Quantcast Really bad vertical jittering? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
03-28-2021, 06:39 PM
ofesad ofesad is offline
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Hi people! Ofesad here.

I just got a work for a old tv show and when playing the tapes on my AG4700 and HS1000 -(svideo)-> Datavideo SE500 -(svideo)-> Ati X800XL I see a lot of vertical jitter.

However the jitter is gone in my AGW1 (composite output).

So, maybe it's hardware related?. Kinda weird since they are two similar yet different machines.
However it's not the first time I see vertical jitter in these machines. But depends on the tape.

Still I uploaded a small trim so you can see the problem. (see attachments)

I already try'd stab() and stabmod() by lordsmurf, but didnt help much.
Also was testing DePanStabilize() but not much improvement.

If any had some sucess on removing it or have any suggestions on what to try on avysinth, I am open to ideas!

Thank you all for reading!

Ofesad.


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File Type: avi Trim.avi (85.74 MB, 14 downloads)
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  #2  
03-28-2021, 11:54 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Since chroma is affected too, looks like a bad recording on a VCR that has a pinch roller problem or something, Is the tape damaged? This is going to be tough, I'm not sure if this can be fixed with a script.
You said composite doesn't have jitter, did you try the same section of the tape or while the tape playing you switched to composite?
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  #3  
03-29-2021, 12:44 AM
ofesad ofesad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Since chroma is affected too, looks like a bad recording on a VCR that has a pinch roller problem or something, Is the tape damaged? This is going to be tough, I'm not sure if this can be fixed with a script.
You said composite doesn't have jitter, did you try the same section of the tape or while the tape playing you switched to composite?
Yeah I think the same. I'll probably do a recapture in other decks. I have a couple of FS88 that need to clean the mode switch, but havent found a proper guide on how to do it and the Panasonic G mechanism it's a hassle to work on. (yes, I have the service manuals)

Actually there are several tapes, some have more jitter, others less.

Condition of the tape is ok. They where stored in cases and in bags. No visible dust.

The capture I uploaded is from one of the tapes playing on the HS1000.

Other tape was having problems playing, I tested it on 4 different vcrs:two HS1000, one AG4700 and one AGW1. Only worked on the AGW1 and one HS1000. In the others there was no picture or distorted.

Comparing the same section/frames captured of the AGW1 vs the HS1000 on the same tape:
The HS1000 has lot of jitter.
The composite capture of the AGW1 is fine, little to none jitter.

Will test if the composite output of the HS1000 and see if it has the same problem.

I was also thinking to adjust some of the poles that carry the tape and see if improves.

Ofesad
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  #4  
03-29-2021, 03:47 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Different VCRs have different stability and tracking for tapes. The more uncooperative the tape, the starker those differences can be.

You also have all Panasonic decks. It's not just different models, or variations unit to unit, but brand as well. JVC and Panasonic approach tapes differently, which is why both are suggested. In fact, I often suggest JVC first, as Panasonic has more drawbacks (even if it can perform seeming miracles when JVCs fail).

Your "TBC" also isn't a frame TBC, but a mixer that "also has" a somewhat weak TBC. This sort of error is a known defect of these types of units. To test whether the mixer is at fault, remove it. See if it's the VCR at fault, the mixer, or a conflict between the two.

Now then...

Can this problem be solved in software? YES!
Easy? No.
Quick? Noooooooo.
The speed is single-digit fps, per script, and requires multiple scripts. (No, you cannot cram everything into a single script. It will crash. Not only that, but it's a mix of x86 and x64 scripts that are needed.)

It's also not just Avisynth, but Mercalli will be needed. (The stabilize can be done in Avisynth, but is harder and somewhat less accurate.)

See attached.


Attached Files
File Type: mp4 ofesad-Trim-beforeafter.mp4 (10.07 MB, 9 downloads)

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  #5  
03-29-2021, 05:13 AM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
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Quote:
The speed is single-digit fps
Mine is <1 :-(

Quote:
See attached.
Excellent result, congratulations!
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  #6  
03-29-2021, 05:58 AM
timtape timtape is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Different VCRs have different stability and tracking for tapes. The more uncooperative the tape, the starker those differences can be.

You also have all Panasonic decks. It's not just different models, or variations unit to unit, but brand as well. JVC and Panasonic approach tapes differently, which is why both are suggested. In fact, I often suggest JVC first, as Panasonic has more drawbacks (even if it can perform seeming miracles when JVCs fail)...
LS, I've never heard of JVC and Panasonic VCR's approaching tapes differently. Could you expand please?

Tim.
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  #7  
03-29-2021, 07:36 AM
ofesad ofesad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Different VCRs have different stability and tracking for tapes. The more uncooperative the tape, the starker those differences can be.

You also have all Panasonic decks. It's not just different models, or variations unit to unit, but brand as well. JVC and Panasonic approach tapes differently, which is why both are suggested. In fact, I often suggest JVC first, as Panasonic has more drawbacks (even if it can perform seeming miracles when JVCs fail).

Your "TBC" also isn't a frame TBC, but a mixer that "also has" a somewhat weak TBC. This sort of error is a known defect of these types of units. To test whether the mixer is at fault, remove it. See if it's the VCR at fault, the mixer, or a conflict between the two.
Yeah, I keep looking for JVC's decks but here (argentina) are impossible to find. The one time I saw one for sale the seller decided to sell it to someone closer to her location.
However theres a JVC HRS5000 for sale, might be worth getting? but this model doesnt have buil-in tbc.

Yes, I know that a better standalone TBC would be better, and you know I have been searching for one since I got into this forum, but in general, this mixer has give me a lot (and I do mean A LOT) of picture stability + 0 dropped frames since I have it, compared to using the deck directly or with some passthrugh.

Now I am looking for some of those dvd recorders (pioneers / sony. the panasonic also impossible to find) to use as passthrough and see if I can eliminate the jitter.

Also I just bought a digital transcoder (made in USA) with proc.amp. Nothing fancy but looked nice and was only 10usd. Pretty rare for what it was, at least here. Will arrive next week.


Question:
Do you know if the built-in TBC works only on playback? or it works on recording too?
I was thinking... What happens if you connect 2 vcrs (with built-in tbc) like:
deck1 svideo output -> deck2 svideo input -> deck2 svideo output -> capture card.
I know, it's crazy, but maybe the two tbc's in series would privide extra stability, if they work like that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Now then...

Can this problem be solved in software? YES!
Easy? No.
Quick? Noooooooo.
The speed is single-digit fps, per script, and requires multiple scripts. (No, you cannot cram everything into a single script. It will crash. Not only that, but it's a mix of x86 and x64 scripts that are needed.)

It's also not just Avisynth, but Mercalli will be needed. (The stabilize can be done in Avisynth, but is harder and somewhat less accurate.)

See attached.
Oh you little blue person!

Would you mind sharing the script order or functions needed?

On the other hand, the stabilization you made, was just Mercalli? Because if it was, I am sold.


Ofesad.
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  #8  
03-29-2021, 08:26 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Mercalli does interlace, but is lousy at it, so you must make it progressive:
Code:
AVISource("F:\Trim.avi")
assumetff
separatefields
Then the Mercalli pass.
This clip was easy, so I used the "rock steady" setting. But most clips cannot use it, and using it becomes more art than science. There are Avisynth alternatives, but each is very dependent on content.

This uses johnmeyer's Avisynth stabilize method, and seems to work well enough, but again this clip is easy: (NOTE: The field order is reversed, so need to resolve that.)
Code:
film="F:\trimtest1.avi" 
source=AviSource(film).converttoYV12() 
maxstabH=30 #maximum values for the stabiliser (in pixels) 20 is a good start value
maxstabV=30
est_left=40  est_top=40  est_right=40  est_bottom=40  #crop and contast values for special Estimate clip
est_cont=1.1 #Too large a value defeats stabilization
threads=3 #the number of processing threads, for greater stability, set 3/4 of the number of processor cores
SetMemoryMax(512) #memory usage limit
stab_reference= source.crop(est_left,est_top,-est_right,-est_bottom).tweak(cont=est_cont).MT_binarize(threshold=80).greyscale().invert()
mdata=DePanEstimate(stab_reference,trust=1.0,dxmax=maxstabH,dymax=maxstabV)
stab=DePanStabilize(source,data=mdata,cutoff=0.5,dxmax=maxstabH,dymax=maxstabV,method=1,mirror=15)#.deflicker()
stab
Then address interlace and that dot crawl:
Code:
AVISource("F:\sample ofesad-Trim-beforeafter\trimtest2-v2.avi")
assumefieldbased.weave
converttoyv12
qtgmc(preset="slower")
selecteven
checkmate(thr=12,max=25,tthr2=25)
Then address that chroma. This pass requires x64 and GPU
Code:
SetFilterMTMode("DEFAULT_MT_MODE", 1)
AVISource("F:\trimtest2b-v2.avi")
ConvertToYV16(interlaced=true)
orig=last
ev=orig.assumetff().separatefields().selecteven()
od=orig.assumetff().separatefields().selectodd()

ev
ue_chroma = UToY(ev).blur(0,1.5).binomialblur(5).ttempsmooth(maxr=6,lthresh=150, strength=6).KNLMeansCL(d=1, a=2, h=6, device_type = "GPU", device_id = 0, channels="Y")
ve_chroma = VToY(ev).blur(0,1.5).binomialblur(5).ttempsmooth(maxr=6,lthresh=150, strength=6).KNLMeansCL(d=1, a=2, h=6, device_type = "GPU", device_id = 0, channels="Y")
YToUV(ue_chroma, ve_chroma)
MergeLuma(ev)
ev_filtered=last

od
uo_chroma = UToY(od).blur(0,1.5).binomialblur(5).ttempsmooth(maxr=6,lthresh=150, strength=6).KNLMeansCL(d=1, a=2, h=6, device_type = "GPU", device_id = 0, channels="Y")
vo_chroma = VToY(od).blur(0,1.5).binomialblur(5).ttempsmooth(maxr=6,lthresh=150, strength=6).KNLMeansCL(d=1, a=2, h=6, device_type = "GPU", device_id = 0, channels="Y")
YToUV(uo_chroma, vo_chroma)
MergeLuma(od)
od_filtered=last

interleave(ev_filtered,od_filtered)
assumefieldbased().assumetff().weave()
Prefetch(6)
There was some other cleanup done in VirtualDub, mostly CCD, but that's it.

There are surely more ways to attack this, both better and worse. But again, it's clip based.

I'm sure somebody can get overly detailed, and complain about progressive, or 25fps, or slight aliasing in the jacket on many frames, or the little chroma still present. But remember that the goal of restoration is to make it better (and as close to perfect as is reasonably possible), not make it perfect (aka futile waste of time chasing unicorns). I've easily removed most problems here, and the video can be enjoyed without distraction -- and that's what matters. (While I hate aliasing artifacts, that jacket looks terrible even when interlaced, shimmering reflective lines. Ugh.)

If anybody can improve upon this, share how it was done.

BTW, Mercali offset the video by about 5-10 frames, so audio has to be adjusted.
On the before/after, I had to do this:
Code:
clip1=AVISource("F:\Trim.avi",false)
clip2=AVISource("F:\trimtest4-v2.avi").Trim(5,0)

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  #9  
03-29-2021, 01:44 PM
ofesad ofesad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The speed is single-digit fps, per script, and requires multiple scripts. (No, you cannot cram everything into a single script. It will crash. Not only that, but it's a mix of x86 and x64 scripts that are needed.)
Tested and confirmed the crash when running all scripts together.

I fail to see the "mix of x86/x64 scripts". Or you were thinking of some other function/script?.
I am using all 64bits and works wonders with your scripts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Then the Mercalli pass.
This clip was easy, so I used the "rock steady" setting. But most clips cannot use it, and using it becomes more art than science. There are Avisynth alternatives, but each is very dependent on content.
Could you please upload a screenshot of Mercalli settings?
I am testing it now but I dont see better results. Do you use it as a standalone app or with premiere as plugin?
The image goes all around the frame. Worse during scenes changes.
Probably I should trim scenes and stabilize each one and then join'em together...?

Meanwhile will be recapturing first 5 mins of some tapes with different methods:
a) Directly (vcr->capture card)
b) Passthru Sony DV (vcr->sony->mixer->capture card)
c) Series (vcr->vcr->mixer->capture card)

Will post results as I got'em.

-- merged --

Well, this is awkward...

Now the picture is perfectly stable as usual. Even connecting the vcr directly to the capture card or thru the mixer. Jitter is next to none.

Might have been a slightly loose svideo cable? Is the only change I made.
Will make further tests on it.

I am not wasting any time and re doing the captures as I type.

Ofesad.
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  #10  
03-29-2021, 04:07 PM
timtape timtape is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ofesad View Post
Well, this is awkward...

Now the picture is perfectly stable as usual. Even connecting the vcr directly to the capture card or thru the mixer. Jitter is next to none.

Might have been a slightly loose svideo cable? Is the only change I made.
Will make further tests on it...

.
. Yes try to induce the fault by for example wiggling cables and plugs while watching the result on the screen. Poor connections are a common problem especially on older gear. Sometimes plugs and sockets just need cleaning. Inspect them carefully.
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  #11  
03-29-2021, 06:59 PM
ofesad ofesad is offline
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Not a problem with the new captures. Super stable picture. 0 dropped or inserted frames.

The cable is a pretty strong posibility (or the connector).
The cables I got are new, but old stock. I need to get newer and better svideo cables... and maybe a new set of connectors for the Ati X800XL.... or another capture card.


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File Type: avi Trim2.avi (72.76 MB, 9 downloads)
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  #12  
03-30-2021, 09:09 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Maybe also that the tape was a bit loose/badly spooled on the tape or a bit waved at the top which was smoothed out through playing through it a few times?
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