Disk space to capture losslessly in AVI?

[dima]

1. How many GB of space takes 1 hour of movie(audio and video) captured from a VHS tape to a digital file(in AVI, lossless) using VirtualDub and using the "best" settings ? How much maximum GB 1 hour can it take in this case ?
It's about the PAL system and capture resolution: 720 x 576 with for example ATI AIW USB (and/or ATI 600 USB).

2. For example: my drive has less than 50 GB of free space and a total capacity of 60 GB - this is not enough(for example, a 3-hour movie). And just because of the space that takes lossless(AVI) capturing the signal from VHS to a digital file I don't know if a good way would be to connect via USB (2.0 ?) to a laptop(which has USB only in 2.0) external disk(even SSD with capacity for example: 240 GB) with adequate capacity ? However, is such a disk connection(via USB) and capturing directly to it from for example ATI AIW USB(via USB) is inappropriate for the good of the data being captured ? Is it best to have a built-in disk - even HDD, but built-in ?

[lordsmurf]

Lossless Huffyuv is about 35gb/hour.
Lossless Lagarith is about 25gb/hour, but has more CPU overhead that may drop frames.

"about" is because it's not exact. The compression is data, not visual, and can vary. An active detailed scene takes more than a black or blue VCR menu screen. For example, for Huffyuv, if the video is all action, probably 45gb/hour. If talking heads on a new program, probably 30gb/hour.

USB cannot be used. USB goes through the CPU, and is not sustained. Expect massive frame drops. USB is fine for ingest/capture hardware, but the data write for hard drives is not fast enough.

Internal HDD required for capturing.

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Lossless Huffyuv is about 35gb/hour.
Lossless Lagarith is about 25gb/hour, but has more CPU overhead that may drop frames.

"about" is because it's not exact. The compression is data, not visual, and can vary. An active detailed scene takes more than a black or blue VCR menu screen. For example, for Huffyuv, if the video is all action, probably 45gb/hour. If talking heads on a new program, probably 30gb/hour.

Those numbers seem a little high. Huffyuv SD averages about 30GB/hr from VHS, even when the data has a lot of noise. Otherwise I agree, Lagarith is rather tough on a CPU for capture (but you'll need it for intermediate processing) and USB is asking for trouble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dima

my drive has less than 50 GB of free space and a total capacity of 60 GB - this is not enough(for example, a 3-hour movie).

You could use 50-60GB for storing a capture and some of its working intermediate edits. It's not enough for a 3-hour movie. In really not even enough for a trypical 2-hour editing project. By the time you hit 95% drive usage you can count on lockups and a broken drive, losing everything.

You can't use a laptop for video work. Or, let's put it this way -- you can, but you can also try climb Everest in your bare feet and undies. Laptop display panels are also tortuous for video. I don't know why anyone would try it.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

Those numbers seem a little high.

Not for me. Based on many computers, many sources, over the past 15 years, that's my experience. Sometimes it's less, but more often it would be like 40-45gb/hour, and that really screws up drive space calculations.

Quote:

By the time you hit 95% drive usage you can count on lockups and a broken drive, losing everything.

Fragmentation also matters. Some drives start to lock up at 80%.

But I've never seen a "broken" drive, though unbootable is possible (fixable by another boot device, manually clean stuffed drive).

Quote:

You can't use a laptop for video work.
Laptop display panels are also tortuous for video. I don't know why anyone would try it.

There are higher-end Dell/Sony/etc laptops with IPS calibratable screens, eSATA, USB3, XP or Win7 x64, etc. I use a pair of these as needed. These were the highest end laptops for $1.5+ and sell used for about $650+. Those are mostly for capturing USB, not editing (though it can be done).

[dima]

I do not know if the best option would be to change the name of this thread, because I would like to talk a little bit about other things, but close to this one.

[We are talking about capturing the signal from VHS tapes into a digital file in the best image (and sound) quality - lossless - in the PAL system - resolution: 720 x 576 via the converter: ATI AIW USB via the program: VirtualDub].

1. Capture by HuffYUV (lossless) from what I know will not lose anything on the image quality compared to if I capture uncompressed (and in dodoatku I save space)?
So you know from experience that due to the lack of deterioration of image quality and the place that saves this codec (HuffYUV) from the uncompressed signal, it is the best option to capture the image?
Because Lagarith can cause more problems?
Is there a difference in the image quality between HuffYUV and Lagarith?
Through VirtualDub, HuffYUV is saved in the container: AVI ?

In which codec through VirtualDub simultaneously capture sound: PCM uncompressed?

2. Basic technical parameters of the hardware and system for ATI AIW USB.
To best capture the signal from VHS tapes to a digital file (lossless, AVI) using VirtualDub via the device: ATI AIW USB is best to use:

Windows XP: Home Edition or Professional(any special version, add-on, e.g. Service Pack 3 ?) ?
Windows XP: x32 or x64?
USB: 2.0 is maximum enough or 1.1? (in 3.0 of what I know these devices do not work) In what USB version does this USB device work (ATI AIW USB)?

Do not all these things matter much? Maybe some others matter ?

3. I would like to use laptop only to capture image and sound:

HP 6930P laptop
Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo P8400:
2 cores, 2.26 GHz, processor cache: 2 MB or 3 MB.
Graphic layout: Intel (at the moment I know only about it).
RAM memory: 4 GB RAM (DDR2)
Disk: 240 GB (SSD) (SATA II) (of which the system takes up to 10 GB unless).

Regarding disk space: After capturing the signal, the material would be transfer to another computer that would be used for editing. Also "all the time" would be a place for further recordings on this laptop.

I can change Windows XP - to any version, combination.

Has the parameters of this laptop to work without problems in the conditions I am writing about ? What do you think about it ?

Or possibly:
Dell D620 laptop
Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo T5600:
2 cores, 1.83 GHz, processor cache: 2 MB.
Graphics: Intel 945GM
RAM memory: 4 GB RAM (DDR2)
Disk: 240 GB (SSD) (SATA II).

I am more willing for this first: HP.

4. After capturing (eg in HuffYUV), I would like to edit the recording a bit, for example, by cutting out, inserting the appropriate fragments, changing some colors, and maybe sharpness. After that I would like to save the already finished material losslessly, but at the same time in codec, which will work on most devices such as TV sets, decoders, computers ?
In which codec then write this material and through what program ?
I would like to add that the program I prefer is Sony Vegas Pro 12(when it comes to editing and the like) - so if possible, I would like to do it with this program. Unfortunately, from what I know, there are no HuffYUV or Lagarith codecs in Sony Vegas Pro 12 in the AVI container (wanting to save the already finished material) - those that are - are not mobile enough to work without any problems on different devices. What do you suggest to finally lose the quality as little as possible - or not lose it all (lossless - final file that works on most devices) ?
[Probably the best in terms of quality and the least space-consuming codec in the Sony Vegas Pro 12 in the AVI container is: Microsoft Video 1. So that results from my tests and observations. Maybe wrong.].

-- merged --

Can someone give me some tips, help on the above my post...(http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post62724) ?

Regarding the second point (2). Perhaps the best version of the system for the described capturing (in the HuffYUV codec) would be the SP2 version of the Windows XP, not the SP3 ? I have read something like this here, for example: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post58113

Regarding the first (1) and fourth (4) points: I solved this "problem" (I gained some knowledge in these matters), but just like from what I read and saw with my own eyes: HuffYUV through Sony Vegas Pro 12 changes colors to the original, actually it probably does Vegas, although from what I noticed it for some codec changes color, and for others not.
Besides, from what I know, it records colors only in RGB (eg through HuffYUV), not in YUV (4:2:2), therefore probably passing between the colors and different programs the same - the image quality will be lost.

[lordsmurf]

Please don't pull a gamemaniaco, and make me repeat myself. That aggravates me.

Yes, lossless same visual quality as uncompressed.
Huffuv, because Lagarith can be harder on CPU, cause dropped frames.
Huffyuv codec is in AVI wrapper/container.

PCM uncompressed 48kHz stereo 16-bit.

Windowsw XP x86 is required for AIW. No other OS, no x64. (Technically, AIW is possible as AVI only with 32-bit Vista/7, but it's a manual install job, and is not reliable.)

USB1 is too slow.
USB2 is fine, card designed for 2.0
USB3 is obviously fine as well, backwards compatible with 2.

Your laptop seems fine for capture. I have a similar HP that captures well (though I upgraded to a better Dell with calibratable IPS, eSATA, USB3, SSD, etc). Worst part about a laptop is shiny screens, non-IPS, can make it hard to judge color/contrast., so acn't tweak via proc amps on it.

Editing on another system is fine. I do that with Win7 i7-6700K system, Win7 x64.

Vegas is fine for editing Huffyuv, codec needs to be installed. Just re-save as lossless again.

XP SP3 is just SP2 with "security" junk that can cause dropped frames.

Huffyuv can record either RGB or YUV, default should be set YUV, but just verify codec options in VirtualDub.

[dima]

Ok, that is for ATI AIW USB only x32 version of Windows XP is involved.

1. Which version of Windows XP will be the best to capture: Home or Professional ? Does it matter ?

2. And which version in terms of SP: SP1, SP2 or SP3 ? From what I know and what I think is probably the best option would be SP2 ?
[If I read it well, it says here that security-related things have already been added along with SP2, not SP3(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP) - I may be wrong. Only that perhaps the SP3 went even further in these matters than SP2.]

3. "Vegas is fine for editing Huffyuv, codec needs to be installed. Just re-save as lossless again."

Only that after installing this codec (HuffYUV*) - this program (Vegas) renders the movie in RGB - even though in the settings of the codec (HuffYUV) in Vegas it is possible to change: "convert to YUY2" - this option returns to the default (predict gradient)(best)) after choosing: "convert to YUY2".
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...as#post2221728

* HuffYUV in version: v2.1.1 from here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide....html#post9485

[jwillis84]

1. Home or Pro

My opinion is Home is better, because (a) video capture with TV Wonder or All in Wonder was more a consumer thing, debatable (b) Professional added the support for network Domain joins and Domain Policy enforcement, tweaked towards things not needed for capture (c) it probably doesn't matter..

2. SP0, SP1, SP1a, SP2, SP3, SP4(unofficial) - from a lot of personal testing recently I have been forced to realized, there are (two) distinct CDROM ISO images, and one (Half-baked) driver release on the AMD website. Stay away from SP1a (if you can avoid it) its unstable, you don't need SP3 or SP4(unofficial). SP0 has limitations because XP was not quite finished so didn't have support for larger partitions than 137 GB out of box, or USB2.0 out of box and many programs balk at SP0 as being below their minimum requirements for install. SP1 and SP2 are optimium.

Which you use depends on the CDROM Image that you have.

Online downloadable CDROM images often do not have the disc label, but you can sometimes get this by selecting it with ImageBurn and reading the details. the Last three digits 100 or 200 indicate which SP version they will install by default without an error. So use 100 with SP1 (or SP0) use 200 with SP2 (or SP3) .. the AMD website download is not a "complete" set of drivers, catalyst support agents and multimedia center install.. its a source of last resort. Mostly the AMD download will get it running in VirtualDub and leave you a little blind to all the particulars of the device. DFAQ has the iso images available, seek them out.. they are well worth the effort. I'd also recommend burning them to cdrom media and keeping them with the device in the future. Installing from virtual cdrom drives isn't always reliable.

SP4(unofficial) is a "fan" release, mostly to add in a new kernel that was never released by Microsoft. They did this to add in kernel APIs which were mandatory for many 32 bit programs released after XP was de-supported.. its totally unnecessary for video capture and can have backwards support problems for other programs. If you know nothing about it you don't need this release and should avoid it.

SP3 "feels" modern.. and I use it a lot for other things.. but its practically a different operating system. There is a lot of nostalgia and pent up favoritism towards it. But really.. my opinion.. is to avoid it on a capture rig. All of the ATI AIW cards up to the X600, X800, X1800, X1900 PCI generation had been released and tested by the time SP2 came out.. its more than sufficient.

SP1 or SP1a - two words.. Java lawsuit. The original SP1 release was good and stable and useful, and I favor it over SP2 because SP2 included the popup notifications from the new Action center and other annoying stuff. But as part of the settlement of that lawsuit Microsoft had to "scrub" all downloads and copies of SP1 from the Internet. It remains a hard thing to get a hold of. More often miss-labeled SP1 downloads are actually SP1a.. which was not well tested and ripping out the Java component broke things. Your probably better off going with SP2 unless your cdrom ISO image is version 100.. and then your probably better off finding a cdrom ISO image 200 and running with SP2. Its simply easier.

3. vegas

I love Vegas.. and I'm happy to hear it works with Huffyuv.. but I didn't know that.. great to hear.

4. cooling fan

Seek out an AC Infinity USB fan with rubber feet. You can set the box on top of this vibration resistant platform to push air up at the bottom of the gray box and keep it cool. This is optional, but in my mind its optimal. The USB connector conveniently fits in a spare USB port from your computer.. so you don't have to use another wall outlet port.

[dima]

jwillis84 thank you for your reply.

I think the most about Windows XP Professional, among others due to the support of two and more processors (I do not know if it's about cores) that Professional can do, and Home from what I know is not. I'm also worried if other functions needed to intercept the signal via ATI AIW USB would work properly on it (Home).
I would be more for the Home version if I knew that I could install everything on it without problems and run what I need to capture through ATI AIW USB and VirtualDub and if I knew what it is like with this processor reading. If I had one: Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo P8400: 2 cores, 2.26 GHz, cache: 2 MB or 3 MB, would it make me (Home) completely read and use it ... [and the laptop I mentioned first in one of the above posts].

I'm most for the choice of the version: SP2.

What do you mean to write about CDROM ? It is important on what carrier I will have drivers and other (if necessary) things needed to install ATI AIW USB and its operation and cooperation with the system and other programs?

[jwillis84]

More Cores are more trouble than they are worth. They produce more Interrupts and distract the system from performing (one) function. It is not as good idea to focus on more (is better) its not in this case. Streamline the system, having multiple cores "sharing" the memory, "sharing" the hard disk.. piling on top of the Interrupt controller and task switching like a maniac.. is not good.

Multiple Cores were also not handled well in that times period, going from Multiple processors to Multiple Cores was trying to shift the blame of poor firmware and poor drivers for the most part. It was years before they came out with Four Cores and more.. they didn't know what they were doing. Multitasking on a capture rig is just asking for trouble, video capture is a "real time" process.. it needs singular focus. A Core2Duo is almost overkill since you won't be using the other core or hyperthreading or mega pipe-lining microcode instructions. Its messy.

Home was cheaper, and had things not allowed in the Pro Edition. Professional was striped down compared to Home for video and entertainment things. You don't have to use Home.. I only use it with the ATI AIW 2.0N.. Pro is just a weird Office edition tailored for Microsoft Office and Active Directory.. in my opinion.

I don't know what I can add about your question about CDROM.. there are two versions of the original disc. I tried to explain if you use the wrong disc on the wrong version of XP it will fail partway through an install of all of the device drivers and software from that disc. Snapshots of the disc are called ISO image files. They can be burned to blank CDROM media to recreate discs, or used as virtual discs to install the software without burning new discs. Virtual disc installs were rare at that time in history and the installer software on the disc image fails sometimes. Recreating the discs to install from a real CDROM drive is better.

I only offered suggestions.

People often disagree with me.. I am okay with that.

[dima]

Thnak you for your reply and information.

jwillis84 and others.

But do you know if Windows XP Home(and SP2, x32) read all of this "my" processor and rest of equipment of this HP laptop I wrote about ? I wrote more about it in the posts above.

Because how I was read ATI AIW USB and VirtualDub(and them components) should work without problems on system like this one and with that values(RAM, processor etc.).

[lordsmurf]

I've advised folks to use Windows XP Pro SP2 for 10 years now. Not changing the advice. It works best with ATI AIW.
- non-SP is too early, lacks things.
- SP1 isn't liked by later AIW
- SP2 is ideal
- SP3 is just SP2 with clutter

Don't be wowed by more cores. Pay attention to the per-core performance. The best AIW systems, like all of mine, are built on the highest end Intel Core 2 Duo supported by Asrock boards. Those allow for 15-20mbps MPEG captures via AIT MMC, with no dropped frames. But if just capturing lossless, HDD is the bottleneck, not CPU.

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I've advised folks to use Windows XP Pro SP2 for 10 years now. Not changing the advice. It works best with ATI AIW.
- non-SP is too early, lacks things.
- SP1 isn't liked by later AIW
- SP2 is ideal
- SP3 is just SP2 with clutter

Don't be wowed by more cores. Pay attention to the per-core performance. The best AIW systems, like all of mine, are built on the highest end Intel Core 2 Duo supported by Asrock boards. Those allow for 15-20mbps MPEG captures via AIT MMC, with no dropped frames. But if just capturing lossless, HDD is the bottleneck, not CPU.

I have three dedicated VHS capture PC's and don't know which I favor most. The first one I built is XP/SP2 that I made 15 years ago from spare parts cannibalized from other PCs and a cheapo $50 Biostar motherboard. It has a slowpoke AMD 2GHz CPU and 2GB of RAM that's so old you can't buy it any more. The card inside is an AIW 7500 AGP I bought in 2001. I've captured hundreds of hours of VHS tape on that machine (and back then I also used it for Avisynth processing). It still works. No dropped frames or sync problems.

Capture PC #2 is another spare parts/new parts mix with the same cheapo Biostar board picked up in clearance sales and a similar AMD CPU. Built in 2007. No problems, and I just used it to capture 5 tapes a couple of weeks ago. The card is an AIW 9600XT AGP. I also use a Diamond VC500 which occasionally alternates between that machine and a Windows 7 PC. The one glitch I had when building this one was that the new cheapo power supply I purchased showed up DOA. But the seller replaced that quickly enough. The XP PC has SP3 -- I've never had any problems with it.

The last machine is an ancient, abandoned DELL Inspiron 4700 with an equally ancient Intel 2.5GHz single-core Pentium-4. The owner was going to ditch it in favor of a laptop, so I brought it home with its original system CD's. I've used it with the AIW 7500 AGP. And it has SP3. No problems. You can never tell what people are going to throw away that can still be useful one way or another. The Inspiron has an extra WD hard drive for capture that I cannibalized from another unwanted PC.

You can never tell how a PC setup system will perform, but if it's assembled and used correctly it shouldn't be a problem. That said, 5 years ago I built an i5 Intel XP system with a brand-new ASUS motherboard that went crapola 8 months later, then replaced it with a brand new ASRock premium board that went schizo after 18 months and burned up one my hard drives, and replaced that with a brand new Gigabyte board that just last month decided it wouldn't boot any more. The Gigabyte runs today with a used replacement board I found on eBay. And just in case, I picked up two more spare Gigabyte used boards that were being sold cheap and at least looked spotless and unmarked when they arrived (knock wood). Then I also have a new-ish Dell Windows 7 laptop whose desktop won't repaint properly until I use the right-click "Refresh" dialog, and I had to replace its slowpoke hard drive with a new WD 7200 rpm model. Then there's the also-new-ish Windows 10 HP laptop that's infuriating to use, and with every W10 update something else doesn't work any more. In any case, most of the vast collection of paid and free video software that runs on XP and even on Win7 doesn't stand a chance with Win10. What a waste.

I assume from these stories that components today aren't built as well as those of a few years back. It defies prediction that a cheap XP/Sp2 Home Edition PC shouldn't run for 15 years, but that old Biostar rig still groans a bit and starts up and captures perfectly. And it's a good thing, because I've run out of XP system CDs.

On the other hand....if you're using a laptop for capture I can only wish you the best of luck.

[dima]

Thank you all for your advice, information.