How to capture analog video, buying HDMI card + converter?

[igorandrejew]

Hi all,

I have a Youtube channel that has a solid fan base, people that I don't want to let down. I've been putting artistic videos on it since 2007. I record my videos using an analog (hi8 PAL) Sony camcorder. I do not use tape, I only use the lens to be the transmitter of the image, so to speak. The camcorder comes with a yellow RCA composite video output. I connect it to my Windows XP computer via a Conexant chip-based capture card (Leadtek Winfast TV2000 XP). For software I use VirtualDub and I capture the incoming video with the resolution of 352x288 @ 25 fps, although I might use 704x576 or 720x576 too. Everything works flawlessly. I save my video files as AVI on my hard drive. I rescale / render these videos in Sony Vegas up to HD resolution so that the viewing experience is correct on Youtube. This might seem like an odd way of doing things, but this meticulous procedure ensures that my videos stand out and retain their originality in today's ultra-perfect boring state-of-the-art content. The edges are softer and it looks as if it was shot on film, etc, etc.


Alas, I need to buy a new PC, as the one I use for my video work is 12 years old and dying. This means I will no longer be able to use my capture card, as it is a PCI-slot device. So what shall I do? Well, I think I need something for PCI-express. That's why I'm thinking about buying Blackmagic Design's one of the three:

Blackmagic DeckLink Mini Recorder
Blackmagic DeckLink Mini Recorder 4K
Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K

I have many questions and apprehensions, but I'll try these three:

Will these products enable me to retain my entire procedure of doing things, especially the capture resolutions and format?

If not, what is the modern way of capturing video from analog devices into your PC as AVI files?

Is it ok if I buy a $10-$70 AV->HDMI converter box and connect my Sony camcorder through it to my HDMI input capture card in my new PC? I need to find a way to translate Composite video into HDMI signal without changing or degrading the analog signal...

I have used various "cheap" options: USB video grabbers, a Hauppauge TV card with composite in... but nothing works as it's supposed to. There are either resolution limitations, or mice teeth / interlacing, or no drivers for a 64 bit OS, etc. Somebody recommended an "AVerMedia DarkCrystal SD x4", but it has no Win 10 support. I need something that can be relied upon, hence the choice of the more expensive Blackmagic.

Thank you, you are my last resort.

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by igorandrejew

I record my videos using an analog (hi8 PAL) Sony camcorder. I do not use tape, I only use the lens to be the transmitter of the image, so to speak. The camcorder comes with a yellow RCA composite video output. I connect it to my Windows XP computer via a Conexant chip-based capture card (Leadtek Winfast TV2000 XP). For software I use VirtualDub and I capture the incoming video with the resolution of 352x288 @ 25 fps, although I might use 704x576 or 720x576 too.

Quote:

I have used various "cheap" options: USB video grabbers, a Hauppauge TV card with composite in... but nothing works as it's supposed to. There are either resolution limitations, or mice teeth / interlacing, or no drivers for a 64 bit OS, etc.

I don't know where to begin. For starters, I will just accept that you want to use a Hi8 camcorder to shoot your YouTube videos in 2019, because I can't be bothered arguing the point. But investing in Blackmagic hardware to do this is totally backwards.

1. Use S-Video instead of Composite from your Hi8 cam
2. Capture 720x576 or 704x575 and deinterlace after capture instead of using your current "drop field" method of 288p capturing. This will preserve more vertical resolution even if you want to halve the temporal resolution to 25 fps as you are doing now. Interlacing/the mice teeth/combing you are complaining about is just how the native output of your camcorder looks when "weaved" into a frame for PC display. It isn't an artifact of the capture device.
3. If you still have one of the solutions that works with your 64-bit OS, you may not even need to buy anything. Attach a short unaltered source capture (10 secs or less) and we can suggest how to work with what you have now to achieve your desired results. Or tell you if what you have absolutely won't work.

[igorandrejew]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

I don't know where to begin. For starters, I will just accept that you want to use a Hi8 camcorder to shoot your YouTube videos in 2019, because I can't be bothered arguing the point. But investing in Blackmagic hardware to do this is totally backwards.

1. Use S-Video instead of Composite from your Hi8 cam
2. Capture 720x576 or 704x575 and deinterlace after capture instead of using your current "drop field" method of 288p capturing. This will preserve more vertical resolution even if you want to halve the temporal resolution to 25 fps as you are doing now. Interlacing/the mice teeth/combing you are complaining about is just how the native output of your camcorder looks when "weaved" into a frame for PC display. It isn't an artifact of the capture device.
3. If you still have one of the solutions that works with your 64-bit OS, you may not even need to buy anything. Attach a short unaltered source capture (10 secs or less) and we can suggest how to work with what you have now to achieve your desired results. Or tell you if what you have absolutely won't work.

Thanks msgohan. I don't think S-Video is possible. I had cameras with S-Video output and the picture was ugly (not because of S-Video, probably because those cameras used different ccd or lens). I only accept Sony image, and Sony has RCA video output. But I'll look around, maybe there exists a vintage Sony camera with S-Video.

I have read a comprehensive website about deinterlacing (http://www.100fps.com/) but the procedure seems cumbersome and forces me to use compression ("Install Virtualdub, install Avisynth, install DivX. If you don't install ALL of the software programs above, deinterlacing will NOT work.")

Is this the only way of getting rid of the combing effect? Please tell me if there is any other method, like using some filters in VirtualDub during or after the capture process (for example: VirtualDub Video --> Filters … --> Add … --> deinterlace --> ok --> Interpolate using Yadif algorihm)

I believe there is, because I've used services of a company that transfers VHS tapes to DVD. I don't think they encode their DVDs into Divx, so they must have some other method of deinterlacing their VHS image.

I cannot stay with what I have, because I have sold / thrown into the garbage bin everything that didn't work. That's why I need to buy a new capture device for a contemporary 64-bit PC, hence my post

[hodgey]

You don't have to use any compression to deinterlace footage, I'm guessing the 100fps website suggests installing Divx to decode or encode mpeg4 video. Anyway there's pretty much no reason to use DivX these days.

You can deinterlace with yadif in virtualdub, don't need any extra plugins. If you want the absolute top quality deinterlacing, you will have to look into avisynth, that's a bit more complicated, though I think Hybrid can do most if it for you, though I haven't used it myself.

I haven't tested it myself, but something like a Avermedia C310B may be an option for a pcie capture card, it has a 3D comb filter unlike the blackmagic cards, which helps avoid Y/C arifacts like color flashing near sharp transitions and chroma dots and should work fine on Windows 10. (It basically uses the successor video chip to the one in your Leadtek card.)

Doing hdmi converter -> blackmagic card would also work, though most HDMI converter boxes give pretty lousy quality and typically upscale and deinterlace to 720p/1080p rather than giving you the original resolution.

[msgohan]

Any Sony Hi8 cam would have S-Video output. Are you sure you don't have a Video8 cam? What's the model number?

[hodgey]

The last one they made (CCD-TRV238) and the corresponding Digital8 ones did not have S-Video actually. Guessing OP is using something older though.

[igorandrejew]

Hi gyus,

First of all - Thanks!!! Now I feel I have really moved forward in my ability to plan things. I am excited to see there are devices that are tailored for me Plus, my worries about converting analog to hdmi proved correct, that's not the way to do it.

I have some more questions though:

1. Is it ok if I use a cheap RCA-to-BNC conversion plug (https://c.76.my/Malaysia/2-x-bnc-fem...1-ioline@3.jpg) in the case where my camera comes with an RCA output and my capture card comes with a BNC input (Avermedia CL311-MN)? I used to have a BNC-equippped JVC JX-C7 color corrector and I had no problems connecting my RCA Sony to it.

2. If a capture card (Avermedia CE310B in this case) states that its "Input Video Resolution is: Composite / S-Video:720x480@60i, 720x576@50i", does it mean that I only have these two options, or does it mean that these are the maximum allowed resolutions? What if I decide to use 352x288? Will it accept such setting? I have a feeling that even if the manufacturer's software is limited, using VirtualDUB with the same hardware unfolds a wider list of choosable resolutions.

ps. My Sony is CCD-TR713E. I don't know whether it's the vintage-ness of my camera, or of the Conexant chip, or the cheap RCA cables but the picture just looks beautiful, with all the fuzzy edges, slight color distortions, etc. Modern HD/8K is too perfect for my style of creation.

[hodgey]

Ah, that's actually another Hi8 camera without S-Video.

1. A cheap RCA to BNC adapter is fine for analog video, though the Avermedia CL311-MN only supports digital video so it won't work with your camcorder (Digital SDI video use the same BNC connectors as was used for analog video.)

2. That's normally the maximum yeah. The half-size resolution for analog capture was more used in the past (think 90s) when storage space and processing power was limited. I believe capturing at lower resolutions is still possible (at least it's listed when using related USB cards), it's just not advertised.

[igorandrejew]

Oh, see? There's always some trick. I went through this when I had to replace my sound interface. I had to buy and return 3 products before I finally found one that was working reliably.

So BNC is out of the question. But what about the wide white socket that resembles a DVI slot? I don't know what it's called, it comes with a breakout cable. This capture card has it: Avermedia DarkCrystal SD Capture x4 or x8 (model C968)
https://www.avermedia.com/profession.../c968/overview
On that site there is even a diagram that shows the breakout cable connection. Here's another picture:

https://c.allegroimg.com/original/01...e6e5efee1e52ec

Right now my choice is between Avermedia CE310B and Avermedia DarkCrystal SD and I need to know whether both cards will work the same when it comes to my analog capturing process.

Will it be ok if I connect my camera through this RCA-Breakout setup in DarkCrystal? The CE310B looks like a no-brainer with its Composite input, but it's nowhere to be found in my country, whereas the DarkCrystal is widely distributed.

[igorandrejew]

Msgohan, from your initial answer I had the impression that you were appalled when you learnt about my whole analog capturing process Could you describe the way you would do it if you had to capture analog video into AVI? What setup (computer, OS, capture device, software)? Or can you guide me to a place in this forum where such recommendations can be found? I have read thru many threads and only collected bits of information like:

- Mac computers not recommended for video work;
- Windows 10 not recommended for video work;
- some capture cards like the Intensity Shuttle need additional TBC gear to deal with analog glitches...

Thanks!

[hodgey]

Quote:

Will it be ok if I connect my camera through this RCA-Breakout setup in DarkCrystal?

The card is a bit overkill, but yea, that should work.

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by igorandrejew

- Windows 10 not recommended for video work;
- some capture cards like the Intensity Shuttle need additional TBC gear to deal with analog glitches...

You should be able to manage with Win10. You shouldn't need to worry about analog glitches since you have a "pure" source generated directly from your camera's electronics. This forum is mostly concerned with analog tape capture.

Recommendations for Win10 capture hardware for your goals would be simple if your camcorder had S-Video output. The complication is your composite limitation.

Cards with 3D comb filters are rare, which is why hodgey recommended the obscure CE310B. There are some other cards utilitizing the same ADC that theoretically have this same feature, but they may not be any easier to obtain where you are.

https://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.p...ial%253ASearch
https://www.gc-forever.com/wiki/inde...WinTV-HVR-1850

On the topic of comb filters and Y/C separation in general, this page appears to have more info than you probably even want: http://www.cockam.com/vidcomb.htm (last updated 2015)

[hodgey]

It seems most pci-e analog capture cards that don't feature HD capture (HDMI and/or component) are based around either the mentioned conexant chip or philips SAA716x which also have a 3D comb filter, so most non-HDMI PCI-E capture cards will probably work fine for this.

[igorandrejew]

Thanks guys.

By the way, I was thinking about the time in the future when I will finally have to switch to current technology and I began to scratch my head... assuming I buy a contemporary HD camcorder, how do I get its live picture to be transmitted to my PC screen so that I can preview it? In the old handycam the Composite output always shows live picture when the camcorder is set to "record mode" and I can grab it into a n AVI file. Is the process exactly the same with the sole exception that HDMI is used instead of Composite? Will VirtualDUB work for that?

I have a vague worry that this can't be done on modern digital cameras that record movie clips as files on their hard drives / memory sticks...

My videos show me during my musical performances and I have to have a live preview of the set, and be able to do several takes of a performance, watch the ones that have been recorded, spot any mistakes, delete them, record a new take...

[msgohan]

If you literally mean preview and not capture, it would be better to connect the camcorder's HDMI output to a TV or monitor.

Most camcorders shut themselves off if you keep them on for too long without doing internal recording, even when connected to AC power. If you plan to be previewing for a long time during setup, you'll want to look for a model that allows you to disable this.

[ELinder]

I'm not sure about Virtualdub, but I've connected my Olympus EM1 camera to a Shuttle Intensity Thunderbolt via the HDMI cable and used Blackmagic's Media Express to capture video directly from the live camera. You just need to make sure to set the camera to send only the clean video feed and not what's in the view finder, otherwise it overlays the settings displays onto the video. I imagine it would be the same for a true video camera.