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  #1  
11-25-2005, 05:14 PM
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I am looking to fit 6GB of video on a standard single layer dvd and would like to know if Procoder 2.0 can do this. I have that as well as TMPGEnc and would like an easy way to do this while also retaining as much of the quality as possible.
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  #2  
11-25-2005, 06:10 PM
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Any encoder should be able to fit video to a certain size. The size of a video depends solely on the bitrate, and how the compression is used (for MPEG, the GOP).

Procoder is an encoder, a very good one at that, and can very likely achieve what you want.

Of course, fitting data on a disc, and retaining quality, are separate concepts. In order to retain quality, you must use an amount of bitrate that is adequate for the resolution.

Since retaining quality is something most people value, and something I like to teach, I'll need to know a few things before we continue:

(1) What is the source? TV, VHS, DVD recorder, official DVD release?

(2) What is the resolution of the video you have currently? If you don't know how to find this out, ask.

(3) What is the total running time of ALL the video you're wanting to put on this one disc?

Answer those, and I'll try to give you the best suggestions on what to do, and the settings you'd need to achieve it. As well as a full explanation on what needs to be done in Procoder.





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  #3  
11-26-2005, 04:51 AM
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There are actually two separate dvd's I am wanting to make. Both are the same except for the running time and are both around 6GB worth of video.

1. Originally from 16mm or 32mm and then transfered onto dvd-r. I'm not sure how though.

2. I'm not sure if this is the resolution so if it isn't just let me know how to find out what it is.
Video frame size and display size are 720x480

3. One of the projects is approx 125 min
The other is about 4 hours, which I know is alot for one disc but would like to see how it is anyhow
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  #4  
12-04-2005, 05:14 PM
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Sorry for the slow response, had to leave town.

Alright, well, you're not really putting 6GB of video on a DVD, but you're re-encoding it with settings that will fall under 4.2GB or so (which leaves 150MB for menus and formatting space and whatnot).

Each DVD will have a separate bitrate setting.

Everything is starting from digital source, and was not super high res to start with, so we can probably get away with doing up to 4 hours on a disc, but it will be cutting it close. I would wholeheartedly suggest that be split into two discs of 2 hours with generous settings. But it's your call.

The 125 minute disc should not be a problem at all.

Next post will be the Procoder 2 guide. I just took about 15 images for it, but need another day on it.


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  #5  
12-04-2005, 05:25 PM
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Thanks so much. I can't wait for the guide.

Matt
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  #6  
12-04-2005, 09:15 PM
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Import your source.

pc2-1.gif

Be sure that Procoder is correctly reading the source file attributes. If not, change them. If you're not sure, use the GSPOT Codec tool to ID the properties of the source file. Your source file off a DVD may be VOB, and you should be able to rename it MPEG. If you're not sure how to get the source files off the disc, there is a guide on the site for it at http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/...corderedit.htm

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This next step is optional, you can cover up overscan borders if any exist. Click on ADVANCED while in the SOURCE tab (3 tabs on the left of screen are SOURCE, TARGET and ENCODE)

pc2-0.gif

Click on ADD to add a new video filter, and add the CROP filter. Now we won't really crop, but we'll cover over the overscan noise with a black mask. To do this, simply uncheck the "scale after crop" box.

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About 12 pixels off top/bottom should do it. Maybe less. Just do enough to cover the noise, but not cover over OK quality video.

Be careful when using the filters. Procoder 2 is sometimes known to crash if you try to move bars around too fast.

pc2-2.gif

Now it's time to load the TARGET file. We're going to use 352x480 resolution, sicne the source was not high res to begin with, plus we'll need the higher bitrate allocation, especially since we'll squeeze 4 hours on that one disc. However, Procoder does not have a Half D1 template, it only does Full D1 in a template. SO we'll make one (NOTE that you can save this template once it's all set up, there should be an obvious button on screen that you can click on and save).

For now, we'll pick a generic SYSTEM MPEG stream.

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Then we'll alter it to Half D1 DVD specs by clicking advanced.

pc2-4.gif

Go to stream format, and select the DVD template. It puts in all the DVD Full D1 settings. But note that everything is locked and cannot be altered. Now put it back to the GENERIC MPEG stream. All the DVD settings should remain (except for sequence headers, which we must manually fix), but everything can now be altered. Nothing is locked.

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All the settings in the images here are what I would use for the 4-hour DVD. Including the bitrate settings. The most important settings are shown in pink. PLEASE NOTE that the interlace field dominance (top, botton, none) need to match the source. Procoder usually gets it wrong here, so change it to match the source input.

pc2-5.gif

I would alter audio to 256k bitrate, as it can give better tonal qualities than 192 or 224, especially if it's had to be restored.

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As far as bitrates go, this is what I'd use:

4-hour setting:
352x480 2200k average bitrate, 2700k max bitrate

2-hour+ setting:
352x480 4000k average bitrate, 5000k max bitrate

Oh, I'd also skip MASTERING mode. Just use HIGHEST. Procoder 2.0 has some bugs in the MASTERING settings, it can sometimes look worse and take less time than HIGHEST.

pc2-6.gif

If you have more questions, ask. But I think this covers most everything.


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  #7  
12-05-2005, 02:48 AM
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I already have the source files as MPEG's and will try to put the files on dvd tmrw or wednesday. I will let you kow how everything goes and thanks for the detaled guide

Matt
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  #8  
12-05-2005, 01:11 PM
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Updated the guide, left an image off the first time (last image).

On my computer, this sort of encode would be either realtime (1 hour of footage takes 1 hour to encode) or 2x realtime (1 hour of footage takes 2 hours to encode), depending on the decoding needs of the source files.

If you're impatient, especially on that 4-hour clip, do it overnight.

I also cannot promise the 4-hour will not be too big, as we are compressing a lot. Much of the final size depends on the source. It should fit. But if it does not, we'll have to drag down the bitrates about 200k across the board and try again. I don't want to do that right now, because it'll be less desireable than the higher bitrate. And the worst thing that can happen if the first attempt is too big, is that it requires another night to be done. I assume you're not on a schedule, nor impatient, so I don't foresee a problem.

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  #9  
12-05-2005, 02:49 PM
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There is no rush. I am looking to do the 2hr disc first, but maybe I will try 4hr first and see how it goes.
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  #10  
12-08-2005, 03:34 PM
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Hi LS,
I have a few questions and problems that I encountered when trying to encode the 4hr film. The first thing was that with the interlacing the file cam up with Lower/Bottom Field First instead of the Upper/Top Field First. Should I change it or leave it as is? Also when setting the advanced settings for the target I wasn't able to set the video standard to N/A and the only options are NTSC 720x480 and PAL 720x576. Also I am not able to change the width and height because it is faded and am not able to make any changes at all. The last thing is that I can't change the bitrate below 2500 for the video bitrate and for the max bitrate it keeps changing back to 6000 as well.

Thanks

Matt
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  #11  
12-08-2005, 07:22 PM
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On interlacing, be sure it matches the source. If it does not, then change it. Procoder is not real good about field detection.

This guide is written for the FULL VERSION of Procoder, by the way, not the EXPRESS version. Express is very crippled compared to the full one. You are using the full version, correct?

On the settings screen, you should be able to select NTSC 720x480, and then switch it back to GENERIC.

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  #12  
12-09-2005, 04:51 AM
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I will make sure it matches the source and I do own the full version of procoder 2.0 not the express.

Matt
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  #13  
12-15-2005, 03:51 PM
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Hi LS,
I just tried it again tonight and I found the problem I originally encountered. I had it in the wrong stream format and thats why I couldnt change some of the values. I am encoding it overnight and will let you know how it comes out tmrw.

Thanks

Matt
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  #14  
12-16-2005, 06:01 AM
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I encoded the file and it ended up too big as you were afraid of. The resulting file ended up being 5.1GB and the encode took about 14 hours. Just let me know what I will need to adjust to make it smaller.
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  #15  
12-17-2005, 02:08 AM
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You may have to go and set it for 2000k average and 2500k max. That's the CVD/SVCD/DVB spec bitrate, the bottom end of acceptability. It won't look good unless the source quality is very high. You may want to try a 30-minute encode while you eat dinner or something, and then see if it's even worth it. Maybe it would be better off split. Compression at the detriment of quality is not really a wise move, as you'll always regret it later on.

And you know, you could always invest in DOUBLE LAYER media, DVD+R DL. You can easily put up to 7.5GB on a disc, and the tools to create such discs now exist. I've started to dabble in DVD+R DL myself.



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  #16  
12-17-2005, 08:39 AM
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To be honest I would have to agree with you on the quality. After the first encode it was complete trash. I guess I will start having to look into DL discs or DVD-9. Also for the 17 van beuren tom and jerry shorts, I originally thought they were 6GB but I didn't notice I had about 5 duplicate files so it should be under the limit for one disc. If I have any problems with them I will post again, and if I need to reduce them it would only be a very tiny bit. I was also wondering if you knew of any good newbie books or websites that explain digital video becuase I would like to learn a lot more about it, especially ecoding in to raw DV and more technical stuff pertaining the procoder and mpeg2. Thanks again for the help.

Matt
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  #17  
12-17-2005, 09:43 AM
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No. The complete lack of books, or small selection written by people who shouldn't be writing on the topic, is why sites like this one even exist.

My best advice is to read this site, read the manuals and help files that come with your software, read DVD Demystified, and ask questions here. There's other video sites out there too, though many of them are overly infested by people that merely copy DVDs, rather than make new content.

If you want to look into advanced DV and editing, plenty of books on that. But as far as the MPEG and DVD aspect goes, lots and lots of outdated/bad information out there. If you listened to some of the books and magazines out there, you'd be using some all-in-one junk software.

Let me know precisely what sort of stuff you want to learn, not just a general topic, and I can see where to point you.


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  #18  
12-18-2005, 05:48 PM
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I am mainly interested in learning the basics of DV, what can play raw DV formats, is there a benefit of being in raw DV compared to mpeg2. The other would be using procoder. More in depth guides than the basic users guide that came with the program. And the last would digital restoration of some of the older films I own that are already in mpeg2 format (for example the tom and jerry shorts i have).
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  #19  
12-19-2005, 02:51 AM
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Well, DV is not uncompressed. It's merely lesser compressed than MPEG is. DV is about 13MB/hour (25Mb). Uncompressed video is 75MB/hour, using standard YUY2 method. (It can actually be uncompressed even more, but for non-professionals, it's difficult, expensive, and overkill.)

DV was created for compression that still left room for editing. Unlike a lot of other video formats, DV has a (fairly) unified methodology, so it will work 99% the same in hardware and software. Unlike something homemade like DIVX or XVID which can change like the wind in how it is implemented.

Consumer DV25 is actually more lossy than VHS in terms of how it handles color data, though advanced filter work (such as DIGIC by Canon, or the 3CCD hardware of a Panasonic) inside the camera tends to correct for this. There is sadly no such filter for DV conversion work, like using those DV converters that turn VHS to DV, so you can more readily see color variances and contrast issues. It's usually not noticeable to the layman, having been ruined by years of low end VHS, but anybody with advanced video experience on higher grade gear (like Betacam or S-VHS) tends to see the oddities right away. Not to mention DV was created with shooting in mind, I doubt it was ever intended for conversion work, as conversion methods were sound at the time.

Professional DV50 has skipped over the harsher color compression scheme, and gives you 4:2:2 that is more similar to that of traditional sources (in digital equivalents).

The advantage of DV over MPEG-2 (assuming you mean the MP@ML delta format GOP used on DVD) is that the DV has lesser compression and can be edited and re-encoded with minimal loss. In fact, MPEG-2 can be the same, if you use I-frame only GOP and pump up the bitrate to 15-25Mb/s

I realize some of this is using the lingo of video, but it's almost impossible to explain vertain things without it. Just muddle along and ask questions if any words or sentences confuse you. You'll get it eventually. I did. Just pretend it's a college course, where they don't necessarily explain away every single thing.

Having those T&J shorts (Van Buren, I assume) in MPEG, you will have to watch the quality loss every time you do something. If you can work from the original MPEG, and do all filtering in one pass, great! If not, then any middle steps need to be converted to AVI. This would excluse something like TMPGEnc for middle work, and force you toward VirtualDub (which has many filters too!). Of course, if TMPGEnc is needed for a certain filter, then you could encode to a 15-25Mb/s MPEG-2 with I-frame only, and it'd probably look equally as good. And then do the very final encode job in Procoder, with whatever filters you want. Another suggestion is you leave everything 720x480 while restoring, only convert to 352x480 at the very end (optional, or leave it 720x480, whatever you want to do).

There is no book for things like this. It requires a combo of knowledge and experience. I don't think a single book could ever contain all the knowledge you need for the decision-making aspect of video.





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  #20  
12-19-2005, 04:45 AM
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Thank you for the help. I will take into account of what you have said and try out some of the programs you have mentioned.

Matt
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