Any experience with JVC SVHS/DVD recorder combo units?

[ChunkDaMan]

Hi, I recently made a post days ago about having issues with VirtualDub and dropped frames, obviously I'm not using a TBC because I don't have one at the moment.

My new method of transferring VHS to digital is to go PC-less because I only have a Win 10 high-performance laptop and I'll skip the PC method for now. I am wanting to use a JVC SVHS/DVD recorder combo w/ TBC built-in for capturing, then rip the DVD to digital and do my editing from there. From my research on DigitalFAQ and VideoHelp, I see that TBCs in these combo recorders aren't the best. My budget is strict for this project. My question to ask is does anyone have any experience using a JVC SVHS/DVD recorder combo (SR-MV30U, SR-MV40U. SR-MV45, SR-MV50U) for transferring? I'm looking for terms of if the TBC is actually good (I'm assuming it's a line TBC and not a full-frame, though I'm not capping straight to the PC this way). Do I need an external full-frame TBC for this machine as well? Also if the picture/sound quality is superb enough for a "professional" transfer? Although the JVC SR-MV models are considered professional, just want extra advice before making a purchase on eBay and ending up with the "wrong" model. Thanks.

EDIT: If I go this route, for DVDs, do you guys recommend using DVD+R, DVD-R, DVD+RW, DVD-RAM? I'm going for DVD+RW right now, but let me know what you think.

[traal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChunkDaMan

Do I need an external full-frame TBC for this machine as well?

If you get dropped frames during capture, then yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChunkDaMan

Also if the picture/sound quality is superb enough for a "professional" transfer?

No, capturing to DVD will lose color information and add compression artifacts compared to capturing to HuffYUV or similar.

[ChunkDaMan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by traal

No, capturing to DVD will lose color information and add compression artifacts compared to capturing to HuffYUV or similar.

Oh man, so you're telling me I have to go with a [Win 7] desktop PC for a good capture? What's the best way of capping that way? VCR > FF TBC > PC? Also what capture card would you recommend, ATI AIW? When I capped on VDub before, I used the UTVideo compression for recording and deinterlacing. If I go THIS route, then I'm definitely on the hunt for a separate TBC machine. Not sure if I'm going to need to link a line TBC and a FF TBC (according to my research here), IMO a FF TBC should just make the cut.

For the VCR itself, I guess if I get a JVC SVHS machine w/ TBC, that should work as my line TBC.

[lordsmurf]

Wait, slow down...
I need to make a long reply here...

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChunkDaMan

Oh man, so you're telling me I have to go with a [Win 7] desktop PC for a good capture? What's the best way of capping that way? VCR > FF TBC > PC? Also what capture card would you recommend, ATI AIW? When I capped on VDub before, I used the UTVideo compression for recording and deinterlacing. If I go THIS route, then I'm definitely on the hunt for a separate TBC machine. Not sure if I'm going to need to link a line TBC and a FF TBC (according to my research here), IMO a FF TBC should just make the cut.

For the VCR itself, I guess if I get a JVC SVHS machine w/ TBC, that should work as my line TBC.

The definite cure for audio sync problems is to install a "Line IN" audio card since you have a desktop, Connect your VCR's Line OUT to the card's Line IN with a RCA to 3.5mm cable and set Vdub's audio input to the newly installed audio card, I've captured with such setup on Win10 64bit with no problems. Try this first before you invest in an external TBC as they cost an arm and leg unless you have 3 arms and 3 legs so sacrificing one of each shouldn't be a problem.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...d&_stpos=94520

[ChunkDaMan]

I'm using a laptop at the moment but I do have one of those 3.5mm USB adapters, but I'm sure it's not as effective. I could go with this method but dropped frames are dropped frames, even if I have the audio complete. Feeding analog garbage in directly without some time base correction isn't going to be smooth, especially analog corruption from warped tape and such. The picture may look alright, but stabilizing that analog goodness I'm sure is a must.

My current setup is a Panasonic PV-9450 (and Panasonic PV-VS4820 for SVHS cassettes), a Startech.com SVID2USB23, and my HP OMEN 17. I'm looking for better and easier ways to capture b/c I'm trying to preserve commercials and content from recorded VHS and SVHS cassettes. My PV-VS4820 is having a slight issue with horizontal jittering (happens on every tape I play, also seeing this directly on my CRT) and I tried cleaning this machine 3 times, no fix. I'm not sure what's the root cause of this, but I'll instead look for a JVC SVHS machine w/ an internal TBC, external TBC, and get an old HP desktop w/ a proper capture card. I'll skip the DVD dubbing method since traal said about color compression and stuff.

[latreche34]

A good S-VHS player with line TBC is a must, Then you can set VDub not to drop frames and with audio going into line in of the PC you will get zero sync problems. Having audio going thru the video capture card has no advantage at all.

[ChunkDaMan]

That can work. Any good capture cards to recommend? I'm sure I can use any but I'm looking for the "perfect" one, preferably a PCI card that's compatible with Win 7.

[jwillis84]

Good VCRs with Line TBC and filters have mostly dried up or will cost a lot of money and then need repairs, a simple cleaning is no longer enough. Even if stored away for a long time their electronics and mechanics have aged and need servicing.

A recently used and maintained VCR with a line TBC (might) be found from a trusted dealer but not really off amazon or ebay anymore.

Usually the VCR you need is the one originally used to make the recordings for playback, that will track the VHS tapes best.. but you don't always remember or know what that model was if you have many tapes from many people or places from many years. In that case you would do best to slowly collect more than one of the major brands of VCRs and specific models that have survived over time. This website has a recommended buyers list of VCRs. Most people focus on JVC for SP speed tapes, Panasonic for LP or slower tapes.. but that is a vast over simplification of the guidelines.. its best to read the recommended buyers list.

An external frame TBC is getting hard to find and expensive, and you can loose money buying equipment from people who don't know much about what they are selling. Again buying from trusted sellers is very important. The first people you buy from will be total unknowns and risky.. but after that you'll develop people you trust.

Also again there are buyers guidelines for external TBCs on this website, spend time reading up on them.

If you cant wait.. or can't afford a true external TBC.. a few (specific) model DVD recorders will take a signal in through their input port and output a cleaned up and pseudo processed signal on their output port, even when they are not recording. So even if their DVD burner is not working, the DVD recorder can be used as a "weak" TBC like video processor. (You do not want to use it for recording.. because a DVD recorder will only record Compressed video to its DVD burner.. but the pass through signal should still be of the same resolution as that of the input signal).

There is not exactly a buyers guide for using DVD recorders as pseudo-TBC replacements here or elsewhere.. but people talk about it from time to time. And the brands and models for this purpose are usually the same.

For a capture device you have Uncompressed or Compressed. A good Uncompressed capture device, usb dongle or AGP/PCI/PCIe card will do minimal harm to the video signal and not overreact to sudden changes in brightness or cause false positive detections to copyright protection signals where there is none.

You do not want to capture Compressed video if you know you need to "fix" a video capture and perform corrections on it. Trying to correct a video that is compressed is futile, it will try to correct flaws introduced by the compression called "Artifacts" and make the video even worse.. after its compressed you can't separate out the original flaws from the compression flaws.. it can only get worse and worse.

More and more (that is most) VHS captures need to be "fixed" so they need to be captured Uncompressed. USB dongles or devices can capture Uncompressed.. but its hard. First the USB is 2.0 and is barely capable of keeping up with full frame video and audio capture at the same time. If a capture device falls behind the video will skip frames or audio samples and they will fall out of sync. Once anything is skipped it can't be put back in.. its lost forever. USB capture needs to be captured generally with the simultaneous video and audio playback during capture "disabled" so that the device and the PC are totally focused on the "capture" process and do not get distracted writing data to the hard disk, then fetching it back from the hard disk to playback on your desktop and through your sound card while its still capturing.

Capture cards AGP/PCI/PCIe have more "room" in their transfer speeds to support simultaneous playback. People usually want this because they don't like (driving) "Blind".. they want to know if something goes wrong, the tape has bad color, bad tracking, screeching noises in the audio ect.. But there are few modern capture cards still supported by Windows 10, even Windows 7. Microsoft and Apple decided to stop building in video capture into their products and started removing the tools to do it. VirtualDub and OBS Studio are about all that anyone uses for Uncompressed capture today. The cards and usb devices they work with.. that also support VHS capture "well" are very few and getting hard to find. This website has a market place where you can find some. The majority are no longer being made, but a few are. The market place also has some sellers with older cards and usb devices and generally the sellers know more about what they are selling. (VirtualDub) supported more USB devices and cards, OBS Studio is really for Windows Vista or beyond.. it won't run on XP.. OBS Studio is also not intended for file capture.. its meant for streaming.. people can just use it for capture.. when your capturing "Uncompressed" the capture software doesn't have to do very much.. shouldn't do very much so the chances of dropped frames or samples is minimal.

VirtualDub doesn't actually do capture, it has a built-in sub-tool called "Capture" which can be called up from its File menu dedicated to the task of capturing Uncompressed video. It was always designed as an Uncompressed frame capture software.. which makes it less distracting and confusing to use than many other software capture tools. There is also a great deal of forum comments, and online documentation as well as a couple of books you can buy dedicated to it. It can do many things, but generally does the capture task very well. Love it or hate it most people eventually learn to use it and like it.

After you have the Uncompressed video capture file.. you usually want to "correct it" using various video filters and post processing software. Avisynth is a batch processing tool which you can write a simple text script that tells it how to "fix" the problems you know exist in the video. It can read it in and correct it and produce a cleaned up output file.

Uncompressed files are large, they have to be to catch every detail and give you the best chance of fixing the video. After you have a "fixed" copy of the video you can then compress it down. Because it will have many errors fixed, the compressed file will be even smaller than what it would have been before it was fixed, so your efforts are well rewarded. And that final "fixed" and "compressed" file is generally what you want to keep, or share with other people.

Without getting into the details and "weeds" and what not about capture devices:

0. use a VCR with a line TBC (see the buyers guide)
1. use an external TBC (read the guides)
2. choose windows xp, and run it on a retro PC dedicated to the capture task, capture to a secondary video only drive
3. choose the ATI TV Wonder USB2.0N capture device (if you want to use USB and can find one of these)
4. choose any of the ATI All-In-Wonder 9000 series AGP cards (if you can find a retro motherboard with an AGP slot)
5. choose the ATI 600 USB (not the ATI 600 PCI card!) capture device if you have to use Windows 7 or Windows 10
6. choose ATI X600, ATI X1800XT, ATI X1900 if you have to use PCI
7. Use VirtualDub for Capture

avoid HDTV gaming capture devices, avoid cheap usb capture devices that do not work with VirtualDub

unknown or un-"discussed" capture devices generally are avoided or not discussed because people have tried them and don't want to say anything bad about them, people generally talk about what they know "works"

people have been at this for more than 25 years now, they know what "works".. nothing new is going to reach all the way back before the transition from Analog to Digital broadcasting in 2009 (ten years ago) and make a device specifically optimized and "tested" to be the "best thing ever" for old VHS tape video capture.. rather... if they even bother to mention on the carton it (can) capture old analog video.. its an untested marketing "after thought" at this point.. its not something to trust or "bet the farm on"

finally...

don't get offended when people tell you your wrong, you don't understand.. your posting too much

they are actually "trying" to be helpful.. their short and concise answers or brief comments.. come as a result of considerable thought on their part.. they are trying (not to flood you) with information.. like I just did.. so count me in the (rude dude) category

try not to get in a hurry.. its easy to do that.. and you can spend a lot of money and feel bad later, real bad.. because you didn't actually understand all your options out there. It can get very frustrating.

But it won't be as frustrating, or irritating.. if you take your time.. and read read read.. the buyers guides and all of the helpful (Very helpful) [Guides] here on this website that tell you exactly how to achieve what your asking.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChunkDaMan

Hi, I recently made a post days ago about having issues with VirtualDub and dropped frames, obviously I'm not using a TBC because I don't have one at the moment.

Line TBC mostly corrects the image.
External framesync TBC mostly corrects the signal, especially dropped frames.
You need both.

Quote:

I am wanting to use a JVC SVHS/DVD recorder combo w/ TBC built-in for capturing, then rip the DVD to digital and do my editing from there.

That's not ideal at all.

The main reason to get specific JVC S-VHS combos is due to the quality of the VCR. Both natively/originally good at VHS, but also currently condition matters (the ACTUAL condition, not just empty promises of "tested" and "working" aka eBay/etc).

The LSI-based DVD recorder is also the best the exists for VHS source conversions.

... just not for editing. Though it depends on what you mean by "editing".

I use the LSI DVD recorders for my cartoon and TV hobby work. Put in tape, record DVD. The caveat is the VHS must be in excellent condition, otherwise lack of external TBC will trip it up (video path is VHS>DVD directly, cannot insert external TBC between VHS and DVD in combo), or just not-great quality will cause it to look ugly with blocks.

My "editing" is mostly just removing commercials, saving the commercial-less file, and done. This is done with lossless MPEG tools, no re-encoding occurs.

If by "editing" you mean anything not the standard "scissors and tape" method (cut, re-arrange), then DVD-Video is a poor choice of source. You need a lossless capture. Then edit, then save out to a final delivery format like DVD-Video, Blu-ray, or streaming.

Quote:

From my research on DigitalFAQ and VideoHelp, I see that TBCs in these combo recorders aren't the best.

Whatever you've read isn't accurate. These JVC S-VHS decks have the line TBCs -- the main reason to own high-end S-VHS VCRs.

Quote:

My question to ask is does anyone have any experience using a JVC SVHS/DVD recorder combo (SR-MV30U, SR-MV40U. SR-MV45, SR-MV50U) for transferring?

You want to stay away from the 30.
The 40/50 is fine, but is older, and I rarely see any in good condition.
The 45/55 is the final model, the best models, but also hard to find in truly good condition.

The issue with LSI boards was that these are susceptible to bad caps. However, the last-gen 45/55 seem to be more resilient, possibly from a post-badcap era. You do still see bad units, but nowhere near as often as the 30/40/50.

Quote:

I'm looking for terms of if the TBC is actually good (I'm assuming it's a line TBC and not a full-frame, though I'm not capping straight to the PC this way).

The JVC S-VHS line TBC is excellent at what it's intended to do: be a line TBC.

Quote:

Do I need an external full-frame TBC for this machine as well?

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the tapes.

Quote:

Also if the picture/sound quality is superb enough for a "professional" transfer?

"Professional transfer" means nothing in that quote. I professionally transfer VHS (and other formats), and have an arsenal of hardware and software to make even the worst signals behave. But the tape is ultimately the decider, not me, not my hardware. However, a tape being "superb enough" can still be butchered by a video novice, or some goon/quack claiming to be a professional.

Quote:

Although the JVC SR-MV models are considered professional, just want extra advice

"Professional" from JVC is both marketing and actuality.

The internals of these decks are based on the SR-V10, and some can be tweaked to A+ status -- see also http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/news...g-grading.html -- most were just A- new, untweaked.

But the Professional badge was also used to sell to institutions. These models were extremely popular with schools/colleges, government, and small studios. And unfortunately, none of those environments was conducive to regular maintenance or basic care. So for that reason, you'll see 10x as many trashed units as now. And even non-trashed (appearance) may have heads shot (audio and video) or component failures.

These decks can be found, and in excellent condition (see also http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/mark...e-jvc-vhs.html), but not easily, or at least not cheaply. These were $1k+ new, and an excellent condition unit still commands $500+. Those eBay units for $100-200 are usually unsalvageable, a complete gamble at minimum.

But again, the main reason to own this deck is the VCR. Even if you don't use the DVD recorder.

Quote:

before making a purchase on eBay

That would be a huge, huge mistake. eBay is literally a VCR dumping ground, with almost 99% of decks sold there being flipped for profit by recyclers and resellers (ie, Storage Wars wanna-be's). These people have zero knowledge on video. They'll plug it in, seeing lights and proclaim it to work. Other stick in a ratty old retail tape (the terrible live-action Ninja Turtles movies, etc), see any quality picture, and proclaim it to be tested. These are ridiculous non-tests that prove nothing. Quite a few sellers don't even bother to plug in the units.

Quote:

EDIT: If I go this route, for DVDs, do you guys recommend using DVD+R, DVD-R, DVD+RW, DVD-RAM? I'm going for DVD+RW right now, but let me know what you think.

You have no choice. JVC LSI DVD recorders use DVD-R and DVD-RW only. 2x DVD-RW are required, or 16x DVD-R are fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traal

No, capturing to DVD will lose color information and add compression artifacts compared to capturing to HuffYUV or similar.

Color information for DVD-Video is 4:2:0, alternating halving of the color data, and is really not that destructive. It's not 4:1:1 DV. There is loss, yes, technically, but most of what you see is slight smoothing, but part of that is also related to MPEG compression. So it's not entirely cut-and-dry here, in terms of color loss.

However, the artifacts issue is accurate. DVD-Video has low bitrates, and artifacts are often unavoidable unless using 1-hour XP mode (and even then, very possible, it's it's only 8-10mbps, which is still technically a lower bitrate, anything sub-15mbps is).

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChunkDaMan

Oh man, so you're telling me I have to go with a [Win 7] desktop PC for a good capture?

Lossless is more ideal for editing, and some laptops can be fine (depends on laptop specs).

Quote:

Also what capture card would you recommend, ATI AIW?

AIW requires XP. Great card, but some folks just resist building an XP system. Some decent lossless USB options exist, work best with Win7, but also do 8/10 (and Vista for those into self-punishment, even more than 10).

Quote:

When I capped on VDub before, I used the UTVideo compression for recording and deinterlacing.

Ut Video is too heavy on CPU, as is Lagarith, and the codec itself can sometimes cause, or add to, dropped frames. Huffyuv is the best option. You can encode to another intermediary lossless later in the post-capture workflow, be it Lagarith, Ut Video, MagicYUV, or whatever.

Quote:

For the VCR itself, I guess if I get a JVC SVHS machine w/ TBC, that should work as my line TBC.

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

The definite cure for audio sync problems is to install a "Line IN" audio card since you have a desktop,

That's not a definite cure whatsoever. Audio sync is almost always a symptom of dropped frames, which can be caused by numerous things. The most common cause is lack of TBC, and that most often resolves it.

Quote:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...d&_stpos=94520

I wouldn't get any of those.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChunkDaMan

but dropped frames are dropped frames

Correct.

Quote:

My current setup is a Panasonic PV-9450 (and Panasonic PV-VS4820 for SVHS cassettes), a Startech.com SVID2USB23, and my HP OMEN 17.

Ouch. Panasonic VHS (non-SVHS) VCRs are notoriously terrible, and that "23" Startech is just a step above an EZcap. Not sure about the laptop, would have to look up specs. The most problematic aspect of laptops is those terrible shiny screens, as the color/contrast is completely fubar, and you cannot judge video color/contrast quality whatsoever. Some are just too slow, period, and will dropped frames endlessly.

Quote:

I'm looking for better and easier ways to capture b/c I'm trying to preserve commercials and content from recorded VHS and SVHS cassettes.

Did I hear commercials?
Whatcha got?

Quote:

a slight issue with horizontal jittering
but I'll instead look for a JVC SVHS machine w/ an internal TBC,

That sort of jittering (up/down image bouncing, not technical "jitter") is generally a timing issue. And the line TBC can often correct it. Sometimes the worst tapes require the ES10/15. Sometimes nothing can save it. Again, the tape makes the calls, you just spar with it, by throwing hardware at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Having audio going thru the video capture card has no advantage at all.

Well, no, some specific USB capture cards handle audio extremely well. Others, not so much. ATI AIW AGP/PCI handles audio by internally passing it back the audio card, so it actually (usually) doesn't touch audio at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChunkDaMan

That can work. Any good capture cards to recommend? I'm sure I can use any but I'm looking for the "perfect" one, preferably a PCI card that's compatible with Win 7.

PCI and Win7 -- not really. By the time Win7 came out, capturing had moved to USB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwillis84

Good VCRs with Line TBC and filters have mostly dried up or will cost a lot of money

Well, hold on now.
#1, I have some available in the marketplace.
#2, the original costs for these decks was far more than it is now, so not really expensive (standard 50-75% of new costs, as quality photo/video gear often is).

However, yes, the reason I started to provide these is because they are getting harder to source. I mostly use my industry contacts to acquire good gear.

Quote:

and then need repairs, a simple cleaning is no longer enough.

Not really repairs, but full refurbs (realign, clean more than heads, etc).

Quote:

A recently used and maintained VCR with a line TBC (might) be found from a trusted dealer but not really off amazon or ebay anymore.

Not Craigslist, etc. Or any site like it, in non-USA/Canada.

Quote:

Usually the VCR you need is the one originally used to make the recordings for playback, that will track the VHS tapes best..

That's a myth. Even if was recorded on a misaligned deck, you can misalign a better JVC to match it. That will always look better than a crummy old VHS VCR.

Quote:

Most people focus on JVC for SP speed tapes, Panasonic for LP or slower tapes.. but that is a vast over simplification of the guidelines.. its best to read the recommended buyers list.

JVC for SP and LP, usually Panasonic for SLP/EP. But not always. Again, the tape makes the call, you don't get a choice in the matter, which is why many of us must own both JVC and Panasonic decks (and often in multiples, as each deck, and deck model, can vary).

Quote:

An external frame TBC is getting hard to find and expensive,

Again, not really.
#1, again, I have some, I make them available specifically so it isn't hard to find one!
#2, price of TBCs was recently addressed here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post62624

Quote:

and you can loose money buying equipment from people who don't know much about what they are selling.

Not just that. Also time.
The main issue is video newbies don't know the difference between working and not working, and by the time they figure it out, they're well past an eBay return window.

Quote:

If you cant wait.. or can't afford a true external TBC.. a few (specific) model DVD recorders will take a signal in through their input port and output a cleaned up and pseudo processed signal on their output port,
the DVD recorder can be used as a "weak" TBC like video processor. (You do not want to use it for recording.. because a DVD recorder will only record Compressed video to its DVD burner.. but the pass through signal should still be of the same resolution as that of the input signal).

The are TBC(ish), not TBC replacements. A TBC(ish) has drawbacks, and can fail on some tapes. The ES10/15 can be backed by the DVK/5000 to be 99% as effective, but still not foolproof, and still the drawbacks (posterization, sometimes faint ghosting).

Quote:

even when they are not recording. So even if their DVD burner is not working,

Theoretically, sure, but that almost never happens. The recorder almost always seizes up completely, and the ES10/15 models referred to here (though unnamed) are hamstrung by 000000 errors. Sometimes it's a caps fix, or drive replacement, but sometimes it's just a boat anchor.

Quote:

There is not exactly a buyers guide for using DVD recorders as pseudo-TBC replacements here or elsewhere.. but people talk about it from time to time. And the brands and models for this purpose are usually the same.

It's really just the ES10/15 models. Anything anybody else has ever talks about is generally very weak.

Quote:

devices can capture Uncompressed.. but its hard.

The 2x-3x data has too much overhead, and is completely pointless to do. Use lossless. That doesn't really change if using USB, AGP, PCI, or PCIe. The hard drive I/O is the main bottleneck, but it is true USB has a smaller straw to suck down that glut of huge data. (USB is fine for lossless.)

Quote:

OBS Studio are about all that anyone uses
OBS Studio is also not intended for file capture.. its meant for streaming.. people can just use it for capture..

I never understand this. Last I saw, it had no dropped frames counters. And even if it does (now), it's mostly a streaming capture tool, not analog capture. VirtualDub was made for analog capture. Sort of like HD cards capturing SD, OBS (currently) does analog as an afterthought.

Quote:

VirtualDub doesn't actually do capture,

Huh?

No, that's still VirtualDub. It's integrated, just an aspect of program, not a separate tool at all. It literally says "capture mode" in several places.

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0. use a VCR with a line TBC (see the buyers guide)
1. use an external TBC (read the guides)
2. choose windows
7. Use VirtualDub for Capture

Yep.

Quote:

avoid HDTV gaming capture devices, avoid cheap usb capture devices that do not work with VirtualDub

Yep.

Quote:

unknown or un-"discussed" capture devices generally are avoided or not discussed because people have tried them
people generally talk about what they know "works"

Yep.

Quote:

people have been at this for more than 25 years now, they know what "works".. nothing new is going to reach all the way back before the transition from Analog to Digital broadcasting in 2009 (ten years ago) and make a device specifically optimized and "tested" to be the "best thing ever" for old VHS tape video capture.. rather... if they even bother to mention on the carton it (can) capture old analog video.. its an untested marketing "after thought" at this point.. its not something to trust or "bet the farm on"

Yep.

Quote:

don't get offended when people tell you your wrong, you don't understand.. your posting too much

Threads like this require long replies from me, and if you were in the same room, you'd hear me say "aw f-ck", because I know it'll take a lot of time. There was too much misinformation going on here, needed some correction and clarification. We don't want that to happen on this site.

Quote:

their short and concise answers or brief comments..
they are trying (not to flood you) with information..

aka, my favorite replies.

Quote:

try not to get in a hurry.. its easy to do that.. and you can spend a lot of money and feel bad later, real bad.. because you didn't actually understand all your options out there. It can get very frustrating.
But it won't be as frustrating, or irritating.. if you take your time.. and read read read.. the buyers guides and all of the helpful (Very helpful) [Guides] here on this website that tell you exactly how to achieve what your asking.

Yep.

I feel that way in other non-video areas. Research time gets exhausting, and you just want it to end, but it's better than dropped $$$$$ on the wrong item. (Cars, cameras, lawnmowers, etc.)

And with that long, long reply, I am done with the (public) forum for the night.
Now for PMs.

[ChunkDaMan]

Sorry for any rushing or me trying to be too much. I've been dealing with dropped frames, the perfect capture method, good quality, etc. for a couple of years and I'm just sick of playing the "fix the pothole" game when it comes to readjusting the audio sync in Premiere.

I want to thank you guys (including LordSmurf) for taking the time to clearly respond sentence by sentence. Kudos.

So now to get to the point here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwillis84

Uncompressed files are large

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Ut Video is too heavy on CPU, as is Lagarith, and the codec itself can sometimes cause, or add to, dropped frames. Huffyuv is the best option. You can encode to another intermediary lossless later in the post-capture workflow, be it Lagarith, Ut Video, MagicYUV, or whatever.

Correct. My first tries capping with VDub uncompressed resulted in a recording rate of 1GB/min. Yikes! I have 8hr cassettes I'm needing to cap, that can result in almost half a TB, lol. When I realized I can use compression while capping, I started using UTVideo and noticed a difference, but I'll look into Huffy if for compressed capping if that should work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Line TBC mostly corrects the image.
External framesync TBC mostly corrects the signal, especially dropped frames.
You need both.

Indeed, which I will. I think I can get two in my price range, the JVC SVHS TBC'er (possibly the SR-MV45), and a Prime Image TBC/FREEZE II. I've looked at the TBC guides here and didn't see the Prime Image in the recommended list (if I'm correct). I'm sure this FF TBC isn't praised, but I think it should do the job for me. My job is to cap via S-Video, not BNC/composite, especially when capping normal VHS if that's correct.

Will I also need an oscilloscope to align the VCR before digitizing for the best quality possible (hence seeing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wksbuYIifBw&t=308s)? Buying one isn't on my radar... yet. They are... somewhat expensive for me, not sure I should get an analog or digital scope. I don't want anything big, just small and compact that will to the alignment (not a pro at this).

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

AIW requires XP. Great card, but some folks just resist building an XP system. Some decent lossless USB options exist, work best with Win7, but also do 8/10 (and Vista for those into self-punishment, even more than 10).

So I'll skip the DVD method for sure and go with the PC method. So if we're talking USB for W7, will my Startech 23 work just as fine? I'm sure at this rate any USB capture should work, just not those cheap n' fake Chinese EZCap dongles that never work for . If my Startech doesn't make the cut, then I'll look at another USB capper (probably the ATI AIW USB). I ask for a praised model so I don't accidentally buy the wrong model if I get a different one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

The most problematic aspect of laptops is those terrible shiny screens, as the color/contrast is completely fubar, and you cannot judge video color/contrast quality whatsoever. Some are just too slow, period, and will dropped frames endlessly.

I made a post on this site and VideoHelp days ago about dropped frames and I posted my computer specs. I'll post it here again to confirm. My screen is matte thank goodness, I hate glossy screens! Personally, I rather go with a separate desktop than using my main computer (which is a high-performance laptop), so I don't have to worry about high processes and CPU murdering frames, especially with the right equipment used IMO.

HP OMEN 17
Intel Core i7-7700HQ
16 GB RAM
Nvidia GeForce GTX 1050 4GB
Intel HD Graphics 630
500 GB SSD (main storage)
2 TB HDD (secondary storage)
Windows 10 Home x64

I would like to go with an old used HP/Compaq desktop for using the PCI cards, but if W7 is a recommendation for USB, I'll probably get one of those small HP/Compaq SFF units. Still doing my research though... "Check yourself before you wreck yourself", don't wanna go that route.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

see also My VCR tracking grading scale! most were just A- new, untweaked.

Page not found. Lol?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Did I hear commercials?
Whatcha got?

For what content I have they're recorded from the late 90s to 2002, I bought 4 recorded blanks off eBay (double checked for what I'm looking for picture and audio quality). Some of them contain some SLP content, if not, most contain SP content. Some were recorded in stereo, but not all of it sadly... Hi-Fi stereo machines were expensive back then I'm sure. FOX, A&E, Discovery Channel, Disney Channel, PBS, AMC, and ESPN are the channels that are recorded on those cassettes as of now. For myself, my family weren't into recording VHS much back then b/c we had the latest technology (DVRs). Although we have a blank that contains Cast Away from HBO from 2001 I think (poor volume though!) I'm trying to do my best here trying to preserve that nostalgic goodness for those out there- the right way (aren't we all?), and I like helping out doing things I love.

As a video and audiophile, sorry to sound like a poot here but I'm sick of people on YT trying to digitize and archive VHS nostalgia in the worst way possible. They don't use any time base correction, use one of the worst cappers, and my goodness... use a [cheap] 2 HEAD MONO VCR (record using the left channel only) whose heads haven't been cleaned... . Worse, they cap in 240p 30p. Even worse, some potato cam the footage using a cheap camcorder... " They're doing it wrong! Pourquoi?!" I understand money may be or IS tight for them, I get it, that's me as well, especially when it comes to TBCs and good equipment and they just want to get the job done. I have to say that the magnetic tape on VHS cassettes don't last forever and digitizing in the best way possible is key. There is time to re-digitize those cassettes, but if the original source tape is gone, then whatever's been digitized (I mean in the worst way) is what it is.

EDIT: I'm aware that MTS stereo VHS wasn't a thing until the mid 80s and those machines had to be expensive at the time, so probably a lot of recorded blanks only had linear audio except for those who actually had a stereo VCR on hand. I meant those capping stereo VHS tapes are using mono VCRs, thus losing the sterophonics due to mono heads.

I really want to show a clip of one of my transfers from 2017, but the attachment page isn't working right now. The clip was recorded and processed in VDub (only frame clipping), and exported interlaced to show how my "raw" caps work. From this setup, I used my Startech 23 capper and my Panasonic PV-9450 w/o any time base correction. Though the issue here is the stupid audio sync is off as usual, but I think the sync goes bad right when the VCR starts playing the tape from the blue screen to the black.

My research is almost complete- getting there, thanks LordSmurf and jwillis84!

[jwillis84]

I actually do have a Startech # SVID2USB23

I like many Startech things, they are an importer, but tend to try to document what they import on their website and often provide chipset information. They cater to their specific clientele which is a bit above the average consumer.

So I have a lot of experience with this particular model. It has great drivers, and support on both the PC and the Mac with drivers for both. The drivers are well written and it will work on XP through Win7 and possibly W10.

But here are the downsides (from my experience).

Its chipset is based on the EMPIA brand and chips, it is what is known as a "Combo" USB device which means if your Windows operating system has previously had "Combo" usb devices installed and removed.. it may only install the video capture or audio capture device as (one thing) at the end of that USB cable. Its a lot of trouble to fix the Windows operating system once the Microsoft "Combo" mini-driver has been screwed up and get it so that it recognizes both the audio and video capture parts of the dongle. They should appear as two separate devices in both the Sound and Imaging parts of the Device Manager tree.. so its "confusing" to troubleshoot and use.

And for all those potential problems.. it also gets "hot" to the touch.. and its a "medium" where the analog to digital DAC is concerned. Its cheap for a reason.. to save the manufacturer costs.. and keeps the price low. The audio capture chip is also lower quality.

And then you have the bandwidth issues of USB 2.0 you absolutely can capture losslessly, but you have to be careful. No audio playback while capturing audio and video.. only turn on audio playback for setting levels, then turn it "off". Its also not a video card so you have to use the [Preview] feature of VirtualDub to see the video while your capturing which drives up the CPU usage and increases the possibility of dropped frames.

But its very versatile.

It works on both Windows and Mac, and has a real TWAIN driver (like the Flatbed Scanner TWAIN driver.. lol) for a video capture device. But finding the full CDROM ISO that comes with a new and genuine SVID2USB23 can be hard.. what's on the website may not match the actual hardware version of this device that you get. Its hard matching up device drivers to the actual hardware device. The PID and VID isn't always a good guide.. its a pain in the neck!

Keep in mind that it may not work with Windows 10, Windows 10 is actually a collection of windows from Win10-16 to Win10-19 so several years.. and they expire driver certificates now.. so they are constantly dropping hardware support. They barely trust any hardware device manufacturer any more. Apple Macs are dropping Quicktime support later this year and expiring (all) 32 bit driver support along with it. Those platforms just will not capture hardly any video after the end of 2019.. even game capture will get very hard... if anyone decides to continue paying the fees Microsoft is charging. So the gamer capture devices used for streaming will be going up in cost. Its not a matter of buy now or pay later. If you buy gamer capture stuff now.. it won't work later. Thank you Microsoft.

You'd probably have more luck using Android and your phone to capture video after 2019.

Can you use the SVID2USB23 to capture video with VirtualDub.. (yes).. should you or do you want to? For me its a qualified No.. only if completely desperate.

Try to get use to the idea that (older) OS and OS hardware is better for video capture.. it just "is".. at this point. Before it was sort of may be.. or you could try the newer stuff. But now (2019) its being pushed off a cliff.. by the end of the year.. you won't have any choice. (well there is Windows 8.1 but does anyone really use that OS?)

If anything.. for video capture.. the retro PC movement will probably have to get more expensive in the long term, because it will get more rare and harder to acquire, and maintain. So its becoming a matter of buy (older) now.. or pay later. -- do not take that as a license to (buy buy buy).. do your homework, but get it done.

Some people also say Linux will save us all.. but driver support in Linux is very sparse for video capture.. a lot of video capture depends on device drivers plus firmware that needs to be uploaded to the video capture device before it will run.. and those "blobs" are not documented or understood.. so not supported. Legions of TV Tuners are not supported under Linux because of this.. and many compression based PVR cards.. What is left is not great video capture cards, but what remains.. mostly Connexant or Bt848 based chipsets, and not always with full functionality.

[hodgey]

Does it have a TVP5150AM1 (the one the ATi 600 uses) as suggested here? Or is it one of these mediocre all-in-one empia chips?

The ATi 600 USB also uses an empia bridge and audio chip (which I suspect is what's behind it's clipping at y=16 issue), but it seems the empia chip in that one is a different one.

Quote:

The are TBC(ish), not TBC replacements. A TBC(ish) has drawbacks, and can fail on some tapes. The ES10/15 can be backed by the DVK/5000 to be 99% as effective, but still not foolproof, and still the drawbacks (posterization, sometimes faint ghosting).

Sorry for going a bit off topic here, but I'm curious what differences you have found with having the DVK/5000 in the chain behind the DVD recorder? The only things I've noted on the PAL recorders I've tested is that they may output a macrovision signal which some capture cards dislike, and the ES10 outputs no signal if there is nothing connected to the selected input port. From what I've seen they all digitize the video to a normal 720 (or 704 on the ES10)x480/576 video stream and then create a new video signal from that so there shouldn't be anything else causing issues for capture cards.

[jwillis84]

The SVID2USB23 has a true EMPIA chip.. I have the part number around here somewhere, and a separate AC97 sound chip. the bridge chip is from Cypress I believe.

Most video capture USB devices use a USB bridge chip which can be programmed with "any" PID and VID which is why you can't audit what's actually on the board behind the chip.. and thats also why a manufacturer can get away with swapping chips mid-stream through production with some other chips leaving you wondering "why doesn't the old device driver work?"

Its a flexible situation for the manufactuer.. and a very frustrating problem for people buying stuff. You can buy two identical boxes of what you think is the same capture device and one works with your currently installed driver and the other does not.. you think D.O.A. and toss it.. but figure this out, reinstall the "new" device driver labeled the same thing.. and then it works.

From what I have learned Hauppauge does this alot.. so be careful if you buy one second hand.. it may work, but you just don't have the right driver for that particular hardware "revision" of the device.. they just didn't correctly mark it with a "revision" number.

.. as for "stacking" an external TBC after a DVD recorder used as a "filter".. its hard to predict.. I personally haven't had the problem, but know I've read other people do and have to manage that problem on a case by case basis.

If I had to "guess" it would be something in the cabling, grounding of each device.. or impedance mismatch between specific components. Though I think I have read that people said it was not as simple as any of those and something in the actual way the DVD recorder filtered the original signal that triggered or defeats the following TBCs ability to lock on to the sync signals.

But that's just what I have read..

Lordsmurf or others probably have real world experience.

[hodgey]

Yeah I've seen this on the VC500MAC (white ones, completely different from the normal black VC500 which has a Conexant chip). We got 2 of them where I work, one has a Trident SAA7113H video A/D chip, an empia Em28xx USB bridge (don't remember exact one) chip and an empia EMP202 sound chip. The other (presumably newer) one has a single EMPIA 2980 chip that seems to be responsible for everything. Unsurprisingly, the video quality is not as good as the one with the SAA chip in it, and on MacOS (but not on windows) this one only captures to 640x480. Maybe startech did something similar to reduce cost.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChunkDaMan

Page not found.

Bad linking.
Try now: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/news...g-grading.html

Quote:

As a video and audiophile, sorry to sound like a poot here but I'm sick of people on YT trying to digitize and archive VHS nostalgia in the worst way possible. They don't use any time base correction, use one of the worst cappers, and my goodness... use a [cheap] 2 HEAD MONO VCR (record using the left channel only) whose heads haven't been cleaned... . Worse, they cap in 240p 30p. Even worse, some potato cam the footage using a cheap camcorder...

I also detest the stupidity and laziness. It's mostly a tease. "Look at the rare stuff that now looks horrible!"

Quote:

I really want to show a clip of one of my transfers from 2017, but the attachment page isn't working right now.

99mb max, and it has a timeout for about 60s. So it too big, takes you too long (your connection slow), it fails. Try to attach smaller. Note that high bitrate H.264 in MP4/MVK can often show errors without needs of huge AVI files.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwillis84

Its chipset is based on the EMPIA brand and chips, it is what is known as a "Combo" USB device

eMPIA is just a bridge, a card controller. eMPIA does make some audio chips, but not often. No video capture chips that I'm aware of. Those are hidden from you. If you really want to see what chip is used, crack it open, look, hope the chips are not unlabeled or obscured (common), and that you can put it back together once cracked open (hard).

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(well there is Windows 8.1 but does anyone really use that OS?)

Such a bad OS. A couple tablets here have it, but the Win10 are so much better at tablets. Both OS are lousy for desktops, and serious video work.

Quote:

Some people also say Linux will save us all.. but driver support in Linux is very sparse for video capture.. a lot of video capture depends on device drivers plus firmware that needs to be uploaded to the video capture device before it will run..

Always scary. I don't like the idea of replacing card firmware with homebrew Linux.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

Does it have a TVP5150AM1 (the one the ATi 600 uses) as suggested here? Or is it one of these mediocre all-in-one empia chips?

Again, eMPIA is just a bridge to actual chips like TI's TVP5150 variants. eMPIA does have some audio chips, but are pretty terrible, tinny, distorts, like those on Easycap card.

Quote:

Sorry for going a bit off topic here, but I'm curious what differences you have found with having the DVK/5000 in the chain behind the DVD recorder? The only things I've noted on the PAL recorders I've tested is that they may output a macrovision signal which some capture cards dislike, and the ES10 outputs no signal if there is nothing connected to the selected input port. From what I've seen they all digitize the video to a normal 720 (or 704 on the ES10)x480/576 video stream and then create a new video signal from that so there shouldn't be anything else causing issues for capture cards.

ES10/15 output is still analog, and still dirty. The DVK/5000 further prevents issues from anti-copy, or other errors. But the DVK/5000 alone is too weak, and the 5000 is especially confused by anti-copy not pre-processed by ES10/15. I've run tests over and over on this, and reproduced these problems in many combos.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwillis84

The SVID2USB23 has a true EMPIA chip.. I have the part number around here somewhere, and a separate AC97 sound chip. the bridge chip is from Cypress I believe.

EM28xx is the bridge.
AC97 is pretty terrible, always has been.

Quote:

Its a flexible situation for the manufactuer.. and a very frustrating problem for people buying stuff. You can buy two identical boxes of what you think is the same capture device and one works with your currently installed driver and the other does not.. you think D.O.A. and toss it.. but figure this out, reinstall the "new" device driver labeled the same thing.. and then it works.
From what I have learned Hauppauge does this alot.. so be careful if you buy one second hand.. it may work, but you just don't have the right driver for that particular hardware "revision" of the device.. they just didn't correctly mark it with a "revision" number.

Yep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

The other (presumably newer) one has a single EMPIA 2980 chip that seems to be responsible for everything..

Online info still shows this to just be a bridge, connected to an unknown encoder/decoder chip.

[hodgey]

Quote:

Online info still shows this to just be a bridge, connected to an unknown encoder/decoder chip.

I can find a picture later, but the 2980 chip is the only chip in the dongle. I presume it combines video decoder, audio decoder and the bridge into one. It could be that video part is based on something existing though.

I'm guessing you're right about the one in the startech dongle though. The empia bridges have been combined with several different video A/D chips in various usb dongles, like the TVP5150AM, the SAA7113, and some others.

[ChunkDaMan]

After much more heavy research later, I think I finally know what I'm up to on this whole mess...

Just to confirm with everyone here, this is the list of equipment I'll be using for this project:

1. A previously custom-built Windows XP desktop (presumably from 2004) ($72.94)

Specs (unconfirmed, b/c certain parts are missing from the machine):

Windows XP Home Edition SP2 x86 (missing)
Intel Pentium 4 (possibly HT model)
1 GB RAM
1 TB HDD (missing, will need to buy off Amazon- unsure if will be connected to SATA or IDE)
ATI All-in-Wonder 9800 Pro ($89.80)
5.1 audio PCI card (probably the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz)

As a bonus, I'll add a PCI firewire card so I can do MiniDV Handycam transfers in the future if that's fine. ($8.98)

2. JVC SR-MV45 Super VCR/DVD combo (will be using VCR side, video through S-Video) ($119.99) + remote ($39.76)
3. Prime Image TBC/Freeze II ($90)

Everything here has been bought off eBay, bought everything within the budget (yes). Though I'm aware that these JVC SR VCRs tend to crap themselves due to cheap Chinese caps, and for $120, I'm willing to take the risk (was listed as "tested" and "working", uhhhhh). If the shipments come through fast enough, I'll be able to put everything together and see if everything works fine. The VCR is going to worry me to most, making sure it's working "right enough" and may need an alignment if necessary. Will need to buy the HDD, cables and more from Amazon (another $100 for Johnson's sake). BTW is it necessary to get a DVD/RW drive for this machine b/c this one already comes with a DVD/ROM drive and I'm not sure if DVD burning is necessary for an XP machine.

Let me know what you think, wish me luck guys...
Thanks again and I'll post new status within the next week.

[lordsmurf]

1tb HDD from 2004 sounds unusual. At minimum, just SATA-I (750).
But it sounds fine for capture.
Note: Older systems like that need 2nd drive for captures, primary left just for OS/software.

Remote for $40 was expensive, usually half that.

Prime Image TBC is not a suggest TBC, not really meant for consumer analog sources, it's weak. It may let you down, very common.

The MV45 doesn't really have caps issues as often, most resilient of the MV models, probably from post-espionage era. However, the biggest issue with eBay decks is they need maintenance, proper cleaning, and repair. So don't stick an important tape in it right away. About 85% of all eBay decks are in horrid shape -- and that's not a number I pulled from thin air. Actual stats collected over past 4 years.

[ChunkDaMan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordSmurf

1tb HDD from 2004 sounds unusual. At minimum, just SATA-I (750).

I mean buy a new 1 TB WD Blue SATA drive from Amazon. Unless I can buy two old IDE drives from eBay. It's been a while since I've worked on desktops though (I've been on a laptop/mobile-type computer for so long I've forgotten which cables are which inside desktop PCs). The motherboard inside the PC I bought is a Gigabyte GA-8TRS350MT, which has support for AGP 8x, IDE, and SATA. I'm not sure if the power supply has SATA power connectors though, probably Molex only. I don't know until I receive the desktop then I can do my inspection on what exact connections I need.

EDIT: Looking at the images in the listing, looks like the SATA ports are unused and the 2 IDE ports are used. So it's either the debate of choosing either SATA or IDE HDDs and optical drives. If going with SATA for anything, then it's likely possible I'll have to convert Molex to SATA power, depending on the PSU.

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Remote for $40 was expensive, usually half that.

Supply and demand I guess? It was the only remote available at the time for the MV45, most of these machines don't have remotes and it's nearly impossible to fully function the VCR w/o the actual remote (bought TVs, VCRs, etc. w/o remotes and most of their features are inaccessible w/o the original remote (especially a universal remote).

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Prime Image TBC is not a suggest TBC, not really meant for consumer analog sources, it's weak. It may let you down, very common.

It's under my budget, therefore, the Datavideo models are superior. I've recently seen a Datavideo TBC-1000 on eBay sell for over $500, but It's definitely one of the favored TBCs, way out of my budget. Is the freeze really that weak compared to a TBC-1000 (in percentage)? A piece of broadcasting equipment from the mid-90s should handle analog video w/o hassle IMO.

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However, the biggest issue with eBay decks is they need maintenance, proper cleaning, and repair.

I always clean A/V equipment after I get it from estate sales and Goodwill. I'll definitely clean the heads on this machine before turning the thing on. I'll pop in a common VHS that you can pretty much find everywhere (Titanic- oh wait, I only have tape 1 and mine's in bad shape.... Jurassic Park then).

The TBC, remote, and AIW have arrived today, still waiting for the PC and VCR, as well as other parts that are pending in the Amazon cart. So far I only tested the TBC w/ my Panasonic PV-VS4820 via S-video to my CRT. I can't tell if the analog corruption is eliminated or what. The control board and switches work perfectly though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordSmurf

99mb max, and it has a timeout for about 60s. So it too big, takes you too long (your connection slow), it fails. Try to attach smaller. Note that high bitrate H.264 in MP4/MVK can often show errors without needs of huge AVI files.

The avi size is... 806 MB, oh wow I didn't even check. I thought it was 30 MB. Anyway, the size was the issue lol. Looks like I gotta use my HandBrake here... I hope you all like compressed MP4s, though I think the constant bitrate fixed the sync. This was captured in August 2017 using the Startech 23, no TBC used here. I would like to recap this segment from my Home Alone 2 tape w/ my new equipment and see if the picture is much better than what I originally used before.