No Sony decks to recommend?
I been looking at the buying guide - is there not a single Sony deck worth using? Even the ones with TBC?
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I believe VHS vcrs with a TBC feature were mostly limited to JVC and Panasonic-made decks.
The only sony ones I'm aware of having it I've found is the SVO5600 and SVO5800 broadcast decks, and possibly the EV-T2 Hi8/VHS combo deck. The Sony one is a broadcast deck, i.e SP only, broadcast decks have not been included in the buying guide due to their limitations, and the EV-T2 seems to be very rare. How the Sony S-VHS decks in general perform image-quality- and tracking-wise I can't speak for, as I haven't used any of them. |
There are some good high end Sony decks if you can find them in good running condition. The SLV-R1000 is one of those. You will just have to pair it with a good TBC to make it worthwhile.
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I believe Sony decks had a good reputation for first owner use and good performance for the first couple of years of ownership. But they did not survive long in the resale market.
Their power supplies were noted as being unique and practically impossible to repair. Their mechanics very high tolerance and prone to wearing out sooner than other manufacturers. They also didn't share many components between designs or with other manufacturers so parts were very hard to come by in the after sale market. People who owned them have fond memories of them, people who took a chance on buying one used rarely had good things to say about them. For the most part.. only someone who hasn't been burned.. raises the question any more. |
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I have a Panasonic AG-1960 for a few years - sitting gathering dust till I get back to my digitizing project. I didn't realize the Panasonic AG-1960 didn't have TBC - so I sold off the two AG-1980s I picked up at auction. Now I feel like I can't start back up until I've got something with internal TBC. I'm probably overthinking it and should just move on, but it's something to scrounge for :) |
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You simply don't know what you don't know.. and that will not change unless you get first person experience, or find solid information that convinces you that its a bargain, or something that you need. The former is easy to "Trick yourself into" the latter takes time. Its almost certain you didn't miss out on any bargains, they were mostly had many years ago. The prices have stuttered back upwards and people don't even bother listing anymore unless its for enough to cover the auction fees and shipping on their side. Many people don't even know what this equipment is for.. it was sold back before they were born. If you do buy, be sure to ship by FedEx, UPS at the worst.. and don't buy if its listed as shipping by USPS only. Your mileage may vary, but if they list by USPS only they aren't experienced or don't care and its probably junk. If they won't switch to any other shipping method.. you "definitely" don't want that device. The AG-1960 looks nice, but is a bit primitive compared to what came after it in the 1990's. The AG-1970 was better but not as good as an AG-1980 in its prime (in.. its.. PRIME). The only place to buy a good AG-1980 is from Tgrant Photo these days.. and he prices them fairly for the current market. He also fixes them on a limited scheduled.. you have to get a slot on his schedule before shipping a unit to him for repair. He does a good business with pros who still use the AG-1980 and is a pleasure to do business with.. he takes all kinds of precautions to make sure you don't ship to him too early, and that you pack and ship it so its not damaged and then does the same to make sure it gets back to you. He will tell you if he is too busy, or the conditions under which he won't touch your unit.. self repair attempts are "off limits" he won't waste your time or his on machines people have already tried to repair themselves or that are in pieces. Its usually best.. if your serious, to look up the ones he has for sale and buy one.. quickly, if you have to wait because of the cost, then don't expect that unit to be up for sale when you return and come back several months later. TBC's are sometimes available in the market place on this forum, keep an eye out for them. LordSmurf will try to provide guidance and sometimes sells them.. but be careful.. and just forget it when it comes to auction sites.. they go for ridiculous astronomical prices and are probably broken. Some people have taken to buying DVRs and using them as pass-thru devices to provide the TBC function. Even when they are not being used to record, they take signal in through their Input Jacks clean it up and provide TBC to it, then continuously send it to their Output Jacks. That's because people tended to want to watch while they were recording to make sure they were on the right channel ect.. the happy coincidence is this turned them into standalone signal processors optimized for VHS signals. So even if their DVD burners were "busted" or could not burn a disc anymore.. they were perfectly passable pseudo TBCs. I say pseudo because they were never advertised as this.. and some were much much better than others at the signal clean up.. so you are still better off picking and choosing a DVR to use as a TBC rather than picking up the first one you find. ps. I should clarify.. not (all) DVRs clean up the signal from Input to Output jacks. Some simply split the signal before taking the copy in that it cleans up and records from. Also not (all) DVRs even pass-thru the Input signal to the Output.. its on a case by case basis. Look around in these forums or others and you will find lots of specific examples of what works.. only bet on a scenario that has already been tested by several other people.. trying it yourself can get costly. |
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I sort of assume I'll need to recap anything I get serious about - but looking at what Tgrant photo is doing - ug. That's a lot of damn work, and the mechanical part is definitely not part of my skillset. Would be cool to know more about the waveform analyzer and sourece tapes they are using. Thanks for pointing them out. WRT the external TBC, what I've read seems to indicate it isn't as good as internal. Is this less of a big deal than I'm making it out to be? Thanks! |
Internal versus External are worlds apart.
Internal TBC refers to a circuit inside the VCR that is built specifically to sense and adjust for the push and pull of the tape through the machine that stretches and relaxes the tape. This slinky effect stretches and shortens the line width of a video trace across the field. Having "insiders" information it can adjust for mechanical defects introduced into the analog video signals and shorten or lengthen each "line" as needed.. that gives you "sharp" vertical edges in the video frame for capture. External TBC can roughly approximate line corrections.. but its already traveled a long ways through cables of varying lengths which can't be predicted.. so there is some "smear" to the edge that can't be corrected for.. because it varies for every situation. So edge correction with an External TBC is marginal at best.. if even tried. But The Vertical Blanking Interval and the horizontal and vertical "sync" signals that start and end a line trace and a field or frame can be corrected.. these have to be sychronized for "genlock" when blending two signals or switch from A to B roll for special effects.. ect.. those were "premium features" that broadcast engineers needed.. today they are perfect for correcting sync loss or "up and down" or "side to side" jitter and "tearing or flagging".. you see it as a curved pull to the side at the top of a frame of video.. when its corrected.. that goes away and everything locks on solid and square and the frame doesn't move. So you need "both". An External TBC does the lions share of help.. but for a good signal you won't see much of a difference.. for a poor signal you will see a lot of difference.. which most of us need today. An Internal TBC polishes the signal even more, but you can only get it with a few specific VCRs and they tend to cost a lot of money. So in order of importance.. an external is more important, then an internal, if you can get both its best. Beyond "appearance" an external TBC also makes "frame drops" less likely. When a capture device is scooping up video information for a frame.. if some is missing or "not right".. it can't produce digital data for that frame.. and has to throw it away. That becomes a "frame drop". The problem with frame drops, other than sudden motion jerks in the video.. is that sound is captured by a different path, and that may get captured with no problem. Now you've got too much sound to go with video.. a decision has to be made or you loose "lip sync" or audio and video sync. There are about six possibilities.. you could throw away sound samples.. and introduce pops and clicks in the audio track.. repeat video frames downstream in the video capture software.. try to blend sound samples on the fly to hide pops and clicks.. throw away sound samples to keep audio and video in sync.. capture everything and let it get out of sync and merely report the problem.. gradually push and pull the sync artificially so that over the entire recording lip sync comes and goes. The cheaper the capture device and software the fewer the options.. and all are compromises. Its far easier to keep capture sessions "short" so maximum sync loss between audio and video are minimized per transfer..and to use TBCs.. not only for visual clarity.. but also to minimize frame drops and audio and video sync loss. |
Thanks. lots of good info for me in there! Thanks for clarifying what TBC is doing to correct the mechanical issues. I'll go read up more on setting up a pipeline/workflow. Looks like I've been overly focused on one element to the exclusion of the others.
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Orsetto, the resident VH curmudgeon, and I sound more and more similar these days. He was a pessimist a decade ago, but reality has caught up to him. So, if you want a 2nd opinion: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...ys#post2239649 Quote:
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Yes, the list has some non-TBC models, but those are not really "suggested", more like honorable mentions. Each has some interesting uses, nice cooperation with some tapes. Quote:
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The main problem is packaging properly. I use specific boxes and packing materials, and then pack the item in a specific way. For example, with JVC VCRs, you must protect the faceplate with 3x layers of bubble wrap. If you don't, odds are it'll arrive cracked, if not entirely smashed, as it's just plastic. Not just plastic, but resin-like, so it shatters easily. Then I use large labels. You've bought some of my gear, you've seen my packing work. :wink2: The shipper used makes no difference if packed poorly. I exclusively use USPS because Fedex is infamous in my location, and they're not to be trusted. UPS drivers are notoriously rough with their items, and in too much of a hurry. UPS and Fedex also try to fight insurance claims, rather than fess up to their negligence, and try to weasel out of responsibility with legalese gibberish "fine print". Quote:
The other aspect about TBCs is that model may not matter, chips do. So, for example, an AVT-8710 isn't necessarily an AVT-8710 you want. The green ones had the good chips, and the black the bad chips. But then you get into the clones, where you have to break seals, dismantle the units to verify chipsets. Which is what I do. And test extensively (a "burn in" test) to verify normal scenario usage. You can't just flip it on, see any image, and deem it to work. Quote:
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And DVR = DVD recorders, an important distinction. I don't want somebody trying to hook up a TiVo or something, assuming it can be a TBC. :laugh: TBC is such a wide term, and manufacturers often played fast and loose with the term. As I like to joke, I sometimes wonder if my toaster has a TBC. Because it literally was that overused and abused. The ADVC is a perfect example of this, as the "TBC" inside really does almost nothing. The correction is so faint as to be worthless. Quote:
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- internal line TBC cleans the image - external frame sync TBC cleans the signal - you need both In actuality, line has some signal correction, and frame has some image correction, but the bulk of the corrections are as stated. But this little extra tidbit of knowledge reinforces the idea that both are required. Anyway, thread is meandering now... no Sony S-VHS deck is worthwhile. That's the take away. |
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well, I have some other questions I'm sure, but I'll post those in a more appropriate thread. Thanks for the wonderful input and support everyone! |
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