Quantcast Canopus ADVC-110/300 vs. ATI AIW/600 USB comparisons? - digitalFAQ Forum
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  #1  
07-17-2019, 02:06 PM
dima dima is offline
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From what I know(I can be wrong) most people from this forum would say that to capturing the signal from the VHS cassette to the digital file the best option to get the best image quality will be: ATI AIW USB and followed by: ATI 600 USB. At the same time, the Canopus(DV) devices from the ADVC series, such as 110 or 300, are considered by at least some people to be worse than those of ATI. Yes ?

I know that there were probably people who compared these devices to each other. Is there any material on the internet showing image screenshots showing these image comparisons of the same picture frames: Canopus ADVC(100, 110, 300) vs ATI AIW USB (and/or ATI 600 USB) ? I would like to see the difference (if any) in the image between these devices. [It is known that using the same any settings, equipment only changing the converter.]

[Does it make a difference for the image quality which type of device(USB, PCI, AGP, PCIe) - for example ATI 600 USB - is used to capture the image(from VHS to digital file) ?
Maybe not a USB converter(and specifically those from ATI) is the best in terms of the best quality of the image being obtained only some other... ?]

EDIT:
I forgot to add that it's about converting the PAL signal and as far as I'm concerned about the comparison, it is just for the PAL signal.

Last edited by dima; 07-17-2019 at 02:26 PM.
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  #2  
07-17-2019, 02:15 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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The actual difference is that DV capture devices use a lossy DV codec that is outdated, incompatible with new devices and capture color at half the resolution for NTSC, While a PCI or a USB capture device gives you the option to capture lossless first if you plan on editing or saving as master footage and you can always compress later to a video format of your choice with decent color resolution and decent encoding bitrate.
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  #3  
07-17-2019, 02:28 PM
dima dima is offline
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Thank you for your response.
I already know this theory well(I think), now it would be nice to see a comparison about which I wrote in the first post.
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  #4  
07-17-2019, 09:28 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Here is a lossless sample:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...t-gatheringavi

From the exact same PAL tape, here is a DV capture:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...athering-dvavi

Though the first sample is from JVC S-VHS using S-Video cable, the second is from a Toshiba VCR using composite cable, Not really a good comparaison.
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  #5  
07-18-2019, 01:15 AM
dima dima is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Though the first sample is from JVC S-VHS using S-Video cable, the second is from a Toshiba VCR using composite cable, Not really a good comparaison.
Yes, so it is not good comparison.
In general, the first movie captured losslessly to AVI I can't be strangely played. Pops: "no encoder - decoder; this element has been encoded in a format that is not supported.; 0xc00d5212 ".
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  #6  
07-18-2019, 02:17 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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You need MPC-HC or VLC in your computer, Windows media player won't play such files.
The most important thing to take from those two files is that chroma noise is horrible on the DV sample, while the lossless sample has somehow better color uniformity.
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  #7  
07-18-2019, 08:22 AM
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jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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definitely a unique request

comparing a lossy format to a lossless format (DV to Uncompressed), by definition the DV will be missing information from the Uncompressed.. so all you could compare by inspection would be the analog filters on the input.. and the DV would always start out at a disadvantage

to my inspection when I had to "see for myself" the DV always appears "fuzzy" or out of focus on all captured video compared to an Uncompressed sample of the same video. I think the technical term is "softer" or lacking detail

where Canopus ADVC got its fame was in stablizing the video and dropping fewer frames and making "smaller" file sizes.. until Huffyuv and Lagarith came along and elimited the smaller file size advantage

None of this invalidates the better "tolerance" that some capture gear had over newer and less expensive gear for bad and unstable analog video signals. ADVC came from an era plagued by marginal analog signals so was and "is" very tolerant of bad analog video signal "acquistion". Its major downfall however is it can't output "Uncompressed" video capture over the Firewire connection.

Last edited by jwillis84; 07-18-2019 at 08:49 AM.
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  #8  
07-18-2019, 11:19 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Here are some test files with PAL test patters.

A few months ago I have create a test file which I have burn onto a dvd. To play the dvd I have connect the DVD Recorder Panasonic DMR-495 with S-Video connectors to the s-video input connectors of the different capture cards.

I have left the capture settings from each card at default settings.

To compare the files you should use a Vectorscope & a waveform monitor.


Attached Files
File Type: mpg Original MPG Test File.mpg (21.43 MB, 9 downloads)
File Type: avi Test File ATI 600 USB.avi (92.55 MB, 12 downloads)
File Type: avi Test File ATI AIW 9600.avi (62.47 MB, 7 downloads)
File Type: avi Test File Canopus ADVC 300.avi (72.94 MB, 9 downloads)
File Type: avi Test File Canopus NX .avi (69.91 MB, 7 downloads)
File Type: avi Test File Diamond 500 USB.avi (45.25 MB, 5 downloads)
File Type: avi Test File ATI Wonder USB.avi (60.09 MB, 7 downloads)
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  #9  
07-18-2019, 01:07 PM
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jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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yes

there's that fuzz again, although its a bit more pronounced than I recall.. i was stubborn at hoping it would be "not that big a difference" but finally had to admit it was

ugh.. these samples just put it all in stark relief all over again.. great captures.. good samples

Last edited by jwillis84; 07-18-2019 at 01:29 PM.
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  #10  
07-18-2019, 02:39 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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DV white levels are very bad, Although it's PAL chroma is almost the same as the other samples because it's 4:2:0, You should post a NTSC file for DV it will reveal its weakness.
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  #11  
07-19-2019, 08:18 AM
dima dima is offline
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Thank you very much for this comparison. It is really helpful.

I tried to take the same screenshots of the image(using the video from the movie, which appears from 6 to 9 seconds of the movie) and by watching full movies.
So:
I don't see the differences between ATI AIW USB (ATI Wonder USB) and ATI AIW 9600.

ATI 600 USB seems to have clearer signs than ATI AIW USB (ATI Wonder USB) - for example: letters, numbers - which can be caused by the contrast that creates the background colors with the presented characters, but I'm not completely sure this better characters in ATI 600 USB - maybe its value is not caused by contrast, or not only by it.
ATI AIW USB (ATI Wonder USB) has in my opinion better presentation of colors than ATI 600 USB which is manifested in the fact that as if they are more natural, defined and delimited, where in ATI 600 USB as if at the borders of colors are created blurring, transition from one color in the other.
ATI 600 USB as if better defining different shades of white, where in the same situation ATI AIW USB sees the final of shades as one white color.
And the black color seems to better delimit the ATI AIW USB, where the ATI 600 USB does it worse. Regarding these black and white colors, evidence for this we have in the fields under the numbers: 235, 16, 1 (I also refer to comparisons between other devices) and on a long line showing the transition from white to black (and vice versa) in the middle of the graphics.

ATI AIW USB (ATI Wonder USB) has a better definition, color delimitation than Diamond 500 USB.
Diamond USB 500 as if better defined different shades of white, where in the same situation ATI AIW USB (ATI Wonder USB) sees all of the shades as white. In shades of black Diamond 500 USB it's like a bit (very slightly) worse than ATI AIW USB (ATI Wonder USB).
The Diamond 500 USB seems to have clearer signs than the ATI AIW USB (ATI Wonder USB) - for example: letters, numbers - which can be simply because of the contrast of the background colors with the presented signs, but I'm not completely sure of not being that much more clear in Diamond 500 USB - maybe its value is not caused by contrast, or not just its value - it certainly don't matter as compared to the ATI 600 USB with ATI AIW USB (ATI Wonder USB), where the color difference is greater there. Colors in Diamond 500 USB and ATI AIW USB (ATI Wonder USB) are similar in terms of naturalness.

The Canopus NX looks the same as the ATI AIW USB (ATI Wonder USB) - although it can be very gentle if the Canopus was better, but almost imperceptibly in terms of the quality of the characters presented.

Canopus NX vs Diamond 500 USB - Diamond 500 USB as if it had clearer characters and better shades of white and slightly inferior blacks. Canopus NX - better color separation, where the Diamond 500 USB seems to blur a bit.

I don't know why the video for Canopus ADVC 300 is vibrating. It's really hard to tell if the ADVC 300 is better or the ATI 600 USB ... In some reason, probably one is better, the other worse and vice versa (I see it that way).

I may be wrong, but I would probably put together a list of the best of these devices in terms of the quality of the presented image, where the first four devices are very close to each other:
1. Diamond 500 USB
2. Canopus NX
3. ATI AIW USB (ATI Wonder USB)
4. ATI AIW 9600
5. ATI 600 USB [or vice
6. Canopus ADVC 300 versa]

-- merged --

In my opinion to show in practice differences would be the best option(captured VHS and showing from it the same screenshots or/and the same parts of movies). After all, the best that would be showing image screenshots showing these image comparisons of the same picture frames: Canopus ADVC(100, 110, 300)(DV AVI or DV) vs ATI AIW USB and ATI 600 USB(AVI, lossless) or the same parts of movies - for all - to VHS record converted to digital file - using the same equipment and settings everywhere on these connections and only changing converter(for example Canopus ADVC 300[with turning off all filters], 110 to ATI AIW USB). All in PAL system.
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  #12  
07-19-2019, 04:43 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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I have upload the samples without any comment and I'm really surprised what you see.

Never trust your eyes/hardware (monitor). I highly recommend to compare the capture files with the original mpg file. Put the files on the timeline of your editing software and use the vectorscope & waveform monitor to compare them.
Here for example pics from the black/white scene with the super black (0-16) & super white (235-255) luminance range.

Original MPG File.jpg

Here the demonstration what you should see on this picture.
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the diamond 500 clip the super black at 14 & the super white at 245
Original MPG File Super black & white demonstration.jpg

the canopus nx clip the super black at about 2 & super white at about 254
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the canopus advc 300 clip the super black at about 2 & super white at about 254
Diamond 500.jpg

the ATI AIW 9600 clip the super black at 16 & the super white at about 252
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the ATI AIW USB clip the super black at 16 &the super white at about 252
CanopusNX.jpg

the ATI 600 USB clip the super black part at 16 & capture the full range to 255
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this are the capture result with "DEFAULT" capture settings

you can try to make the super black/white part visible (to broadcast safe range 16-235) with the contrast/brightness sliders in virtual dub.

with the other test patters you can compare if the capture card, capture the full resolution (720x576) or you can see how the agc control work or the colours, sharpness, if the capture window is centered (have a look at the AIW 9600 file)....

The ATI 600 USB looks sharper as the other cards because the sharpness is at level 2 at the default settings, this is just digital sharpening which you should better do in the post production.

If you compare the files, remember the Canopus ADVC 300 file (DV) is bottom field first.

I have upload the test captures from a dvd and not from vhs because I can upload the original file too and you can see what the different cards capture.


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  #13  
07-19-2019, 05:10 PM
dima dima is offline
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I apologize for my lack of professionalism in assessing your previous materials. I do not know if I understand you correctly:
"I have upload the test captures from a dvd and not from vhs because I can upload the original file too and you can see what the different cards capture."

If so, how would you be able to extract from the VHS cassette sample fragments of some material and put here as a comparison of the same screenshots and / or the same parts of the film for at least: Canopus ADVC 300 (DV AVI, DV) (all filters disabled eg by Picture Controller 300 and image settings like: color, on the default), ATI AIW USB and ATI 600 USB (AVI, lossless for both) and for the rest if you want and you can do it.
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  #14  
07-19-2019, 05:19 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is online now
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So far, all nonsense. This thread has nothing to do with capturing from analog sources. MPG isn't analog. See, guys, analog video has constantly varying waveforms, changing noise patterns, has no pixels, and video moves around a lot which is what test patterns don't do. Apparently some people here don't know that mpg isn't analog. If you need samples of analog sources, try VHS, SVHS, VHS-C, video8, Betamax, or laserdisc. But MPG to make non-moving still images from pristine digital material and try to conjecture about analog to lossless or analog to lossy?????? No way. MPG doesn't even use the same collorspace as analog. Sorry to be hardnosed, but you're wasting your time.

For the past couple of days browsing this thread, I recalled now and then my adventure of a few years back with Canopus cards and retail and homemade VHS tapes. OMG, what a waste of time capturing that analog stuff to DV. It was so ugly and futile I almost gave up capturing for good until I found this forum's guides and learned to avoid getting suckered by video marketing hype, and commenced doing things the way the pros do. So, this thread was OK for a brief trip thru memory lane, but this repetition of lossless-vs-lossy debate every few months for the past 20 years is really tiresome.
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  #15  
07-19-2019, 06:21 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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The test files from dvd should show you the limitations of your hardware (capture card & monitor).
If the capture card can't record full range luminance (0-255) or can't record full resolution or just blur the picture or add other errors to the test files from dvd it will o the same with vhs content.

All USB captures devices I have had can only capture the luminnce range from 16-255.
The ATi 600 USB just oversharpen at default.
The ATI AIW 7200,9000,9600 resize the picture if captured with 704x576 to 700x576.

The thread starter ask for samples with PAL content. I have upload captures which were made always with the same hardware. I don't think he can find better samples but maybe you could upload samples, sanlyn?

If necessary Lord Smurf can delete the nonsens I have post.
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  #16  
07-19-2019, 06:56 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
All USB captures devices I have had can only capture the luminnce range from 16-255.
The ATi 600 USB just oversharpen at default.
The ATI AIW 7200,9000,9600 resize the picture if captured with 704x576 to 700x576.
No, let's get serious. That has nothing to do with reality

LS, they're living in a different universe out there.
WTF is this guy talking about?

No, I lived thru the VHs->DV b.s./hype/fiction and have no patience or time for repeating the experience. Maybe someone out there has both analog and DV devices and can capture from the same source.

Only captures from 16-255? Really? On planet Earth?
Would you like to see a USB device that captured below-zero blacks and brighter than y=255? There are plenty posted in the forum. It's considered a typical newbie mistake and is usually corrected in Avisynth/YUV before doing anything else with the video.

Oops. Lemme partially correct that. The ATI USB 600 clips at y=16 and won't capture anything below that. Technically we say it "crushes blacks". Otherwise it can capture illegal signal levels just as well as anything else, especially if you don't know what the hell you're doing.

-- merged --

OK, after a couple of cups of Tension Tamer tea, I'll try broadening my outlook on this thread. I get the idea from several people that a workflow from capture to restoration/repair to final encoding hasn't really taken place -- or if it has, what was learned from the process? Can anyone in this thread answer the question: what does restoration and repair consist of? What are the properties of the required media? What software and what filters are used, and why? What analysis tools or other objective/aesthetic analysis or measurement tools are used to determine what gets done and what gets fixed, and what remains as-is? What does "editing' entail, precisely? If the final product looks pretty much like the initial input, what's the point of capturing to a PC in the first place other than chopping things into pieces and putting them together again? What's the purpose of capture devices and computer codecs when DVD recorders and PVR's are available, along with smart rendering NLE's and lots of free disc burners, cheap HDD storage, and video servers? It seems that for many users the workflow consists mostly of memorizing which icons to click and in which sequence to click them. How do you judge your own results? What do you compare them to? You're not a professional, you don't have pro gear, you don't have pro training, but in light of what pro's do and the results they get, how do your methods and results compare? Where do your results fall short, and why? If the capture device is basically chosen for its ability to cover your butt and mask your visual and technical shortcomings, make all the decisions for you, and correct your mistakes and omissions so that no further work or improvement or learning is required, why do you need a/v forums when the product's user manual has all you need to know? Why not take your tapes down to Walmart? What would be different about what they do and what you would do? Other than cut-and-join and posting on YouTube, what comes after capture?
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  #17  
07-19-2019, 11:40 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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at Sanlyn: Have you download the files and compared them or you just call them bullshit?

Put them on the timeline of your editing software and compare them and then post your opinion or what you see.

For me I prefer a capture card which can capture the luminance range from 0-255 and the full resolution 720x576. What is lost during capture you can't get back in post production.

If you have read my comment I have written this are the "default" settings. You can try to make the range from 0-16 & 235 to 255 visible with the brightness & contrast slider. This is what you do with the histogramm with virtual dub. It looks like you always know what you record, where the blackest or the whitest part is on your tape to make the correction.

I correct the levels to broadcast safe range (16-235) in the post production.

ATI 600 USB: I have captured another sample with sharpness level 0. These looks more like the original.

I don't know why you always talk about Canopus=lossy DV?

I don't recommend to capture with the ADVC300. The ADVC have well known issues(like the audio bug and others....).

The Canopus NX capture in YUV and not DV!

I have made about 20 test captures from different cards (ATI AIW, tv cards with BT878 & Philips 7134, Viewcast Osprey 240e, Pinnacle USB 500, Blackmagic Intesity Shuttle, USB card with EMPIA chipset to name a few...) if I compare them on the timeline of my editing software you'll see that the ATI AIW capture is smaller. I have to stretch the 704x576 capture to 700x576 to get the them result as the original
file. These happens only to all the 3 AIW 7200,9000,9600 cards.

I don't think many people have the possibility to compare their captures with different cards.
The test patters include the "Hello World" part. If you can't read Hello world, your computer monitor or tv can't show the levels from 0-16 & 235-255. This I think is important to know if you edit your videos later.

Another thing I have left off is the audio part which would be important too for the capture card. But if the video part is worse....
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  #18  
07-20-2019, 06:09 AM
enois enois is offline
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at Bogilein: i don't know exactly wich is your capture flow, but remember that in PAL standard ATI AIW have resoultion/aspect ratio issue:

ATI MMC and 704/720 resolution thoughts?

to obtain correct aspect ratio for PAL standard, in VirtualDub is needed setting the capture resolution to 720x576 and than crop 16 pixel (8 for each side) to obtain 704x576 that fit AIW specification, but with correct aspect ratio.
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07-20-2019, 02:02 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
at Sanlyn: Have you download the files and compared them or you just call them bullshit?
The videos aren't BS. They're just videos. The BS is your doing. The test panels did help me decide that none of the cards you used except one would be suitable for the VHS sources I encounter. As for your past captures you mentioned, the use of cards designed for digital and digital HD sources has been well covered and discounted as less than ideal for analog SD work.

I notice in the videos that there is no motion. I know that sounds obvious, but you don't seem to think it's relevant. Don't you analyze videos that have motion? (I'm sure you do. It's a rhetorical question). I mean, for want of a better term, "real" video, the kind people sit and watch in front of TV or in a movie theater or with family videos and the kids? How do these cards respond with motion and noise that doesn't stay still? How do they react to tape noise? How do you judge skin tones and color balance in your timeline? Do you know how to work with video in anything other than an RGB timeline editor? I assume that your editor isn't the tool you use for repairs. What about excessive combing or tape noise levels or telecine effects? What does the tape noise look like and what type of filter do you think you'll need to calm noise on motion and camera pans? Excessive grain? How about noise in shadow areas? What would your timeline tell you about chroma noise, Chroma shift, bleed, or chroma displacement? Dropout problems? Spots? Horizontal ripples? Frame hop, jitter, luminance or chroma flicker, over- or under-saturated segments? How do your reds look -- are they supposed to be really red or do they tend toward yellow or purple? What can your timeline tell you about consistent white balance, gray balance, and black balance (how determined and corrected?). What about DCT ringing or sharpening halos? Any signs of chroma or luma ghosting at scene changes? Motion smearing or edge ghosts? Signs of previous digital processing in the mastering of the original tape (how can you recognize it)? Any posterizing, pixelation effects, clay-face? Hanover bars? Backlight effects or over contrasty front lighting? Camera exposure problems, CMOS noise, shadow range noise problems? Block noise, banding or hard gradient edges? How does your timeline editor correct for these and what do you do about it? Any border stains, skin tone discoloration/blotching or similar color problems? Edge noise with color anomalies along contrasting edges? Broken lines or edges, line twitter? Shifts in color balance and/or levels from scene to scene? Mosquito noise (common with DV)? How do you detect and fix these problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
I correct the levels to broadcast safe range (16-235) in the post production.
That can be tweaked later but 16-235 is the limitation during capture. You shouldn't try to make that correction in your RGB timeline. It has to be tweaked in the original YUV colorspace. Do you know why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
I don't know why you always talk about Canopus=lossy DV?

I don't recommend to capture with the ADVC300. The ADVC have well known issues(like the audio bug and others....).

The Canopus NX capture in YUV and not DV!
Canopus encodes everything to lossy DV internally, before capture. It's a DV card, dude. And what did your timeline editor tell you about the codec used for your Canopus captures? Canopus used their proprietary codec with a fourCC code of CDVC. It's otherwise known as "Canopus DV". It is a lossy codec. Not only that, but Canopus always renders botton field first, even if the original PAL VHS is top field first, and this field reversal often has noisy playback phase problems that can't be corrected later.

The text below is a MediaInfo readout of tech properties of your Canopus capture. The relevant data sections are in blue.
Code:
General
Complete name                            : J:\forum\faq\dima\Test File Canopus ADVC 300.avi
Format                                   : AVI
Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
Commercial name                          : DV
File size                                : 72.9 MiB
Duration                                 : 21s 240ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Constant
Overall bit rate                         : 28.8 Mbps
Writing library                          : VirtualDub build 32842/release

Video
ID                                       : 0
Format                                   : DV
Codec ID                                 : CDVC
Codec ID/Info                            : Canopus DV (DV)
Codec ID/Hint                            : Canopuson yoy
Duration                                 : 21s 240ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 24.4 Mbps
Encoded bit rate                         : 28.8 Mbps
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 25.000 fps
Standard                                 : PAL
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Bottom Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 2.357
Time code of first frame                 : 00:22:09:19
Time code source                         : Subcode time code
Stream size                              : 72.9 MiB (100%)
The readout for your Canopus NX capture looks incomplete to me. The NX cap seems recompressed with Lagarith. If it hasn't been recompressed, why doesn't it have the same kind or style of capture data as the other captures? Tech data on that NX capture looks rather suspicious to me. What happened to the original capture?

Isn't your MPG lossy YV12 and top field first? How would that relate to YUY2 analog video instead of pristine digital source? Do your capture cards respond in the same way? The MPG uses long-obsolete MPEG-1 L2 audio. What does your timeline tell you about the properties of your MPEG "original": ?
Code:
General
Complete name                            : J:\forum\faq\dima\Original MPG Test File.mpg
Format                                   : MPEG-PS
File size                                : 21.4 MiB
Duration                                 : 21s 216ms
Overall bit rate                         : 8 472 Kbps

Video
ID                                       : 224 (0xE0)
Format                                   : MPEG Video
Format version                           : Version 2
Format profile                           : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP                    : Yes
Format settings, Matrix                  : Custom
Format settings, GOP                     : M=3, N=15
Format settings, picture structure       : Frame
Duration                                 : 21s 200ms
Bit rate                                 : 8 000 Kbps
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Frame rate                               : 25.000 fps
Standard                                 : PAL
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Top Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.772
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00:00
Time code source                         : Group of pictures header
GOP, Open/Closed                         : Open
GOP, Open/Closed of first frame          : Closed
Stream size                              : 20.3 MiB (95%)

Audio
ID                                       : 192 (0xC0)
Format                                   : MPEG Audio
Format version                           : Version 1
Format profile                           : Layer 2
Duration                                 : 21s 216ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 256 Kbps
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 663 KiB (3%)
Attached is MediaInfo Reports.zip, a collection of MediaInfo text files for all of the videos you posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
The Canopus NX capture in YUV and not DV!
What are you talking about? DV is YUV. What type of colorspace do you think DV uses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
What is lost during capture you can't get back in post production.
Correct. That's why people don't capture to lossy codecs for use in restoration projects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
if I compare them on the timeline of my editing software you'll see that the ATI AIW capture is smaller.
This one made me laugh -- out loud, seriously. My ATI captures are NTSC 720x480. I have over a dozen frame choices available. Have you seen the Virtualdub dialog below?


If you're setting this up and you still get a different frame size, something is amiss and you should fix it. The ATI 600 worked properly for me and for millions of others in both PAL and NTSC. So do my other ATi cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
I have to stretch the 704x576 capture to 700x576 to get the them result as the original file.
700x576? Is that a typo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
at Sanlyn: Have you download the files and compared them or you just call them bullshit?
To answer that one again, I did a lot more than that. I looked at them as YUV originals and examined them that way with various analysis tools. The image below is a frame from the ATi 9600 capture. It's not a "screen shot". it's a direct frame copy from the capture you posted. The data readings and the histogram are directly from YUV, not RGB. I want to know what the video is doing in YUV before your timeline editor screws it up with sloppy RGB conversions.





The test patch with the pluges was more valuable. I have no choice but to agree with you that if a card won't capture many image elements, the card is useless. The colors above look pretty soiled and poorly rendered, but we've known that about the 9600 for a long time. It does indeed capture values below y=16 and above y=235 bit does some clipping at both point (seen the YUv histogram and in absence of detail in the white and black pluges). In fact none of the black pluges in any of other test samples have satisfactory black detail, so I suspect the pluge rather than all the cards.

The ATI 600 USB test panel:


Notice that the 600 exceeds y=235 but still retains some detail in the white pluge panel. No detail in the blacks, but it's already known that the ATI 600 clips at y=16 before the signal reaches the capture software. If you glance at the matching dframe for the VC500 you'll see that the vC500 maintains bright details about as well as the ATi 600 does but doesn't clip blacks. Colors are more pure with the 600. Another assumption I'm making is that you've often used your editor's pixel reader to analyze actual RGB color values in those chroma patches.

As it is, neither my clients nor I spend much time with test patterns. We're more interested in learning what's wrong and what's right with lossless captures of conventional video and what can be done with them. For several days I've worked on a VHS movie-to-digital project for a local film society. I don't see how your editor or test panels could help with that, other than suggestions some cards to avoid. The French movie with subtitles is on Korean DVD but looks worse than the VHS tape, which itself has lots of problems. The Lagarith YUY2 sample attached has correct capture levels made with an ATI AIW 9600XT. It's typical of many warmish, dimly lighted interiors and night scenes in the film. One challenge is keeping a scene's startup levels when the scene later brightens (as shown in the small image below) when the room's drapes are drawn open and the scene explodes with brights...




....Also, the VHS is undersaturated in several segments. It will look even brighter and less saturated on TV. It will look even brighter and less saturated on TV. If you "correct" the color balance in the darker frames the colors will look wrong in the bright frames. And VHS has higher noise levels in dark frames. What can your editor and test panels tell you about working through those problems? What card would you suggest for a typical problem VHS like this?

That's only the beginning of the glitches including artifacts from a bad digital mastering job on the movie's journey from film to VHS. The original encoder imbedded jitter into many scenes. If you want more bad video to play with there is 480mb YUY2 at Mediafire in my pro-level account (no popups or ads on downloads) at https://www.mediafire.com/file/rtcyx...mple2.avi/file. One way your test patches helped me and my friends in the film society with similar movies and their noisy family videos is that I wouldn't choose any of the cards you used except the VC500, which I already own. The society projects movies onto a 100-inch screen in a small auditorium -- Would you advise adding DV data loss and more DV compression artifacts to this movie? Or using a capture card with anemic color (ATI 9000)? Or one that clips darks at y=16?


Attached Images
File Type: png set custom video format.png (17.4 KB, 61 downloads)
File Type: jpg ATI 9600 YUV pluge and readings.jpg (110.0 KB, 62 downloads)
File Type: jpg ATi 600 YUV pluge panels.jpg (59.1 KB, 59 downloads)
File Type: jpg TMT2k scene brightness change.jpg (23.5 KB, 59 downloads)
Attached Files
File Type: zip Mediainfo Reports.zip (5.0 KB, 0 downloads)
File Type: avi TMT2k Sample.avi (88.63 MB, 0 downloads)
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  #20  
07-20-2019, 03:12 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
What are you talking about? DV is YUV. What type of colorspace do you think DV uses?
The Canopus NX is a pci or pcie (depending on the version) analog capture card, not a firewire box like the ADVC models.
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