Any benefit to using an ES10/ES15 with a JVC S9800U?

[MadScientist]

I'm aware that the JVC S9800U has it's own built-in line TBC and that the Panasonic ES10/ES15 models also have a line TBC. But I still see posts where people are using the ES10/ES15 inline as a pass-through device with similar JVC S-VHS models with the JVC TBC turned Off. What exactly is the benefit of this? Is this only necessary when the JVC unit TBC isn't adequate enough?

[BarryTheCrab]

Some tapes have a wavy (and sometimes jumpy) appearance that DEMAND additional or alternative equipment. In my very humble opinion any advanced home user, semi-pro, or pro NEEDS an ES10-15 in their bag of tricks.

[MadScientist]

Ok that makes since then. So basically they are used for those "specific" tapes that need a little extra help.

So if I were to add an ES10/ES15 to my arsenal which would should I opt for? I know the ES10 is stronger than the ES15 but I recall seeing that it also has less quality than the ES15, is that correct? But being that the ES10/ES15 would only be used for those "specific" tapes, I'm thinking it would probably just be best to invest in an ES10 since I'd want the stronger unit to fix this "specific" issue. Thoughts?

[BarryTheCrab]

The ES doesn’t have a true TBC, but it sorta kinda does, according to the experts.

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadScientist

I know the ES10 is stronger than the ES15 but I recall seeing that it also has less quality than the ES15

It's the reverse. Video from the ES15 is less transparent than the ES10 with respect to the input signal. Both products will cause posterizing (clay-face effects) and ghosting if the DNR isn't disabled. DNR from the JVC is damaging enough without adding more in the pass-thru unit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadScientist

But being that the ES10/ES15 would only be used for those "specific" tapes, I'm thinking it would probably just be best to invest in an ES10 since I'd want the stronger unit to fix this "specific" issue.

Yep.

The ES10 and ES15 also have frame-level correction, as Barry noted. No, it won't correct macrovision or false copy protection errors, but it's otherwise a competent frame tbc. Use only if you need it. The less "stuff" you have in your capture chain, the better.

[MadScientist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryTheCrab

The ES doesn’t have a true TBC, but it sorta kinda does, according to the experts.

I know, "TBC'ish".

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

It's the reverse. Video from the ES15 is less transparent than the ES10 with respect to the input signal. Both products will cause posterizing (clay-face effects) and ghosting if the DNR isn't disabled. DNR from the JVC is damaging enough without adding more in the pass-thru unit.

Quoting LS from THIS THREAD he states...

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Technically, the ES10 is stronger than the ES15, but it can also have a bit more posterization as a result. But this is nitpick level. Only on the most severely signal-damaged tapes can you see the difference. In my collection of probably 1000 tapes, I may have 25 that rise to that level of fubarness. Those are nth gen copies of copies that I have from tape trading in the early/mid 90s.

Not saying you're wrong and he's right, but that's where I came up with the idea that the ES15 caused less posterization than the ES10.

I'm still unsure if I'm going to need an ES10/ES15 as I'm waiting for my JVC S9800 to be delivered so I can begin testing. I'm just trying research ahead of time just in case I need to order one. I just wanted to confirm whether I should be getting the ES10 or the ES15, which as you stated previously, I should just get the ES10 because I'm only going to be needing it with "specific" tapes, so obviously there's no sense in getting the ES15 when the ES10 is going to be better at fixing those "specific" issues. But that was my whole concern is whether the ES10 was going to be an overall better choice over the ES15.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadScientist

I'm aware that the JVC S9800U has it's own built-in line TBC and that the Panasonic ES10/ES15 models also have a line TBC. But I still see posts where people are using the ES10/ES15 inline as a pass-through device with similar JVC S-VHS models with the JVC TBC turned Off. What exactly is the benefit of this? Is this only necessary when the JVC unit TBC isn't adequate enough?

A basic workflow is VCR > TBC > capture card
The VCR is S-VHS VCR with line TBC to clean the image.
The TBC is external frame TBC to clean the signal.
You need both kinds of TBC for a quality experience, and quality captures.

The ES10/15 are mostly for anti-tearing, with line TBC disabled in VCR, before external TBC.

You can use the ES10/15 in place of a TBC, but it's very weak, not a true TBC, but rather a minimal TBC(ish). A true TBC(ish) involves the ES10/15 + DataVideo DVK/5000, which then makes it about 99% of true TBC quality, though still with posterization/etc drawbacks of the ES10/15.

If quality matters, get the full TBC.
If cost is a problem, remember to buy it, use it, then resell it. It's not a forever purchase, you don't stuff it into a drawer when done. It's a project based purchase, holds its value, and you resell when project is done. Some of like a rental. In fact, if you carry the purchase on a credit card for a few months, exactly like a rental.

DNR on the ES10/15 is always enabled. It's merely that it's much stronger with NR enabled. But even disabled, it's there. It causes motion artifacts similar to strong Avisynth filters (TTempSmooth, I think?)

Sometimes I feel like a used car salesman, but seriously: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/mark...bc-1000-a.html
Right now, I have some extra TBCs. Not just any TBCs, but the best ones that we need for this hobby. I know this will not last, all will eventually see, and TBCs are getting harder to find. At some point, when I'm out, folks doing DIY capture are going to be SOL. I have no idea what they're going to do. ES10/15 and pray, I guess?

Hopefully you don't run into dynamic drum issues with that 9800. My 9x00s are all down for the count not, I've entirely switched the the V10 chassis decks. A couple post-9800 perform better than the 9800 anyway, give the AG-1980 a good run for its money on EP and VHS-C.

[jwillis84]

The dynamic drum issue was on my mind as well.

I have a great 7800, but also one 7800 with a dead drum.

Been watching 3D printing tech quite a bit, the stereo lithographic vats for $200 have caught my eye. Fidelity is very high and the plastic is UV cured and looks really strong. One day perhaps we'll be able to print new gears... but who am I kidding, what a pipe dream.

[MadScientist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

A basic workflow is VCR > TBC > capture card
The VCR is S-VHS VCR with line TBC to clean the image.
The TBC is external frame TBC to clean the signal.
You need both kinds of TBC for a quality experience, and quality captures.

The ES10/15 are mostly for anti-tearing, with line TBC disabled in VCR, before external TBC.

You can use the ES10/15 in place of a TBC, but it's very weak, not a true TBC, but rather a minimal TBC(ish). A true TBC(ish) involves the ES10/15 + DataVideo DVK/5000, which then makes it about 99% of true TBC quality, though still with posterization/etc drawbacks of the ES10/15.

Yeah, I've read your posts religiously regarding TBC's, however, as I stated in my other thread, my initial captures that I did with my "crappy workflow" are already coming out acceptable to me, no jitter, tearing, sync issues at all on several of the tapes I tested with. Only two of them so far have about a 1/4" of tearing going on at the very bottom of the video, not something I'm concerned with whatsoever. These tapes are in very good condition and have been kept in a climate controlled room for over 20+ years, so I guess that probably has a lot to do with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Hopefully you don't run into dynamic drum issues with that 9800. My 9x00s are all down for the count not, I've entirely switched the the V10 chassis decks. A couple post-9800 perform better than the 9800 anyway, give the AG-1980 a good run for its money on EP and VHS-C.

Well I hope I don't either, I didn't even know that was something to be aware of. I chose that specific model based off of your suggestions in the VCR Buying Guide thread. I didn't see any mention of "dynamic drum issues" regarding those dynamic drum units. What are the symptoms of these "dynamic drum issues" so that I know what to look out for? The seller has a 30 day return policy so I can always return the unit and get somthing else. So should I just have gotten a JVC S-VHS unit that doesn't have a dynamic drum?

[hodgey]

Quote:

These tapes are in very good condition and have been kept in a climate controlled room for over 20+ years, so I guess that probably has a lot to do with it.

Quite possible. If the tapes medium, and the original recording was very good, the issues that TBCs fix will be less present. Granted, the capture card (Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-950Q) you were using has some uncommon Auvitek chips, that there seems to be very little info about. maybe you're lucky and they have some more stabilizing cirtuitry than most other capture devices have. There is usually at least small degree of horizontal jitter even on good tapes with most capture cards with out any form of TBC. Feel free to post a comparison of the workflows.

Quote:

The dynamic drum issue was on my mind as well..

In case you missed it, a forum user here came up with a mod/workaround for broken dynamic drum systems.

[MadScientist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

Quite possible. If the tapes medium, and the original recording was very good, the issues that TBCs fix will be less present. Granted, the capture card (Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-950Q) you were using has some uncommon Auvitek chips, that there seems to be very little info about. maybe you're lucky and they have some more stabilizing cirtuitry than most other capture devices have. There is usually at least small degree of horizontal jitter even on good tapes with most capture cards with out any form of TBC. Feel free to post a comparison of the workflows.

Oh rest assured, there is SOME horizontal jitter present, but it's very minimal and "acceptable" in my opinion. I'm pretty confident that the S9800 will really help to alleviate that issue though, but I won't know until it arrives and I test it out. I will definitely be sure to save some before and after samples to post up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

In case you missed it, a forum user here came up with a mod/workaround for broken dynamic drum systems.

Thanks for that link! I will definitely use that method to disable the Dynamic Drum if it ends up being an issue. Are you aware of what symptoms a bad Dynamic Drum would cause so I know what to watch out for?

[lordsmurf]

@jwillis: 9800 has dynamic drum, 7800 does not.

@MadScientist: I guess as long as you're fine with the quality loss, and will be the only viewer, that's fine. The problems come from trying to share those videos with others, be it online, family, friends, etc, as you will get fair criticism for the quality loss. I detest all those "look at this rare footage!" Youtubers that have butchered the video with bad gear and bad methods. The term "assclown" is pretty appropriate for those specific Youtube folks.

[jwillis84]

odd.. I'll have to look again.. could have sworn those looked like gears