Quantcast SV-5000W to capture NTSC in Germany? - digitalFAQ Forum
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08-11-2019, 01:59 PM
Matt_DE Matt_DE is offline
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Hi Lordsmurf and thanks for the very complete list and explanation! Unfortunately I have a special case that I couldn't fit to your list. I am living in Germany and need to digitize lots of NTSC VHS and MiniDV footage before it fades out (more). I also have other European formats that need digitization - more about that below. For the NTSC VHS material I bought a "like new" Samsung SV-5000W secondhand that broke the drive belt after 2 weeks for which there is no replacement according to the best repair shop I've found here. The output of the SV-5000W was good enough after internal NTSC to PAL conversion to give a decent picture on the TVs here but had blackouts and dropped frames going through the Black Magic USB 3.0 Shuttle to the native software and to Adobe Premiere. Being semi-competent at Video conversions and production/editing, I think I'll get it done but I need a device/(s) that will be compatible for my workflow.

The workflow would be: playback device(s - meaning one each for PAL and NTSC) => ?TBC? (internal or external e.g. black box or pass-through, possibly on a second playback device that is PAL/NTSC capable) => Black Magic Shuttle => Capture software (Robust video editing PC).

As far as I understand it, PAL and NTSC are not really so important once in the NDE world of Premiere and Co., at least before rendering... Please correct me if I'm wrong.
What I need is a playback device or multiple playbacks with or without TBC and frame sync that will fit my needs and not break my budget if do I need to use a TBC/Frame Sync "box" additionally (the "box" would need to get both systems through - as far as I know these devices exist...). One thought is that an S-VHS machine (with or without DVD recorder) could be playback provided TBC/Frame sync were internal i.e. without necessary pass-through, one for each PAL and NTSC. Two playbacks wouldn't be out of the question if I don't need an expensive "box" in the workflow, but video system has to be considered. My expectations are realistic for the output - the memories are more important that top quality!! I also know that a multisystem S-VHS (that supposedly will TBC and frame sync internally) probably doesn't exist...

That was as compact as I could. I'm glad for any help, even when the answer is "spend more". Thanks!
Matt
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08-11-2019, 02:26 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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A VHS recorder that does no conversion, so can playback PAL or NTSC, most of the time this is a multisystem recorder, nothing more or less you don't want fake formats like playback only PAL60 or NTSC50.
The Shuttle is your only capture device ? it really needs a stable signal... so this won't work in this case, look for a suitable passthrough device, or a a recorder combo, where the dvd drive also can record, for me this works fine with my Intensty Shuttle (thunderbolt2 on MBP) via RCA component progresive video (DigitalComponent video?576p) output (you need to dive into the menu settings of that combo or passthrough recorder)
You don't need the DVD drive for recording, the component,or when available, HDMI output on the combo needs to output the VCR VHS drive signal both s-video and composite output will be stable enough, no TBC needed, (in my case with the Intensity Shuttle)
is my experience.
There are also combo's where only the DVD playback will be available on the component or HDMI output

Last edited by Eric-Jan; 08-11-2019 at 02:51 PM.
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  #3  
08-11-2019, 05:04 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_DE View Post
MiniDV footage
I know at least PAL Sony cameras will stream NTSC miniDV just fine over firewire.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_DE View Post
For the NTSC VHS material I bought a "like new" Samsung SV-5000W secondhand that broke the drive belt after 2 weeks for which there is no replacement according to the best repair shop I've found here.
You may be able to salvage a belt from most newer Samsung decks. I don't think they changed anything about the drive belts in their later mechanisms. Granted I think it's just a standard belt, no gears or anything so it's strange they wouldn't have anything to replace it with, maybe the tolerance is extra tight on the drive belts?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_DE View Post
The output of the SV-5000W was good enough after internal NTSC to PAL conversion to give a decent picture on the TVs here but had blackouts and dropped frames going through the Black Magic USB 3.0 Shuttle to the native software and to Adobe Premiere. Being semi-competent at Video conversions and production/editing, I think I'll get it done but I need a device/(s) that will be compatible for my workflow.
Using the built-in NTSC to PAL conversion is not good for the video quality. NTSC and PAL use different frame rates and resolutions, so to convert from NTSC to PAL the converter will throw away 10 out of the 60 fields per second and stretch the image vertically to go from 720x480i60 to 720x576i50. If you need to combine PAL and NTSC material, it's best done in software where you can use much more advanced algorithms and get a better result.

The blackmagic devices are very sensitive to unstable video, and they don't seem to have any interest in trying to fix it for whatever reason, even though hardware-wise they should be much more cabable than they are. You need a TBC or similar if you want to capture analog video with it. I'm a bit surprised that it can't even handle the output from the built-in converter in the Samsung though, since it's digitized and converted back to stable analog in the VCR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_DE View Post
As far as I understand it, PAL and NTSC are not really so important once in the NDE world of Premiere and Co., at least before rendering... Please correct me if I'm wrong.
It does if you are mixing material, as they have different frame rates, and for analog and SD media the image resolution is different as well. The fact that analog video is interlaced also adds another layer to it. You have to be very careful that the NLE doesn't interpret interlaced footage as progressive and tries to resize or change frame rate as that will give very ugly artifacts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_DE View Post
The workflow would be: playback device(s - meaning one each for PAL and NTSC) => ?TBC? (internal or external e.g. black box or pass-through, possibly on a second playback device that is PAL/NTSC capable) => Black Magic Shuttle => Capture software (Robust video editing PC).
It depends how much you are willing to spend on it really.

As someone in europe who gets a handful of NTSC tapes a year, the workflow I've used has been PAL S-VHS deck -> Pioneer DVR-440 DVD-recorder -> capture device. These dvd-recorders (Pioneer DVR-x30 and newer, Sony RDR-HX750 and newer, and likely related DVD-only models.) understand the PAL60 signal (NTSC framerate/resolution with PAL colour encoding) and give you a normal NTSC signal out. They also act as a frame sync and line-TBC, so you get a pretty decent result. (Built-in TBC doesn't work on NTSC playback on PAL decks.) With the newer ones you can even capture from HDMI if you use a HDMI splitter to strip off HDCP. They're not as resilient to bad tapes as a full-on Datavideo/Cypress TBC or the often used panasonic DVD-recorders though.

I know capturing from the newer Panasonic DVD-recorders with HDMI + HDCP stripper is popular in the german community. They do support standard NTSC but not PAL60 as far as I know, same with the DMR-ES10/15 which people use for pass-through. They all have a tendency to clip brights a bit though.

For the absolute best quality you would need a proper NTSC SVHS deck which can be somewhat costly to import from abroad, and a TBC. Both Cypress (AVtoolbox/TVOne etc) and Datavideo TBCs are switchable between standard NTSC and PAL, Cypress also supports NTSC-4.43 (but not PAL60).

Quote:
I also know that a multisystem S-VHS (that supposedly will TBC and frame sync internally) probably doesn't exist...
I know of at least the JVC-HR-S7600AM which has a line-TBC. I think it's very rare though. I believe JVC may have made a few S-VHS multi-system decks, not sure if any others have TBC though.

Frame sync TBC is really something commonly seen in VHS decks. I've seen mentions of some of the broadcast decks possibly having a full on TBC with frame sync, but I don't know for sure. VHS/DVD recorder combos typically have sort of a frame tbc in that they digitize the signal with some buffering and converts back to analog for output (or leaves it digital for HDMI in the latest models.). They're generally shoddily built, mostly lack any sort of line-tbc, and the signal is digitized from composite video so you may up with Y/C artifacts, they may output macrovision.You're stuck with whatever output it gives you, so no opportunity to adjust video levels etc.

--

Maybe a mod could move this conversation to a separate thread?
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08-11-2019, 05:11 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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When looking up stuff for the previous reply I came across this post. In addition to the mentioned multi-system Samsungs there is apparently also a slightly older Samsung SV-300W multi-system deck that seems to have Y/C output.

Can't find the manual for it, but there is one up on ebay. (Attached images in case it goes down.)

Must be one of the handful of standard (non-SVHS) decks with Y/C output. (No standard VHS VCR/DVD recorder I've looked into has had proper Y/C as they digitize from composite internally and outputs analog from that.)


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08-11-2019, 08:25 PM
VideoTechMan VideoTechMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Frame sync TBC is really something commonly seen in VHS decks. I've seen mentions of some of the broadcast decks possibly having a full on TBC with frame sync, but I don't know for sure. VHS/DVD recorder combos typically have sort of a frame tbc in that they digitize the signal with some buffering and converts back to analog for output (or leaves it digital for HDMI in the latest models.). They're generally shoddily built, mostly lack any sort of line-tbc, and the signal is digitized from composite video so you may up with Y/C artifacts, they may output macrovision.You're stuck with whatever output it gives you, so no opportunity to adjust video levels etc.
No they do not. VHS/DVD combos are consumer level and have no TBC of any kind, neither do VHS decks. The broadcast decks usually have full frame TBC, but they only play SP recorded tapes, so won't do any good if you have LP/EP recorded tapes. Only the higher end SVHS decks would have line based TBC, but would still need an external full-frame TBC to make a complete solution for stabilizing the signal.
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08-12-2019, 03:31 PM
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I have the Samsung SV-5000W. It's just a plain VHS VCR, and not a very good one. It has issues with streaks in the image, and requires constant head cleaning. The repeat cleanings aren't good for it long-term.

The biggest issue with the SV-5000 is contrast is blown out. Brights to bright, darks too dark, color is insanely saturated. Worse on PAL tapes than NTSC, but both are bad. It's also excessively grainy (false "detail" mode always-on?), and the tracking range is lousy.

The conversion of PAL<>NTSC is even worse. Just leave PAL as PAL, NTSC as NTSC. Most modern players will play both.

If you have a mixed-format edit project, then let's deal with that in Avisynth instead.

You could do PAL as PAL, follow with PAL ES10/15, to true external frame TBC, to capture card/
Or NTSC as NTSC, NTSC ES10/15.
But the color/contrast issues will still be there.

Capturing with a BlackMagic just makes the workflow all the more worse.

For the moment ... slow down, stop.

- What is the end goal? What are you doing?
- What is the budget? (Hopefully it's realistic.)

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08-13-2019, 02:58 PM
Matt_DE Matt_DE is offline
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Sorry, getting used to this Forum... This reply was to Eric-Jan. I should look for the Instructions but I'm trying to answer all these great replies before going to bed. For the life of me I am used to Facebook and Co. - Reply and Quick-Reply weren't on my RADAR...

Eric-Jan: OK, I think I understand. Thanks for the tips. I understand from your post that the right playpack machine makes the difference, and that the shuttle needs a stable signal - yes it's my only capture device... I will look out for the "DVD output only issue"
Thanks!
Matt

-- merged --

Sorry again, I don't know if I need to tag, flag or somehow annotate the person I'm responding to but in this case it's hodgey. WOW. Thankyou for the information! I have no firewire capability. My Video-Edit Tower is too new ... Need to read your answer a couple more times and research a couple loose ends but again THANKS!
Matt

-- merged --

Quote:
Originally Posted by VideoTechMan View Post
No they do not. VHS/DVD combos are consumer level and have no TBC of any kind, neither do VHS decks. The broadcast decks usually have full frame TBC, but they only play SP recorded tapes, so won't do any good if you have LP/EP recorded tapes. Only the higher end SVHS decks would have line based TBC, but would still need an external full-frame TBC to make a complete solution for stabilizing the signal.
Thanks, I will be looking for an SVHS deck because I have heard/read exactly that in several other threads, mostly here. Can you please name your external full-frame TBC of choice (preferably under 300 /$)

Thanks!
Matt
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08-13-2019, 03:55 PM
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External frame TBCs (the ones we need for VHS transfer) are all over $500, and most models always have been. You do read about odd deals from time to time, but it's generally from offline buys in random places. The last time a good TBC was readily available for $300 was about 15 years ago, the long-discontinued green AVT-8710 (that now also commands the $500+ price, between inflation and supply&demand).

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08-13-2019, 04:00 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Originally Posted by Matt_DE View Post
I have no firewire capability. My Video-Edit Tower is too new ... Need to read your answer a couple more times and research a couple loose ends but again THANKS!
Matt
You can find pci-express firewire cards for like 20-30 + you may need a 4-pin to 6-pin firewire cable which is also cheap. Alternatively you can do the capture on an older computer, laptop or mac with firewire, it's not very demanding.
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08-13-2019, 04:30 PM
Matt_DE Matt_DE is offline
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I have the Samsung SV-5000W. It's just a plain VHS VCR, and not a very good one. It has issues with streaks in the image, and requires constant head cleaning. The repeat cleanings aren't good for it long-term.

The biggest issue with the SV-5000 is contrast is blown out. Brights to bright, darks too dark, color is insanely saturated. Worse on PAL tapes than NTSC, but both are bad. It's also excessively grainy (false "detail" mode always-on?), and the tracking range is lousy.

The conversion of PAL<>NTSC is even worse. Just leave PAL as PAL, NTSC as NTSC. Most modern players will play both.

If you have a mixed-format edit project, then let's deal with that in Avisynth instead.

You could do PAL as PAL, follow with PAL ES10/15, to true external frame TBC, to capture card/
Or NTSC as NTSC, NTSC ES10/15.
But the color/contrast issues will still be there.

Capturing with a BlackMagic just makes the workflow all the more worse.

For the moment ... slow down, stop.

- What is the end goal? What are you doing?
- What is the budget? (Hopefully it's realistic.)
Hi, Understood all of the above. Thanks!
Still not understanding how to "quote" individual text passages so here's my best:

"The conversion of PAL<>NTSC is even worse. Just leave PAL as PAL, NTSC as NTSC. Most modern players will play both."

I assumed that "multisystem" meant the capability to playback all systems - that most modern players can play both is new to me.

I won't be editing mixed format. For now it's just archiving-off, no editing other than cutting junk out, and saving the memories with the best digital render out of Premiere CC until I can do something other than watch them.

"You could do PAL as PAL, follow with PAL ES10/15, to true external frame TBC, to capture card/ Or NTSC as NTSC, NTSC ES10/15. But the color/contrast issues will still be there."

OK! "Follow with?" - do you mean ES 10/15 as playback to external frame TBC (and which one please?), to capture card (I assume not the Shuttle?)?

I think I answered the question end-goal above. B.t.w. just signed up for a year of premium. The answers so far were worth it. Thanks and keep up the good work.
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08-13-2019, 04:50 PM
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ES10 is not external framesync TBC.
It has frame sync with a partial line TBC, a minimal TBC(ish), not true TBC. For a better TBC(ish), it needs to be bosltered by the DataVideo DVK/5000 units.

But when using plain VHS VCR, the ES10 is useful. Generally the ES10 is best only for anti-tearing, as it has side effects. But those side effects are still better than uncorrected plain VHS VCR output. Least-worse scenario. Not good, just less bad.

Workflow =
VCR > ES10 > capture card

Copy/paste to quote sections.

Multisystem means plays multiple formats, but most also convert formats. Play PAL, output PAL or NTSC. And vice versa. Quality of the conversion is lousy, but possible. It adds jaggy lines and ghosting on conversions, nature of rought 25<>30fps conversions. Better quality conversion via Avisynth, even some NLEs (Final Cut, but not Premiere).

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08-14-2019, 01:59 AM
Matt_DE Matt_DE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
You may be able to salvage a belt from most newer Samsung decks. I don't think they changed anything about the drive belts in their later mechanisms. Granted I think it's just a standard belt, no gears or anything so it's strange they wouldn't have anything to replace it with, maybe the tolerance is extra tight on the drive belts?
Thanks again for all the info! Lots of useful stuff for someone prepared to read it - but that's what search engines are for! I'm taking your advice with the PCI Express Firewire card to get through the MiniDV stuff until I get the other devices picked out and paid for.

As I'm obviously needing to get used tech to pursue my VHS rescue mission, I'm going to need a go-to repair shop - even if I have to ship to them. Maybe my SV-5000W didn't get fixed because of an uninspired bench technician? At least that was my impression. I'm looking for a better one (VHS, rather SVHS) but might like to have the SV-5000W working again anyway. You mentioned that you're in Europe and are familiar with the German video community. I'm in southwest Germany. Can you give me a lead on a good repair facility that's going to be able to fix the used gear I'm looking for, should I find it, buy it and break it or receive it broken ?

I repaired RADAR in a previous career, so maybe I could have a crack at the belt replacement... Hmmm.

Thanks!
Matt
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08-14-2019, 09:28 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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You can find some vcr repair videos here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...KoliOBWJ8gD4L_
https://www.youtube.com/user/databits/videos

These channels i've found, but don't know if there are any better ones.
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  #14  
08-14-2019, 09:54 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
are familiar with the German video community.
Not really, the person to ask here about that would be
Bogilein
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08-14-2019, 06:43 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Also re finding a belt, see my reply here.
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