Video8 deinterlace has jagged edges?

[FreeLemons]

I have been digitizing some Video8's from my family collection and I have noticed that even after deinterlacing they appear to retain very noticeable jagged edges.

The VHS's I have captured have behaved much better when testing out deinterlaced clips. This seems to be a problem with the Video8's specifically.

Video8 Sony Handycam -> FA-125 TBC -> ATI TV Wonder 600 USB

Capture settings are the same as the more successful VHS captures. Huffy lossless.

Avi Script used:

AVISource("E:\VHS Archive\River Queen_Clip.avi")
ConvertToYV12
AssumeTFF()
QTGMC(Preset="Slower", SourceMatch=3, Lossless=2, MatchEnhance=0.75, TR2=1, Sharpness=0.1)
SelectEven()
santiag(strh=2,strv=2)
ConvertToYUY2

I am only concerned because if it does look good in a deinterlace test, then I reason it won't look good on a TV after distributing my project to family.

[FreeLemons]

So after some experimenting today, it seems that the problem is definitely arising during capture. It appears to look better when the TBC is left out of the workflow. I have no idea why though.

[hodgey]

What camcorder are you using? Is it one with a built-in TBC? I don't think that model of TBC does much for horizontal jitter , you would ideally want a camcorder with a TBC for that. (Or less powerful but also usable on VHS tapes, a DVD-recorder that works for pass-through)

[sanlyn]

The edge distortion isn't aliasing. The serrated edges look like tbc circuitry problems to me.
Below are 2x blowups from sections of different frames. Notice the vertical edges, especially on high contrast objects, and even on frame borders.

[lordsmurf]

That's really odd.

I know that FA-125 is fine, and passed all my extensive tests.

But you got it back in early 2018. So questions would be: how was it stored, where was it stored, what your climate is? If not stored optimally, bad things can happen to components. I doubt this is the case, but potential, so felt need to mention it.

Did you alter anything on the FA-125? It has a lot of toggles and screwdriver settings, which could cause this. Even the fan inside can cause it, which is why I often disconnect it. Getting these items set can be an ordeal for the untrained, which is why it should not be adjusted. When set properly, this model TBC can perform as well as a DataVideo.

The more likely problem is that you're having a bad workflow interaction. That's a primary reason that I test entire workflows together, as opposed to just testing pieces. VCRs, cameras, TBCs, and capture cards can hate one another. It's even true of the computer doing the capture, but less so that the other hardware in the chain.

To eliminate the TBC as having a problem, you need to do a process of elimination. Test the TBC with a VCR, not the camera. If problem still exists, then capture card or computer interaction could be the problem. Or the more screwy camera/capture or capture/computer scenario, which I've seen few times. Do not knee-jerk blame any component, which is too often what happens by laymen in the tech world

You now have some research and work to do. Good luck.

If it makes you feel better, realize I've seen this sort of issue before. It took troubleshooting to locate and solve it.

[FreeLemons]

Camcorder is a Sony CCD-FX730. Only manual I have is in French (yeesh) but I did find a badly scanned online one. No mention that I can spot of TBC built in. If its there it must be understated which you wouldn't think likely.

I had been using the TBC with the VCR->TBC->Capture Card setup just before I switched to using it with the Camcorder.

I believe the TBC was performing its duties with the VCR. I did have to open it up to switch a dipswitch so it would use the composite input instead of the s-video. Fan has been connected since I got it.

I will test it out tomorrow with previous setup. Maybe I buggered something, should be a good test.

Thanks for getting back to me.

Also, climate is pretty dry (Alberta). Has been on my desk past year. I don't think I've messed with anything other than the dip switch.

[lordsmurf]

On that model, I always disconnect the fan. It's often a problem, leaks noise, and completely unnecessary in non-24/7 usage. Thankfully a simple disconnect usually correct it. Some copies are simple PC-type fan plugs, while others are soldered on. So if it came from me, it must have been disconnected. If the fan is connected, then it either not from me, or it was opened and reconnected. Some people freak out about the blinking fault light when the fan is disconnected, but the fear is unfounded.

Those dip switches can be confusing, as those are tiny, touchy, and identical to a non-user-adjustable switch bank nearby. So be sure it was the right bank that was adjusted. And then verify none of the other toggles were moved even a fraction of a mm. Perhaps re-test as s-video, then re-test switched back to composite. My composite testing is basic, as this unit should be used with s-video.

As mentioned, great TBC, when properly calibrated (not easy). But easy to screw up.

That is an old camera from 1994, and likely does not have TBC.

It is highly suggested to get a better with-TBC model camera, and with s-video output.

The TBC probably hates the camera, as it is outputting a dirty signal. I'm almost certain this is the case. Feel free to test the TBC, verify what is happening, but I doubt any change will happen, due to the camera.

[jwillis84]

minor suggestion..

Disconnecting the interior fan is a good idea, for all the reasons stated.

USB fans from AC Infinity are available brand new from Amazon that will plug directly into a USB port (or USB wall plug) and provide a remote-able method of cooling. You could get some flexible pipe from Home Depot or someplace to "channel the negative or positive" air flow into the case through the same vent.. while keeping the fan far far away.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwillis84

USB fans from AC Infinity are available brand new from Amazon that will plug directly into a USB port (or USB wall plug) and provide a remote-able method of cooling. You could get some flexible pipe from Home Depot or someplace to "channel the negative or positive" air flow into the case through the same vent.. while keeping the fan far far away.

It's really not needed. DataVideos run twice as hot, metal cases that reflect more than absorb heat, and have zero air intakes. The FA is vented on all sides, aluminum casing that absorb. These were broadcast designed for latter consumer sources. The most that could be done is to heatsink the main chips. But seeing as how he's Canada, heat probably isn't a concern.

It's not a flawless TBC, and you'd never want to get one from sketchy sources like eBay (aka the video gear dumping ground), but these can be tuned to perform nicely. Not that you'll see many anyway, niche model with low production, I may see 2 per year at most. The FA-128 is more prevalent, and it's a POS (that dumb idea that "VHS is low quality, so composite is all you need").

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

The TBC probably hates the camera, as it is outputting a dirty signal. I'm almost certain this is the case.

Except for the specific "serrated" appearance, isn't this just expected behaviour from connecting a source with no line TBC to the FA-125?

Per your post that hodgey linked:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Like a DataVideo or Cypress TBC, it does nothing for technical jitter (wiggling picture). It's an external framesync TBC, not line/field TBC.

If we separate the sample into half-fields instead of just fields, the black borders ripple endlessly.

AVISource("River Queen_Clip.avi").AssumeTFF()
SeparateFields()
AssumeFrameBased().SeparateFields()

[FreeLemons]

So I did some testing this morning, and here are the results.

I hooked the Camcorder directly into the composite input of the capture card, direct as it gets. (File Camcorder Direct)

I found the capture I had done previously of same scene with Camcorder->FA-125->Capture Card using the composite input. (File Camcorder through TBC)

Comparison seems to show that the direct version will deinterlace fine, whereas the TBC version does not.

I was wondering if the Composite input on the TBC could be to blame, as I had used the S-video input with all the VHS captures before switching to the Video 8's. I hooked up VCR->TBC(composite input)->Capture card and it seems to me that it worked just fine (obviously the quality isn't the best but the deinterlace seemed fine).

So I have to conclude, unless I have missed something, that the Camcorder just isn't the best option. It is a shame though because it is the Camcorder that the videos were filmed on. It can play them back on a CRT just fine too. Just doesn't seem to be good enough for the FA-125 as an input source.

What later gen Video8 Camcorder with a built in line TBC should I look for? Recommendations?

[cbehr91]

I use a Sony DCR-TRV740 Digital8 camera for Hi8/Video8 capture. It has S-Video out and a built-in TBC (and DNR that visibly does nothing...I leave it off). Anyway, pretty much any Hi8/Digital8 camera with S-Video out and a built-in TBC should help.

[lordsmurf]

Use Hi8, sometimes D8, not Video8.
The Video8 cameras are all pretty lousy, not much different from plain VHS VCRs/cameras.

[FreeLemons]

What say ye to this offering?

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Sony-Handyca...EAAOSwUY9daXJX

[cbehr91]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreeLemons

What say ye to this offering?

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Sony-Handyca...EAAOSwUY9daXJX

I have that same model camera, works great. Has the preferred TBC/DNR circuit and one really nice feature is fulll size RCA jacks, not a modified 1/8 jack like most cameras (as well as S-Video, of course).

Edit: Didn't notice it was a mislabel. A TRV85 if you can find one is a decent choice.

[hodgey]

It looks like they've mislabeled it, the images show a CCD-TRV36, which lacks TBC and only has composite out. An actual CCD-TRV 85 would be a decent choice on the other hand.

There are some lists floating around, though we could really use a 8mm video buying guide. All of the Sony cameras with TBC/DNR have very similar performance.

Avoid the older Sony Hi8 cameras, they have a fully black case (example), no TBC and frequency have issues.

TBC/DNR was featured in the most newer (mostly silver or blue casing) Sony Hi8 and Hi8 XR cameras, but some of the low-end Hi8 ones did not have it so check the manual if unsure.

The Digital8 cameras that could play analog tapes also feature TBC/DNR, the exception being the first lineup like DCR-TRV107, 110 and other DCR-TRVX10. The last model, the DCR-TRV480 lacks S-Video so I would suggesting avoiding that one as well.

[msgohan]

Are you far from one of the bigger cities in Alberta?

I would search locally if possible instead of eBay. Try Kijiji, garage sales, Value Village, etc.

With 8mm tape sources I've used Sony DCR-TRV340 and Sony CCD-TR818. I hate the way these process Video8 signals. Overprocessed with sharpening halos and shimmery edges. I also briefly tried Sony GV-D800 Video Walkman, and I think the output is about the same but the tape I used was too trash to draw definitive conclusions.

Samples I've seen posted over the years

1. Sony CCD-TRV32 (Video8 model): https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...apture-Samples
2. Same Video8 tape via Sony CCD-TRV608 (Hi8 model): https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...ure-Comparison
3. Hi8 tape source I think; different sharpening levels with different player types: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...rv-840-ev.html

My picture quality preference from what I've personally tried is TEAC V-800G-F:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...&LH_Complete=1
https://www.southernadvantage.com/pr...sette-recorder

But there are no TBC/DNR functions. I use it with a passthrough.

The one I bought off eBay years ago was unused; previously the property of the US government. I see this article about another model.

[cbehr91]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

The Digital8 cameras that could play analog tapes also feature TBC/DNR, the exception being the first lineup like DCR-TRV107, 110 and other DCR-TRVX10. The last model, the DCR-TRV480 lacks S-Video so I would suggesting avoiding that one as well.

Pretty much all the 100 and 200 series D8 cams (maybe even all of them?) couldn't play back V8/Hi8 tapes. Only 300 series on up (not sure about the 310, but 320 on up can), plus the Walkman VCRs. The high-end late 90s V8/Hi8/XR cams shared the same robust TBC/DNR circuitry with the D8 cams and walkmans.

[msgohan]

120, 230, and 240 can do it.

VideoHelp: List of Sony Handycam Digital8 camcorders with analog/digital passthru
https://tdb0.wordpress.com/2015/01/3...i8-recordings/ (can't vouch for accuracy; even the author says his list may be wrong)

https://www.sony.com/electronics/sup...icles/00026519

Quote:

The following models of Digital 8® camcorders cannot play tapes recorded in the analog 8mm or Hi8™ formats.

• DCR-TRV130
• DCR-TRV140
• DCR-TRV250
• DCR-TRV260
• DCR-TRV265
• DCR-TRV280

hodgey: DCR-TRV107 is a MiniDV cam.

[hodgey]

Was a typo, I meant DCR-TRV103.

Quote:

With 8mm tape sources I've used Sony DCR-TRV340 and Sony CCD-TR818. I hate the way these process Video8 signals. Overprocessed with sharpening halos and shimmery edges.

I've come across that TEAC unit when browsing the net before, interesting machine, though SP only.

Have you tried any of the hitachi camcorders? I've got a Hitachi VM-D865LE digital8 one, don't have an example shot right now but I found it to be a bit less sharp and noisy compared to the Sony, but still pretty nice. Chroma is a bit more noisy than on the Sony, guessing it doesn't filter it as much, which may be a good or bad thing depending on perspective. The TBC usually works well, though I did notice it "jumping" on a tape I had, granted I haven't used it a lot. On the plus side it doesn't blue screen on bad signal like the Sony does. Don't know if all of this would apply to the Hi8 models and/or NTSC though.