the issues I have in the sample videos I've provided show that the time base errors make the frames jump and flicker, I would tend to believe that a frame TBC would help stabilize the footage. My guess is that a line TBC is for more miniscule time base errors. But for me, I only want to fix the frame issues. That's my #1 priority. I've once again attached the sample video showing how the frames flicker during playback when I have the VCR directly connected to the capture card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The ES10 and ES15 have both types built-in.
Oh okay. I was under the impression according to Lordsmurf that these machines only perform TBC(ish) functions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Samples are an essential tool. Don't post to Youtube (We're interested in your video problems, not in YouTube's destructive processing).
None of my videos are posted to YouTube. WWE is strict about any of their content being on YouTube. And since my network speed is too slow to upload videos directly to this site, I have to find alternative places to upload the videos. That is why I use Streamable, because (most of the time) it doesn't time out if the video takes a little longer to upload. Depending on the time of the month and how much data I have, I may be able to tether my phone's LTE connection so I can upload videos to this site.

Besides, my main reason for uploading the samples just to show you guys the frame issues that I see. I'm not particularly worried about the color or other details. I'm happy with the way it looks. The only difference between what I see on TV and the capture card output is the frame issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Don't re-encode your capture samples.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. I record the videos as MP4 in OBS and then upload them straight to the above-mentioned website. There's no other process in between that. The only video I had to re-edit was the one with the monitor. That's because people were getting distracted with the stuff around the video, so I cropped out the rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Here is a post about making lossless samples: How to create a short sample in VirtualDub from a lossless AVI capture.
As mentioned before, I've had trouble with programs like VirtualDub or VirtualVCR. I've tried them before within recent months and one program doesn't like any capture card I use and the other just crashes every time I open it. I understand that OBS may not be a recommended program for lossless video output, but it has worked fine for me when I digitized my own VHS tapes. I also prefer OBS, because it has features that I like, such as:

• Built-in audio filters (e.g. Noise Suppression) and the ability to increase the audio volume past 100% for tapes that have really low volume
• The ability to manipulate the video size in case I want to crop out the left, right, top and/or bottom part of the frame (e.g. if the source has horizontal black bars)
• It has a built-in timer so I can start a recording and go to sleep without worrying that it'll keep recording, even when the tape is done.

It's 2 AM as I'm writing this, but tomorrow I'll try those programs again and follow the guide listed above. I'm also going to try and obtain myself a Panasonic ES15 and see if it will work for what I need. If/when I do get it, I will take sample videos of it.


Attached Files
File Type: mp4 02 - Straight copy.mp4 (16.89 MB, 4 downloads)
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  #47  
06-01-2019, 12:20 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
"PM " means
PM = private message

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The ES10 and ES15 have both types built-in. Use an ES10 or ES15 as a pass-thru line-and-frame tbc.
Not quite. The ES10/15 contains a "frame sync", which is not the same as "frame sync time base corrector" (ala the AVT-8710, TBC-1000, and some others). Most DVD recorders must contain frame sync, which most being weak miserable little nothings. The ES10/15 units also benefit from some sort of variation of line TBC, which is very aggressive, to the point of correcting tearing. But noting that it is NOT entirely the same as the JVC/Panasonic line VCR TBCs. Also the ES10/15 line correction is seemingly married to sort of DNR circuitry like the JVC S-VHS VCRs, which explains the posterizing effect (lesser with NR off, aggressive with NR on).

The ES10/15 are very heavy-handed, but it have unique advantages because of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonT View Post
My guess is that a line TBC is for more miniscule time base errors.
One of your main confusions lies in the assumption that "frame" is stronger than "line". That's not the case. You have both weak and strong external frame TBCs (or more accurate, "frame sync TBCs"), and weak and strong line TBCs.

Quote:
Oh okay. I was under the impression according to Lordsmurf that these machines only perform TBC(ish) functions.
They are TBC(ish) in the sense that they're not true TBCs. There most obvious flaw is the fact that it has holes bored into it, to allow for anti-copy. True TBCs would either react differently, or entirely remove, the false error known as anti-copy (Macrovision, etc).

Quote:
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. I record the videos as MP4 in OBS and then upload them straight to the above-mentioned website. There's no other process in between that.
OBS may be adding errors to the video, issues you may not have in VirtualDub. OBS is a stream software that can kinda/sorta capture. It's not capturing software.

Quote:
As mentioned before, I've had trouble with programs like VirtualDub or VirtualVCR. I've tried them before within recent months and one program doesn't like any capture card I use and the other just crashes every time I open it.
What card(s) are you trying to use?
What OS?
Perhaps some of this was already covered in the thread, or other threads, but I don't remember what everybody uses.

Quote:
• Built-in audio filters (e.g. Noise Suppression) and the ability to increase the audio volume past 100% for tapes that have really low volume
I've not tried these, but I highly doubt it is anything quality like what you'd find the the freeware Audacity. Yeah, sure, all-in-one, but all-in-ones take heavy shortcuts on quality.

Quote:
• The ability to manipulate the video size in case I want to crop out the left, right, top and/or bottom part of the frame (e.g. if the source has horizontal black bars)
This can also be done in VirtualDub, though such cleanup is best saved for post-capture processing.

Quote:
• It has a built-in timer so I can start a recording and go to sleep without worrying that it'll keep recording, even when the tape is done.
So does VirtualDub. See Stop Conditions.

Quote:
I'm also going to try and obtain myself a Panasonic ES15 and see if it will work for what I need. If/when I do get it, I will take sample videos of it.
Regardless of comprehending how/why, this really is the next step you need to take.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
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