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-   -   Captured VHS - What size for 4x3 aspect ratio? (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-editing/8662-captured-vhs-size.html)

RockandRoller70 04-24-2018 08:08 AM

Captured VHS - What size for 4x3 aspect ratio?
 
I've been resizing my video in Virtual Dub to convert to 4x3 ratio as one of the final steps of my conversions as seen in the image.

I've read some conflicting information on if this is causing any degradation in the captured video. I also wonder because the relative % says 100 x 112.5 which would lead me to believe that it's enlarging the source which would result in a degradation of quality.

My vids aren't necessarily intended for DVD, however I always want to give the option to burn them.

My prime concern is they look the best and these will mostly played on a computer monitor via VLC or streamed via Plex or similar.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2q2mp09.jpg

Can someone please advise on how I should size here to get the best VHS captures?

Thanks!

sanlyn 04-24-2018 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockandRoller70 (Post 53917)
My vids aren't necessarily intended for DVD, however I always want to give the option to burn them.

NTSC DVD accepts 720x480, 704x480, or 352x480. Standard definition BluRay accepts 720x480 and 704x480. (720x480 required for 16:9 DAR). PAL DVD is 720x576,704x576, or 354x576. PAL standard definition BluRay is 720x480 or 704x480. Use 720x576 for 16:9.

Not enough information here. How is the video being captured? What lossless or lossy format are you working with? If you're capturing to lossy codecs, why? What frame size are you capturing? Are the videos interlaced or telecined?

What is the purpose of a frame size 720x540 (a non-standard frame size), which is mod-4 and not the optimal mod=8 in height?. Your playback hardware and software upscales better if you stick with mod-8 sizes. If you posted 720x540 on the internet it would be resized by the website. Can't your streaming setup work with anamorphic video? Maybe you need a better setup that can handle standard square-pixel playback sizes. Ever heard of 640x480? That would resize only the horizontal dimension if you captured to 720x480. You are resizing the vertical, which is more damaging and will ruin interlaced video. Are you deinterlacing? How? Can't your playback system handled standard interlaced or telecined video? Are you denoising VHS defects before resizing?

Does resizing always cost, to some level or other? Yes. Especially with noisy video.

RockandRoller70 04-24-2018 09:41 AM

Sounds like there's a lot I don't know here but thanks for taking the time to assist.

I'm capturing using an AIW 600 USB via Virtual Dub and using Huffyuv codec. Lately, I've been deinterlacing with QTGMC before I resize. Depending on the quality of the source, I will apply other filters as necessary but try to keep to a minimum.

I'm using the resize filter in Virtual Dub and thus that's who I ended up with 720x540. I was under the impression that it was a supported size and that 640x480 was not good. Apparently I've been mistaken.

I also use the "Border Control" filter to mask the noise at the bottom and black areas on the left/right side.

I want the best possible video quality for VHS that's 4x3 aspect ratio.

RockandRoller70 04-24-2018 10:06 AM

Should I be setting a custom video format in Virtual Dub?

And then set a particular frame size to capture?

Edit: NM, I see you recommend 720x480 in the VDub thread. I assumed that was the default.

Edit 2: Looks like my VDub settings match your recommendations since I downloaded the 1.9.11 from here so good in that regard.

hodgey 04-24-2018 11:05 AM

With files in mkv and mp4 (not sure about AVI containers the aspect ratio can be specified, which tells the player how to display the video, and no manual resizing is needed.i Not sure where you can set that in virtualdub though. Some codecs have options for pixel aspect ratios (at least x264 and x265), and it's possible to modify the aspect ratio flag in an existing file without reencoding using tools like mp4box or ffmpeg.

sanlyn 04-24-2018 11:10 AM

It's good that you're using QTGMC and deinterlacing before resizing. If you're using QTGMC's defaults (that's the "slow" setting) it's strong filtering, but maybe you need it for VHS. But since you're using Avisynth for QTGMC, why not use Avisynth to fix your borders properly? Apparently you haven't looked at many of our restoration or repair threads and posts -- methods for doing this using Crop() and AddBorders() are all over the place. Try looking at post #17 in an earlier thread that discusses an avisynth script in line-by-line detail doing several things, as well as demos using some other Virtualdub filters. There are several other posts in that thread that cover image modification, which in that thread is somewhat of a problem image. You should know by now that resizing in Virtualdub uses methods inferior to those in Avisynth and makes an unnecessary RGB conversion.

You'll get cleaner and sharper resizing without the usual softening or oversharp artifacts using Spline36Resize in Avisynth.

I don't know why 640x480 seems so strange as display. Haven't you ever seen a CRT? The screen size was 640x480 pixels. Ever seen the old CRT computer monitors or a 4x3 LCD? Screen size was almost always 640x480. 640x480. For many decades 640x480 was the only size home mainstream display you could get.

Most people capture VHS to 720x480. That gives you a decent amount of luma and chroma data to work with. If your primary purpose is square-pixel frame streaming, capture to 640x480 (note: you will still have borders and head-switching noise to fix). You can leave it interlaced or not, but for DVD or standard def BluRay you have to deinterlace, then Spline36Resize to 720x480, then re-interlace (do all this in Avisynth for better quality and to avoid RGB conversion in Virtualdub). Then for DVD or BD disc encode for 4:3 display. Note that you cannot make DVD or standard def BluRay from 59.94 fps deinterlaced video.

If you capture to 720x480 you're ready for DVD or BluRay (and, frankly, just about any home streaming setup should be able to play DVD format from hard disc storage without modification) -- but in case your setup isn't that smart, deinterlace 720x480 and resize it to square-pixel 640x480 as 59.94 fps deinterlaced. That will resize only on the horizontal plain, for less damage to the vertical.

If any of your tapes are telecined video, you'll permanently damage the results by deinterlacing. Use Avisynth's IVTC instead (inverse telecine).

By the way, many newbies come up to you with this upscaling business from VHS. They'd suggest doing an upscale to 1440x1080. Maybe you'd like to know what the pros and experts would say. They would say, in the first place, that your HD media can upscale low-resolution sources far better than you can with your home computer. They would also say that there is absolutely zero advantage and absolutely no gain to upscaling VHS capture to big blurry blowups. It's not frame size that gives the definition to high definition, it's high resolution in the source. Low-resolution standard def VHS captures blown up to big frames in software look like badly blurred enlargements from postage stamps. Let your TV and media players do the work for you.

RockandRoller70 04-24-2018 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn (Post 53923)
I don't know why 640x480 seems so strange as display. Haven't you ever seen a CRT? The screen size was 640x480 pixels. Ever seen the old CRT computer monitors or a 4x3 LCD? Screen size was almost always 640x480. 640x480. For many decades 640x480 was the only size home mainstream display you could get.

There's a wealth of information on this site, but sometimes reading different threads gives different impressions:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/8434-resize-video-640x480.html#post52356


Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn (Post 53923)
Most people capture VHS to 720x480. That gives you a decent amount of luma and chroma data to work with. If your primary purpose is square-pixel frame streaming, capture to 640x480 (note: you will still have borders and head-switching noise to fix). You can leave it interlaced or not, but for DVD or standard def BluRay you have to deinterlace, then Spline36Resize to 720x480, then re-interlace (do all this in Avisynth for better quality and to avoid RGB conversion in Virtualdub). Then for DVD or BD disc encode for 4:3 display. Note that you cannot make DVD or standard def BluRay from 59.94 fps deinterlaced video.

If you capture to 720x480 you're ready for DVD or BluRay (and, frankly, just about any home streaming setup should be able to play DVD format from hard disc storage without modification) -- but in case your setup isn't that smart, deinterlace 720x480 and resize it to square-pixel 640x480 as 59.94 fps deinterlaced. That will resize only on the horizontal plain, for less damage to the vertical.

Let's throw the DVD use case out as these are going to live as files in MKV or MP4 containers in h264 on my hard drive.

I see no way in Handbrake to force the aspect ratio to 4x3. The only way I understood how to do that was in Virtual Dub via resizing from 720x480. I was resizing to 720x540, but I'm clearly losing quality. 640x480 would seem to make more sense and retain quality and 4x3 aspect ratio?

Is that the case? Or can I somehow leave in 720x480 and have Handbrake set a DAR in MKV/MP4 that tells VLC (or whatnot) to display in 4x3?

As far as using VirtualDub, it just seemed easier. You can make settings changes and see them instantly. I'm not quite sure how you get that granularity using AviSynth.

sanlyn 04-25-2018 04:51 AM

640x480 makes more sense because it's a standard commercial frame format. It doesn't necessarily mean greater quality, depending on the methods used to get to that size. You'd get higher quality if you capture to 640x480 to begin with and don't resize. If you have to resize you'll retain more quality using Avisynth's methods than using VirtuaLDub's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockandRoller70 (Post 53924)
As far as using VirtualDub, it just seemed easier. You can make settings changes and see them instantly. I'm not quite sure how you get that granularity using AviSynth.

I don't really understand that. If you're running a script in Virtualdub, and you change the script, you reopen the script and instantly see the changes.

I still don't understand what people see in Handbrake, but use it if that's what you want. AviDemux is also a favorite. I don't use either, they aren't as flexible as paid encoders and editors.

RockandRoller70 04-25-2018 07:37 AM

I see what you're saying about the changes showing immediately in VDub, I guess it's just perception and the fact I can see both the original and changed video at the same time.

Another reason I've been using Virtual Dub is AviSynth has caused me issues. It works well for QTGMC for me, however just last night I decided to do the resizing also as discussed here (Spline36Resize, Crop, AddBorders) and while it looked fine in VirtualDub, the resulting saved video was totally unusable. It was like the video frame got turned diagonal in the screen window but also had flashing. Just a mess. I'm going to try it again and see what happens, but I've experienced issues in the past using AviSynth so that's pushed me back to VDub.

I'm am definitely interested in getting the absolute best quality possible though, so I'd like to get this working.

What do you recommend over Handbrake and why?

metaleonid 04-25-2018 11:19 AM

I always capture in either 720x480(576) or 704x480(576) losslessly compressed into Huffyuv AVI. When I need make DVD, I go for 352x480(576). If I have captured in 720x480(576), I first strip 16 pixels total from the sides to make it 704x480(576) and then resize to 352x480(576)

480 is for NTSC,
576 for PAL/SECAM.

hodgey 04-25-2018 11:20 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by RockandRoller70 (Post 53924)
Is that the case? Or can I somehow leave in 720x480 and have Handbrake set a DAR in MKV/MP4 that tells VLC (or whatnot) to display in 4x3?

Yeah, it's possible in handbrake, see the attached images.
x264vfw also has an option in virtualdub (though you have to specify the pixel aspect ratio rather than the display ratio)

alternatively, you can set the aspect ratio with ffmpeg directly, without re-encoding like this:
Code:

ffmpeg.exe -i input.mkv -c copy -aspect 4:3 output.mkv
in the windows (or other OS) command line, provided that ffmpeg is in the same folder, or in a folder that is in the system PATH variable.

RockandRoller70 04-25-2018 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockandRoller70 (Post 53928)
however just last night I decided to do the resizing also as discussed here (Spline36Resize, Crop, AddBorders) and while it looked fine in VirtualDub, the resulting saved video was totally unusable.

I redid this after I trimmed off what may have been some corrupt video at the beginning and it worked great. :congrats:

RockandRoller70 04-25-2018 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey (Post 53931)
Yeah, it's possible in handbrake, see the attached images.
x264vfw also has an option in virtualdub (though you have to specify the pixel aspect ratio rather than the display ratio)

alternatively, you can set the aspect ratio with ffmpeg directly, without re-encoding like this:
Code:

ffmpeg.exe -i input.mkv -c copy -aspect 4:3 output.mkv
in the windows (or other OS) command line, provided that ffmpeg is in the same folder, or in a folder that is in the system PATH variable.

Your version of Handbrake looks vastly different than mine.

However, ffmpeg worked like a charm! Thank you!

RockandRoller70 04-27-2018 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey (Post 53931)
alternatively, you can set the aspect ratio with ffmpeg directly, without re-encoding like this:
Code:

ffmpeg.exe -i input.mkv -c copy -aspect 4:3 output.mkv
in the windows (or other OS) command line, provided that ffmpeg is in the same folder, or in a folder that is in the system PATH variable.

One thing about this method I'm seeing, VLC displays the video larger than MPC-HC.

Edit: I've tested other files and it happens with those too, so it must be a difference with how these two programs display content.

hodgey 05-01-2018 05:31 PM

1 Attachment(s)
h.264 has an embedded pixel aspect ratio setting (other codecs may too, probably h.265 at least), it seems ffmpeg only changes aspect ratio info in the container (mp4, mkv) (when not reencoding). Maybe different players react differently if there is a mismatch. mp4box is able to change the stream one though it seems. It only supports mp4 containers, but ffmpeg and many programs can remux to and from mkv without re-encoding if that's needed.

Also attached a screenshot of the settings in the latest windows version of handbrake (1.1) , in case it helps.


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