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  #21  
11-14-2018, 08:35 PM
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Ask for help without being rude. Last post edited. sanlyn's concerns were valid, as sample image was photo of a monitor, not a screen shot -- though he must've missed part of the conversation earlier in the thread. It also helps that I know your source exactly, WWE Network, he probably does not.

You need to crop in an encoder. 960 down to 720, about 120px off left/right side, and redo aspect from 1:1 of source to 4:3 (and not 16:9). That's all. It adds more steps to the encode.

But on a widescreen TV, where the 960x540 was down-converted to 720x480 16x9, it should not be postage stamped (bars on all sides). Or your DVD player is setup wrong -- again, if widescreen TV. For 4x3 SD set, I'd understand.

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  #22  
11-14-2018, 08:50 PM
Superstar Superstar is offline
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I've asked for help several times, he was rude to me for no reason first, twice in the same message. I've been here almost 10 years, no need for him talking down to me like I'm stupid.

Anyways, based off what you said, would I need a separate encoding program other than TMPGEnc Video Master? I'm not sure if you're familiar with that program, but that's what I used after I ripped the videos from the site initially. I cut out the rest of each show, down to each segment I wanted then did the encoding process with the settings that I listed

No, I don't think the DVD player is set up wrong. I have several home made DVDs that don't have the black bars on them, or retail bought DVDs without them either

On the test DVD I made last night, the picture quality is awesome, it's just the bars that I don't want on them.

If you don't think I can do what you suggested in Video Master, what encoding program should I get for this?

Also, you said 960 down to 720. I assume that you mean the initial video that I ripped off the network and not the one that I encoded to 720?
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  #23  
11-14-2018, 09:01 PM
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The solution to rudeness on the site is to PM a Site Staff, not be rude back.

I've not used that exact TMPGEnc program in a while, no. But honestly, it does not matter. You need to crop the video is whatever programs let's you encode the video.

You realize that the 4x3 video will always have left/right black bars, when viewed on HD/WS screen, correct?

You need to start over the the 960 source, not re-encode the 720 encode.

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  #24  
11-14-2018, 09:05 PM
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Interesting. How come when I watch the network on my TV, their videos do not have black bars, but the ones I took do?

Yeah, I was afraid you were going to say that. I already deleted the videos that I ripped intially after I cut them down. So..that's not good for me.

Earlier you said this is one of the steps, about 120px off left/right side
I don't believe there's a setting in video master that allows me to pick that option, so how would I do that one?

It allows me to put it to 4:3, so that's not a problem
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  #25  
11-14-2018, 09:09 PM
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If you don't go back to the source, you're just going to make it harder yet. Taking the 720x480 and cropping off 120px from each will give 480x480, which you'll then have to downsize to 352 to be compliant to the DVD specs.

You need to attach a sample clip of your current encode work.

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  #26  
11-18-2018, 01:35 PM
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Here's (31-33) a screenshot of the advanced settings in the program. Do you see that option in here anyway? I don't think I do but figured I'd check with you

-- merged --

This is one (34) of the regular settings. These are the ones I used for all the clips I encoded intially

-- merged --

And I understand what you mean about encoding the original from the 960 to 720x480

but what I don't understand is when you say take 120px off to take it to 480x480. Is that another encode? It doesnt give a 480x480 encoding option in there.

-- merged --

Update. I've been playing around with it a little bit. i'm going to break this down step by step of what I've done.

First -

I took it off the network with the 1929 option. Brought it into Video Master, cropped it down to the segment I wanted. Went to the "Format" section to encode.

I then selected it to be "MPEG for DVD file output" and I selected the 720x480 16x9 settings, 7 bitrate, 384 audio & hit encode. In the video preview screen, there's already black bars on each side of it....

After that completed -

I brought the newly encoded clip back into Video Master. This time, I selected "MPEG File Output" and I selected MPEG-2 video (and not MPEG for DVD file Output as I did in step 1) the reason that I did this is because the 480x480 option is not available in the MPEG for DVD file Output option

In the MPEG File Output, I was able to manually change it to 480x480. So, I did that. I then changed it to 4:3 & selected 384 audio. I made bitrate 7 (it had 3 default selected)

In the video preview window as it was encoding, I could see that it definitely looked smaller this time.

I saved the test DVD file from last night so I opened that, the full DVD I made was there, so I added this new file and in the preview window, it seems to have very pronounced bars all around and the video itself is smaller than the other ones that were already in there

So...seems like I did something wrong, somewhere in these steps..

-- merged --

I took another clip off the site with the highest quality setting the program allowed, brought it into Video Manager, encoded it to 720x480 16x8 and still has the black bars. Seems to have them immediately after taking them off the site?

-- merged --

Currently re-downloading all of the shows to start fresh, as you suggested. Using the 960x540 1929 kbps setting for this step

Next, in Video Master, I'll be cropping the shows down to remove the segments that I want.

Just need walked through step by step what I do from here, and what settings to use to remove the black bars. Thanks!


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot (31).jpg (38.0 KB, 7 downloads)
File Type: jpg Screenshot (32).jpg (34.5 KB, 4 downloads)
File Type: jpg Screenshot (33).jpg (43.5 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: jpg Screenshot (34).jpg (37.7 KB, 2 downloads)
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  #27  
11-18-2018, 06:28 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
Next, in Video Master, I'll be cropping the shows down to remove the segments that I want.
No, I don't think you'll be cropping to isolate segments. If you're removing frames to alter the length of a video clip, the correct term is trim, not crop. Crop means something else entirely.

We don't know what your clips look like. What portion of the clip is actual image content? Are the images 4:3 pictures in 16x9 frames with side borders? Are they 16x9 images in 16x9 frames? Are they letterboxed 16x9 images in 16x9 frames or pillared and letterboxed 16x9 images in 16x9 frames? Do you have some sort of misgiving about letting us know how the frames actually look before they are displayed?

Note that if you remove side borders for a 4:3 image and encode the result for 16x9, you will stretch, blur, and distort the 4:3 image.

Note that if you remove side borders in a 4:3 image and encode the result for 4:3 display, your 16x9 TV will replace the missing side pillars with its own black borders on each side.
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  #28  
11-18-2018, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
We don't know what your clips look like. What portion of the clip is actual image content? Are the images 4:3 pictures in 16x9 frames with side borders? Are they 16x9 images in 16x9 frames? Are they letterboxed 16x9 images in 16x9 frames or pillared and letterboxed 16x9 images in 16x9 frames?
This is exactly it.


Attached Files
File Type: mp4 WCW Nitro Ep134 1998-04-06 sample clip.mp4 (7.08 MB, 3 downloads)

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  #29  
11-18-2018, 09:12 PM
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Yes, that's correct what Smurf posted. I'm not totally sure the answers to those questions, unfortunately. Good questions though, but this is really the only time other than one other time that I've really dove into something like this, so I'm not quite sure on the measurements... but they're exactly what he posted the sample of.
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  #30  
11-18-2018, 09:24 PM
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You're confusing both me and yourself.

- The source is widescreen video. 16:9 DAR (1:1 SAR).
- It has black bars (pillars) on the side, ie image is pillarboxed.
- When viewed on a widescreen computer or TV, you should not see black bars at top/bottom, only on the sides. If you do see it, a setting is wrong somewhere, either in playback software (computer), or the DVD player (HDTV).
- On a 4x3 SDTV, you would see black bars on top/bottom, and on the sides, aka windowboxed or "postage stamped". If the video was cropped to 4x3, and encoded correctly, you'd not have bars anywhere, on the SDTV.

You crop left/right to remove the black pillars, to create 4:3 DAR. But 4x3 or 16x9 should look identical on the HDTV. Black bars will always exist.

I don't think you're doing anything wrong with encoding, it's the understanding and viewing.

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  #31  
11-18-2018, 09:42 PM
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Yes, I only see them on the sides on the finished DVD that I made.

I've been trying to do research on this problem to see if I could figure it out myself, but I haven't come across a straight way to remove them.

I've seen some things where people say to bring your video into whatever program and actually crop out the black bars, like you would crop something out of a picture. Would you recommend doing that, or would that hurt final video quality?

You did say black bars will always exist. So,apparently there's no way to remove them..? When you told me several messages back that I had to start from the main source, and pretty much start over, that's why I've deleted my original clips and have been re-downloading all the shows again for the last 2 days, because I thought with starting over and doing a different method of encoding (whatever you'd suggest) that I could remove them somehow? Is that not correct?

Here's a picture of the test disc I made. You can see the black bars in faint black color on both sides. That's how it looks on my TV. So, to clarify, nothing can be done to remove those..?

Also to clarify what I do, I download them from the network, bring them into video master trim them down to what I want, (black bars are already there, seemingly as soon as I take it off the network) then encode to 16x9 752x480.

What was hte steps for that you told me about having to encode it to 4x3 352x480 after I do the first encode, if the bars can't be removed?


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot (39).jpg (49.0 KB, 3 downloads)

Last edited by Superstar; 11-18-2018 at 09:57 PM.
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  #32  
11-18-2018, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
I only see them on the sides on the finished DVD that I made
Referring to black border pixels, the original download has black pixels along the left, top, right, and bottom. You can't see all of them on your TV because your Vizio uses overscan, so that part of the borders are masked on your Tv display. Vizio TV overscan can't be disabled. The borders can't be measured accurately because of it, which is one reason why we can't use pictures of your TV screen. If you think today's HDTV's don't have overscan, think again. Overscan is enabled on today's TV's by default. On more expensive sets from SONY and Samsung, overscan can be adjusted and/or disabled.

A) 960x540 original frame, with borders (126 black pixels left, 8 pixels top, 126 pixels right, 2 pixels bottom). This is a direct frame capture from Virtualdub, not a photo of a display.


B) cropped and resized, no borders, 720x480 anamorphic frame for DVD.


C) 4:3 DVD display from the encoded MPEG.


Attached is a rework of the 960x540 mp4 sample posted by lordsmurf, with side pillars cropped, resized to 720x480 for DVD, and encoded to MPEG for a 4:3 display aspect ratio. The attached MPEG has no side borders embedded in the 720x480 frame.

On an old-fashioned 4:3 standard definition display, the MPEG will fill a 4:3 display screen completely.
On a modern 16x9 display the MPEG will display a 4:3 image with pillarboxes on left and right to fill the frame. The pillarbox borders are placed there by the 16x9 display and are not part of the encoded image.

Cropping: 126 black pixels were removed from the left and 126 black pixels were removed from the right of the original 960x540 frames. Then 8 pixels of top border were removed and 2 pixels of bottom border were removed. The resulting square-pixel image measured 708x530 (which is a 1.338:1 aspect ratio, or very nearly 1.333:1, which is the same thing as 4:3). The square-pixel image was then resized to anamorphic 720x480 for DVD.

You can use whatever you want for the crop and resize, but I used Avisynth and saved the work as a lossless YV12 AVI with Lagarith lossless compression.
The Avi was encoded with interlace flags into MPEG2 for a 4:3 display DVD using TMPGenc Video Mastering Works 5.

Here is the Avisynth script I used:

Code:
aud = ffaudiosource("J:\forum\faq\superstar\WCW Nitro Ep134 1998-04-06 sample clip.mp4")
vid = ffvideosource("J:\forum\faq\superstar\WCW Nitro Ep134 1998-04-06 sample clip.mp4")
##--- remux audio and video --##
audiodub(vid,aud)

##-- increase chroma resolution for cleaner resizing --##
ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=false)
Crop(126,8,-126,-2)
Spline36Resize(720,480)

##-- Adjust color matrix from HD to SD for DVD --##
ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.709->Rec.601")

 ##-- Return to YV12 colorspace for MPEG encoding --##
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=false)

LSFmod()
##-- added to mask original low-bitrate posterizing effects --##
AddGrainC(1.25,1.25)
return last
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
What was hte steps for that you told me about having to encode it to 4x3 352x480 after I do the first encode, if the bars can't be removed?
No one said anything about multiple encodes, which would most certainly trash your video. Why would you want to throw away half of your 720-wide horizontal resolution by cutting quality with a lower-resolution 352-pixel lossy re-encode?

[EDIT}
And if you don't use your PC media player at full-screen but size the player screen to the source MPEG, you'll see that the side pillars are not added by the display at that playback size.



Attached Images
File Type: jpg A_original 960x540.jpg (39.7 KB, 27 downloads)
File Type: jpg B_720x480 anamorphic crop and resize.jpg (86.5 KB, 27 downloads)
File Type: jpg C_MPEG 4x3 DVD Display.jpg (76.8 KB, 27 downloads)
File Type: jpg D_Media Player performance.jpg (35.9 KB, 26 downloads)
Attached Files
File Type: mpg sample_No_Borders_DVD.mpg (26.72 MB, 1 downloads)

Last edited by sanlyn; 11-18-2018 at 11:31 PM.
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  #33  
11-18-2018, 11:34 PM
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Thanks! Very educational post. I wish I understand this all more thoroughly. For years, I just put my extensive VHS collection on DVD, this is the first time that i've tackled anything like this. I wasn't even planning on doing this black bar thing. Once I started this project, that's when I noticed the black bars and realized I didn't want them on my final DVDs. I hadn't taken it into consideration before I started this particular project. It's definitely become stressful for me

I've re-read your post several times now before I'm typing this reply, trying to understand everything before I replied

So, your pics A and B are what I start with. Pic B is the settings I use after I encode the settings from your pic 1. However, I've never cropped/resized anything, #1 because I don't really know how to. #2, I've been scared that it would ruin the picture quality from how it looks in your pic A, because it really is good pic quality because I'm removing the videos directly from their network.

So, to clarify. To get the bars out, as in pic B, I MUST crop and resize. Correct?

If so, what kind of effect does that seem to have on picture quality? It seems pics B and C seem a little lighter in quality than pic A

"Taking the 720x480 and cropping off 120px from each will give 480x480, which you'll then have to downsize to 352 to be compliant to the DVD specs."

That's something Smurf said in an earlier post, that's what I was referring to. I thought I'd have to re-encode again wtih those settings to remove the black bars, and I thought that'd be the final step, based off what he said. Unless I misunderstood
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  #34  
11-18-2018, 11:49 PM
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This is how I feel reading/answering this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_1ruZWJigo
We're having a disconnect.

But this thread is getting complex when we don't go back to the original source...

The 352 thing is preference. 4x3 as 352x480 is fine. And if you started with the MPEG encode, not the MP4 source, the 720>720 stretch would be damaging, as only 480 is true picture, so 352 is better. (For VHS or off-air, I often do 352x480 for DVD. Quality can be just as much about bitrate as resolution, and you can get better allocation that still allows for more disc content at 352.)

Honestly, I'm actually getting confused now too.

Explain what you do and don't understand. Let's start again from there...

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Last edited by lordsmurf; 11-20-2018 at 09:41 PM. Reason: Clarification...
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  #35  
11-19-2018, 12:42 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
So, your pics A and B are what I start with. Pic B is the settings I use after I encode the settings from your pic 1.
Nope. You started with picture A and you stayed with picture A, including its black borders, during your entire workflow and encoded for 16x9, putting yourself back where you started. That's why your workflow doesn't work the way you want -- you never removed the black borders that are embedded in the original source frames.

I'm still trying to figure out how you looked at those frames in the graphical interface of Mastering Works and didn't notice that the original black borders never went away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
However, I've never cropped/resized anything, #1 because I don't really know how to.
You can't crop off pixels in Mastering Works. It's basically and encoder, not an editor. You need an editor or restoration app that allows it, and not all editors will let you do so. You can crop in Avisynth and VirtualDub. Some of the other free encoders and converters will let you crop, but I don't use any of them so I can't help there.

Cropping off border pixels does nothing to the core image content. Pixels that belong to the image are left intact. The image itself isn't altered until the image is actually resized. However, there are strict rules for cropping based on colorspace and frame structure. Those rules aren't exclusive to Avisynth or Virtualdub, but apply to all video processing apps, even the expensive ones.

Images B and C look "lighter" than image (A) because they don't have the black borders that make you think the top image has more contrast. In fact, the black levels and contrast are the same for all the images. That can easily be proven by examining levels in histograms, which I did very early in my workflow. However, B and C are actually a little softer because of resizing imperfections and because C is a re-encode of an original that already has low bitrate lossy effects. Every lossy re-encode of a lossy original will have lower quality to some degree or other. That's the nature of digital encoding and there is no way around it. That is why lossy codecs aren't used in digital capture and cleanup work -- rather, lossless codecs are used for workfiles. Lossy encoding would be the very last step in a workflow.

The original frame is a 16x9 frame with dimensions 960x540. The original 4:3 image inside that frame is 708x530. After the black border pixels are removed from all 4 sides, the image is still 708x530 and hasn't changed. Then the image is resized, at which time the image and the frame are both the same size, 720x480. There is no further cropping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
So, to clarify. To get the bars out, as in pic B, I MUST crop and resize. Correct?
Partly. To get rid of the black bars, you have to crop. To get to DVD or any other official spec, you have to resize -- 708x530 is an oddball size that doesn't match with anyone's official requirements, and YouTube would just laugh at it and then resize to a more conventional dimension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
"Taking the 720x480 and cropping off 120px from each will give 480x480, which you'll then have to downsize to 352 to be compliant to the DVD specs."
Not sure where you're going with this. 720x480 would already be a full-sized image for DVD or standard definition BluRay. Why would you remove that many pixels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The 352 thing is preference. 4x3 as 352x480 is fine. And if you started with the MPEG encode, not the MP4 source, the 720>720 stretch would be damaging, as only 480 is true picture, so 352 is better. (For VHS or off-air, I often do 352x480 for DVD. Quality can be just as much about bitrate as resolution, and you can get better allocation that still allows for more disc content at 352.)
I don't get that at all. 352x480 is strictly for utility IMO and is a much softer image than 720x480. You'll have to convince me that 1/2 the resolution of 720 pixels is 'better'. Having used that 1/2 frame size myself for captures as well as digital recordings, and having paid for it in cheap retail DVD issues, I find it very unimpressive to watch even at high bitrates.

Last edited by sanlyn; 11-19-2018 at 12:54 AM.
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  #36  
11-19-2018, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
352x480 is strictly for utility IMO and is a much softer image than 720x480. You'll have to convince me that 1/2 the resolution of 720 pixels is 'better'.
The source MP4 detail is lost due to deblock, and 352x is probably closer to the actual detail. I don't really have a preference on this source, it will look about the same either way. The bigger problem with wrestling is bitrate, and you need superbit (5@352 or 9@720). Even then, you get noise, a content type where DVD-Video fails to perform. With 352, you can still fit 2+ hours, while with 720 you only get 1.

It's not an easy decision, not just about resolution. Several factors must be weighed.

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  #37  
11-19-2018, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The source MP4 detail is lost due to deblock, and 352x is probably closer to the actual detail. I don't really have a preference on this source, it will look about the same either way. The bigger problem with wrestling is bitrate, and you need superbit (5@352 or 9@720). Even then, you get noise, a content type where DVD-Video fails to perform. With 352, you can still fit 2+ hours, while with 720 you only get 1.

It's not an easy decision, not just about resolution. Several factors must be weighed.
OK, I get your meaning now. It just "reads" differently at 2 a.m., LOL.
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  #38  
11-21-2018, 07:11 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
Here's (31-33) a screenshot of the advanced settings in the program.
You can crop and resize in TMPGenc Video Mastering Works 6 using its "Filters" dialogs. Crop and resize aren't as precise or clean as they would be in Avisynth, but they'll get the job done. First, you have to set up the Format and output settings dialogs that you posted in the first 3 screenshots in post #26 on November 18. After setting up those dialogs, use the "Filters" window to crop and size your output video.

I used TMVW version 5 to get the settings. The dialog windows are a different layout in version 5 than in version 6, but the settings would be the same.

Add an internet download video to TVMW and enter its original parameters in the input text boxes:
File name: whatever the file name is.
Display Mode: Progressive.
Field Order: Top Field First
Aspect Ratio: Pixel 1:1 (square pixel)
Framerate: 29.97

If you don't know this information, take the input defaults that TMVW enters.

[Notice, above, that your input video display mode is progressive, but in the encoder setup below, the video will be encoded as interlaced to insure compatibility with older playback decks].

The basic format for which you want to encode should be set for "MPEG for DVD".

Setup for screenshot (31) "Video" category dialog:
Stream Format: MPEG-2 video
Video Encoder: Standard Encoder
Profile & Level: MP@ML
Size: 720x480
Aspect Ratio: Display 4:3
Framerate: 29.97 fps
Scan Type: Interlaced
Field Order: Top Field First
Rate Control mode: VBR (average bitrate)
VBV buffer size: 224 (or whatever is set at default)
Performance: Slow

[right-hand side dialog box, VBR settings:]
Multipass settings:
- Pass Count: 2 pass

Bitrate/Quality:
- Bitrate (or average bitrate): 7000
- Maximum bitrate: 9000
- Minimum Bitrate: 2000
- Quality: (This should be grayed out, or take the default)
Audio bitrate: 320 kbps

Setup for screenshot (32) "GOP" category dialog:
Normal Number of frames in GOP: 15
Maximum Number of frames in GOP: 15
Minimum Number of Frames in GOP: (take default. Do not change this)
Number of B Frames in GOP: 2
enable "Output sequence header for each GOP
enable "Output bitstream for editing (closed GOP)
disable "start closed GOP with B frame"
enable "Detect scene change"

Setup for screenshot (33) "Advanced" settings dialogs:
Take the default for each setting, except the following:
Under "Video Settings" category:
- Video Format: should be NTSC

Under "Motion Search Settings":
- Type: "Highest (with error correction)" if available, otherwise "Standard"

After you have entered those settings, go into the "Filters" dialogs. You'll see an icon that's labeled "Filters" in the Edit or Cut-edit window.

The image below is what your typical 16x9 video looks like with its original side borders.



There are a few border pixels across the top and bottom as well, but don't worry about them. TVMW doesn't center properly if you crop the vertical dimension, so just leave the top and bottom as they are. There are not enough top and bottom pixels to worry about, and cropping them off will give you a distorted aspect ratio vertically. So crop off the left and right side borders only.

The image below shows how the Crop filter works. You have tomenable cropping in the big icon on the left and in the main dialog window. The orangfe arrows show the crop icon and the center dialog settings. The settings show 126 pixels cropped off the left and right sides. Don't crop off the top or bottom and don't make entries in the other boxes. The picture in the viewing window shows you the results of the crop. Always use even-numbered pixel values. Never use odd-numbered pixel values in YUV video.

Cropping filter setup


Next, the image belopw shows the resize filter. After cropping is done, some of the entries in this dialog are already set to defaults. in this dialog the output frame size has already been set to 720x480 in earlier setup windows. Set "Picture Position" to Full screen and "Resize method" to Lancsoz-3. The checkboxes for "Keep aspect ratio" and for "Output interlace with high quality resize" should not be checked.

Resize Setup



You will have to set the crop and resize filters for each clip that you add to the video.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg A original input frame.jpg (45.6 KB, 23 downloads)
File Type: jpg B Cropping filter setup.jpg (115.0 KB, 23 downloads)
File Type: jpg C Resize Setup.jpg (115.7 KB, 23 downloads)
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The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: Superstar (11-21-2018)
  #39  
11-21-2018, 11:00 PM
Superstar Superstar is offline
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This is absolutely amazing! Thank you so much!
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  #40  
11-22-2018, 12:26 AM
Superstar Superstar is offline
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Quick question about the bitrate settings.

You said 7000 in the bitrate box. 9000 in maximum then 2000 in minimum.

Just to confirm, I would only put 7 in the bitrate. 9 in max and 2 in minimum, correct?

It doesn't seem to be letting me put actually 7000, 9000, 2000. When I try, it's automatically changing it to different numbers, so I was thinking, instead of 7000, I'd just put 7, etc

Is that correct?
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