Quantcast VHS-C tape damaged physically? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
07-29-2019, 03:54 AM
TONYFRANCE TONYFRANCE is offline
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Hello everyone !

I received a JVC HR-S7900U from eBay.
I need it for a VHS-C with precious content (1h of behind the scenes).
But the tape is in really bad shape.

No mold. No dirt. I took the tape to a company to clean it with a TapeChek Cleaner 470 RTi.

But physically, there's a lot of damage.
Here's the equipment I use : JVC HR-S7900U + Vortex TBC + Canopus ADVC110

I disabled every option from the VCR. I just did two digital transfer : with and without the TBC of JVC.
Some sequences are better with and without. It's not perfect... it's a mess.

But what about the rest.
Video Calibration ? Video Stabilizer ? Are they useful with a damaged tape ?
Do I need to let the JVC TBC on, when I use Calibration or Stabilizer ?

I have everything during the film : "lines" on the screen, jumping picture, and at the end of the tape, the distorted top (TBC on/off, I can't correct it).
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  #2  
07-29-2019, 04:36 AM
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BarryTheCrab BarryTheCrab is offline
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Panasonic ES-10 or ES-15.
I just had an EP tape that went bonkers with my TBC-1000, and the internal TBC wasn't much help either. The Panny did the trick, not perfect but far far better.
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  #3  
07-29-2019, 04:42 AM
TONYFRANCE TONYFRANCE is offline
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I paid a lot for this VCR, coming from USA to France.
As you guess, I can't take another one
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  #4  
07-29-2019, 04:55 AM
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BarryTheCrab BarryTheCrab is offline
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The Panny is a DVD recorder with the uncanny ability to straighten messy jumpy tapes. It's used as a pass-through to the computer, not to actually record on DVD media. They are relatively inexpensive.
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  #5  
07-29-2019, 05:38 AM
LightWorker01 LightWorker01 is offline
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What type of damage does the tape have? Is it crinkling or simply damage to the shell? A damaged shell can make them jump around like a yo-yo and can damage the tape further. I would stop trying to play it until you have ascertained this.

Can you upload pictures of what the damage looks like? Is it damage across the tape or edge damage?

I am guessing with the horizontal bars/distortion near the top, you attempted to adjust tracking?

Was the tape in SP or EP mode (if NTSC) or if PAL like me, was it SP/LP or EP? I doubt it would be EP if PAL, as while i have a couple of decks that support it (panasonic and sharp units), never saw a PAL camcorder that supported PAL EP.
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  #6  
07-29-2019, 06:07 AM
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BarryTheCrab BarryTheCrab is offline
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Maybe a full size shell would be helpful, it’s the same tape isn’t it?
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  #7  
07-29-2019, 06:08 AM
LightWorker01 LightWorker01 is offline
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A good point barry. A full-size quality shell is probably a better option in cases like this.
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  #8  
07-29-2019, 06:14 AM
TONYFRANCE TONYFRANCE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightWorker01 View Post
What type of damage does the tape have? Is it crinkling or simply damage to the shell? A damaged shell can make them jump around like a yo-yo and can damage the tape further. I would stop trying to play it until you have ascertained this.

Can you upload pictures of what the damage looks like? Is it damage across the tape or edge damage?

I am guessing with the horizontal bars/distortion near the top, you attempted to adjust tracking?

Was the tape in SP or EP mode (if NTSC) or if PAL like me, was it SP/LP or EP? I doubt it would be EP if PAL, as while i have a couple of decks that support it (panasonic and sharp units), never saw a PAL camcorder that supported PAL EP.
The shell is fine.
It's a tape damage (see the pictures).

The last picture is the worst, but appears just once.


Attached Images
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File Type: jpg DSC06765+.jpg (31.2 KB, 14 downloads)
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File Type: jpg DSC06775+.jpg (34.8 KB, 15 downloads)
File Type: jpg DSC06777+.jpg (47.0 KB, 19 downloads)
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  #9  
07-29-2019, 06:26 AM
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That last photo ... wow.

I'd re-spool to full-sized shell, and then FF/REW over and over in the hopes that the action smooths it some. But that last photo, that section, it may trip up the VCR. I'd even consider slicing out those sort of sections.

You have feathering and outright physical damage.

Try stabilizer on/off, see if it even makes a difference.
Same for calibration.
But those settings were for signal damage, not physical damage, will likely do nothing.

ES10/15 probably will not help.
Nor any TBC.

Ironing is a dangerous proposition that may help, or melt the tape if done wrong.

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  #10  
07-29-2019, 06:26 AM
LightWorker01 LightWorker01 is offline
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Wow that is some severe damage. It is likely the last section is gone beyond recovery. I am wondering how it got so damaged! I hope you recorded this in SP mode, but there will still be some visual damage no matter what the equipment you use. I would wait for some more experienced members to work out what is best to do.

The last section is gone. I would also think the edge damage may have affected the control track, but the crinkle bits will result in video drop-outs at that section regardless of what you do, it is just damage control at this point.

I am sorry to say this, but it is likely you won't get a 'clean' transfer at every section. I would suggest one thing, that whatever TBC or whatever you are using replaces your blanking interval with a new one, it should at least stop the video rolling as much. It may be worth trying to flatten the tape, but at those crinkled sections oxide will be missing already, with repeated passes over the heads dislodging more oxide. It will be a combination of flattening the tape and good signal processing to get the 'best' transfer, but a clean transfer with no visual artefacts won't be possible in the damaged sections, and if recorded in EP / LP mode, you are likely to have more severe problems.

Ironing the tape seems a good idea as lordsmurf suggested, but if overdone will do irreparable damage do it with caution on a very low heat.

I am wondering how it got so damaged. Whatever deck played that to damage it (that is all I can think of) I would highly advise not using it.

The audio edges are likely to be a bit better based on those photos, so I advise switching off HiFi audio (if present) and transferring with linear audio only.

EDIT: As lordsmurf said, splice out the damaged section and use a full size shell.

Lordsmurf, you say a TBC will not help you which is probably true, would something which replaces the blanking interval like those marcovision removers or some TBCs help him out a bit? I am more thinking it would help prevent loss of v sync (image rolling) and just reduce one of the many problems he is going to have. Though it is probably the least of his problems. I doubt the decks 'stabilisation' feature would have replaced the blanking interval so it would remain macrovision compliant.

Though I do not hold out much hope, especially if he recorded the tape in EP/LP modes.
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  #11  
07-29-2019, 06:48 AM
TONYFRANCE TONYFRANCE is offline
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You see ? I'm not joking when I say it's damaged

I bought that tape from the grandaughter of an old cinema technician.
I don't know if they played the tape with a microwave, but they ruined it.

I already did a digital transfer twice. The damaged section goes through the video head, with no problem (but a lot of noise).
I can't cut, I'm afraid to cut audio or one frame that appears.

Each frame I can save is important for me.
That sounds silly I know.

I have to go to a lab, a company with big equipment. This is my last chance.
But before that, I will transfer again and again. Because each playing, is different.
Some sections are good with/without vcr filters.

Maybe I can make a composite with each capture. To get the best.

LightWorker01 : you talked about the audio. I will try. The audio is pretty low to me.

EDIT : This is EP recording

Last edited by TONYFRANCE; 07-29-2019 at 07:12 AM.
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  #12  
07-29-2019, 06:55 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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I just worry that some parts of that tape are ruining the VCR heads.

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  #13  
07-29-2019, 07:18 AM
TONYFRANCE TONYFRANCE is offline
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Picture Control : NORM or EDIT in that case ?
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  #14  
07-29-2019, 07:20 AM
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For something like this, I'd do EDIT.

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  #15  
07-29-2019, 08:02 AM
TONYFRANCE TONYFRANCE is offline
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Ok, will try again.

JVC TBC : on
EDIT option

Everything else, disable. Right ?

Last thing (I will try to explain with my words...): I just discovered something. Beginning is a mess because of the tracking.
So I stopped. I played a better part few seconds after.

Pause, I rewinded until the beginning of the tape. And now I can see the messed up part. Magic !
There is a way to get only one "tracking control" and stopped the "control attempt" for the rest of the film ?
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  #16  
07-29-2019, 08:12 AM
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Remember, in some rare cases, TBC hurts more than helps. Try both on and off.
Don't take for granted that calib/stab need be off. Test, verify.

The tracking thing makes sense. Seen it. A lot, actually. At least with messed up tapes, my specialty. Also remember manual tracking. Either up/down channel buttons on unit (then up/down for tracking), or SP/EP on remote (d-pad up/down to track).

I don't envy your situation. I hate working with tapes like this. And the main reason is it can mess up your heads. So I never put damaged tapes in our better decks. None of my personal decks are allowed anywhere near such tapes.

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  #17  
07-29-2019, 08:15 AM
LightWorker01 LightWorker01 is offline
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I would say that really really super damaged bit in the final photo should be cut, I would be worried about head damage from that piece. It is not recoverable in any case.
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  #18  
07-29-2019, 08:47 AM
TONYFRANCE TONYFRANCE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Remember, in some rare cases, TBC hurts more than helps. Try both on and off.
Don't take for granted that calib/stab need be off. Test, verify.
The TBC is doing great job. I will let it 'on'.
Rest of the filters are useless. I don't see any improvement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightWorker01 View Post
I would say that really really super damaged bit in the final photo should be cut, I would be worried about head damage from that piece. It is not recoverable in any case.
I agree. I will stop the tape before that moment.
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  #19  
07-30-2019, 04:51 AM
LightWorker01 LightWorker01 is offline
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Probably for the best. I say that because the heads are slightly raised as little bumps from the rotating cylinder.

If that raised bump caught on that damaged section in the wrong way, it risks doing damage to the raised head which rotates at 1,800 RPM (NTSC) / 1,500 RPM (PAL). Quite fast when you consider it pulling on that section.

We wish you the best of luck with it, and sorry I couldn't be of more help. It is severe damage after all. Once you have copied all you can, try and flatten it out with low heat and see if that helps
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  #20  
07-30-2019, 05:20 AM
TONYFRANCE TONYFRANCE is offline
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Hey no problem, I just wanted to know the best settings I should use.
Every advice here is precious. We don't have that kind of forum in France
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