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  #1  
05-16-2021, 11:39 AM
FinnTape79 FinnTape79 is offline
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Restoration on going: Wedding video 1995. Lot of color errors (white balance varies in the same scene, church yellow light, white light from window etc), dark brightness, bent straight lines and a travelling line from top to bottom, this happens from time to time. No TBC on this, not even Panasonic DMR-ES10... So the picture geometry could be better...

The color slide from tone to tone looks like a MPEG2 artefact "high compression ratio" stuff. Even these are from the HUFFYUV YUV422 phase of the progress. This gradient error seems to get "excited" because of sharpening functions?

Code:
# Rainbowing away
Cnr2(mode="oxx", scdthr=10.0, ln=35, lm=192, un=47, um=255, vn=47, vm=255, log=false, sceneChroma=false)

QTGMC( Preset="Faster", EdiMode="NEEDI3", EdiMaxD=16, TR1=1, TR0=2, TR2=3 )
# QTGMC (Preset="Slow") # CHECK 9.4.21

### Antialiasing + compensation for deinterlace
santiag(strh=2,strv=2) 

### Semi-common NR
TemporalDegrain2(degrainTR=2, postFFT=1,postSigma=0,postDither=0, grainLevel=0)  

### Sharpen first phase
aWarpSharp2(thresh=50, blur=3, type=0, depth=16, chroma=4) 

# Smooth a little
dfttest(sigma=5, tbsize=1)  

### Sharpen second phase
Sharpen(0.9)
Maybe the QTGMC does something to the color map as well and causes its own artefacts if parameters aren't right? On top of these i did some white balance correction with Shotcut. Also added some saturation with VirtualDub HSV Adjust filter and added brightness +6%. This brightness adjustment seem to lift these artefacts

See attached jpeg-image which pinpoints the artefacts i'm talking about. Also a video sample of my "improved" video. This is a hobby restoration. My good friend died and I found this video from his estate storage and wanted to give at least a better LCD / LED / QLED / OLED suitable viewing copy for them.

See uncompressed HUFFYUV original here so you can tweak it:
https://mega.nz/file/QeAxXADA#wny5qz...zcqz8sr-iFbDxE


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Wedding1995_poor_gradient.jpg (57.1 KB, 28 downloads)
Attached Files
File Type: avi Wedding_1995_sample_gradient_errors.avi (25.11 MB, 17 downloads)
File Type: mp4 WEDDING_small_compare_H264.mp4 (16.65 MB, 18 downloads)

Last edited by FinnTape79; 05-16-2021 at 12:07 PM.
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  #2  
05-16-2021, 12:33 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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What you call a "gradient" is posterization. And harsh. The VCR may have compressed the color palette. What was it? Cheap VCRs with "lots of features" do stuff like this. The recording camera could also be to blame, seen it before.

The mushy soft mess is also unusual, VHS isn't that blurry. So again, deck quality.

All of that image wiggle from lack of line TBC looks really terrible. This seemingly important tape needs a recapture. What you're doing in Avisynth is mostly putting lipstick on a pig right now.

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  #3  
05-16-2021, 01:22 PM
FinnTape79 FinnTape79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
What you call a "gradient" is posterization. And harsh. The VCR may have compressed the color palette. What was it? Cheap VCRs with "lots of features" do stuff like this. The recording camera could also be to blame, seen it before.

The mushy soft mess is also unusual, VHS isn't that blurry. So again, deck quality.

All of that image wiggle from lack of line TBC looks really terrible. This seemingly important tape needs a recapture. What you're doing in Avisynth is mostly putting lipstick on a pig right now.
Thanks. I'm not satisfied on that either - even this is just a free favor and not aiming do it pro (need to admit that this is a very interesting personal learning process).

I have a LG RC388 which is a combo DVD - VHS combo deck from 2010. It is very little used on the VHS side and has S-Video out. I have also a semi pro 1992 S-VHS Panasonic NV-FS90 but it needs a repair/cleanup and not necessary parts are available because it is exotic. Gives a very bad picture at the moment "lot of comet lines". It doesn't have a TBC but with DMR-ES10 it should beat that LG combo's light "plastic" mechanism - IF in clean working condition. I also have a normal working 1997 JVC HR-J638 which is only SCART / Composite out player and in the lower midrange. Need to test and verify between. Maybe routing that SCART thing composite "JVC B.E.S.T stuff off" -> DMR-ES10 -> S-Video -> Capture card route.

I first try to make a LG RC388 -> PANASONIC DMR-ES10 -> Capture card recapture. Also a cleanup for the VCR is on the "to do" list. That wiggle and "need TBC" stuff wasn't so obvious while watching raw "dancing dots dark interlaced mess". More I add those cleanup type effects, more the wiggling and geometrical (lines are bent, twised) errors come obvious. It is very specific for this tape. Every tape seems to be own case. Got to get my DMR-ES10 back from my friend who did some cap checks for it...
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05-16-2021, 03:21 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Those LG dvd-recorder combos send every output through the internal digitizer before outputting, so the ES10 will not be able to do any further correction that the video decoder IC in it isn't capable of, I have a pretty similar one. The video chips in those don't compensate for horizontal wiggle nearly to the same degree that the panasonic can. Using the JVC might work better for that, unless you can fix the FS90, those hi-fi JVC decks are usually not too bad and share a bit with the SVHS equivialents.
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  #5  
05-16-2021, 03:33 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Line TBC has nothing to do with "pro". The ES10/15 is about $125, and is a home DVD recorder from 2005.

Most combo VHS/DVD units mess with the signal, and process the snot out of it internally. So you're not getting analog output on the VHS, you're getting digitized>undigitized junk signals.

That FS90 will be better.
Any JVC S-VHS (with or without TBC) will be better yet.
Those output true analog, with no funny business.

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05-17-2021, 11:34 AM
FinnTape79 FinnTape79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Those LG dvd-recorder combos send every output through the internal digitizer before outputting, so the ES10 will not be able to do any further correction that the video decoder IC in it isn't capable of, I have a pretty similar one. The video chips in those don't compensate for horizontal wiggle nearly to the same degree that the panasonic can. Using the JVC might work better for that, unless you can fix the FS90, those hi-fi JVC decks are usually not too bad and share a bit with the SVHS equivialents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Line TBC has nothing to do with "pro". The ES10/15 is about $125, and is a home DVD recorder from 2005.

Most combo VHS/DVD units mess with the signal, and process the snot out of it internally. So you're not getting analog output on the VHS, you're getting digitized>undigitized junk signals.

That FS90 will be better.
Any JVC S-VHS (with or without TBC) will be better yet.
Those output true analog, with no funny business.
Hodgey and Lordsmurf: Your replies explain many unclear questions and fully agree with you. Earlier I wondered why DMR-ES10 is affecting so lightly to the picture errors. Maybe I was more hoping than actually judging what i saw (I imagined more improvements than there actually was seen). I fully agree with your "junk signal" explanation. This around 2009 - 2010 manufactured LG RC388 is too new and too digital in the bad way. There was no dropped frames even without DMR-ES10 in the signal chain which made me bit suspicious - why the signal is so clean/stable? LG RC388 signal has a lot image noise "dancing dots" so I thought it was unaffected/not digitized but this "MPEG2 high compression" posterization (without DMR-ES10 in the chain) tells another story. So i basicly get all the analog picture "dancing dots" noise with MPEG type color posterization in the same packet with that LG.

Did some research on my current captures with LG RC388 and your remarks are useful. I have mainly a 5 important VHS tapes so re capture is a easy task. Althought I have 20+ children's cartoons to backup so the DIY is the way to go - not taking my stuff to pro shop.

I make some tests with JVC HR-J638 composite out to DMR-ES10 composite in & DMR-ES10 out S-Video to capture card: S-Video on Pinnacle PCTV 100i (PCI bus, SAA7134HL, 2D comb filter) or S-Video on Avermedia H789 (PCI-E based Cx23888 3D comb filter). The comb filter is not used if using S-Video... That Avermedia H789 has only S-Video in so i don't how comb filter affects to it because S-video have sigals separated already. PCTV 100i has composite but i think it is better to use S-video only and avoid the use of that 2D comb filter.

Trying to get that FS90 checked soon but before that my best thing is to try with JVC HR-638 and my relative have one Panasonic NV-HV61 available in good condition but that model isn't prosumer or with S-Video. Checked some vintage photo gear shop's prices for S-VHS decks which are serviced but dunno on what degree: JVC HR-S7700: 495 eur, JVC HR-S5950: 295 eur and Philips VR1100: 495 eur.
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05-20-2021, 02:36 PM
FinnTape79 FinnTape79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinnTape79 View Post
Trying to get that---- NV-FS88 checked soon
Cleaning of heads + tape rail seems to be around 60 eur. But i dunno if that's to problem. Maybe the capacitors still work because there's some sort of picture.

See the attached problem video. You'll see how the picture is affected.

Same sample video (as attached) from youtube: https://youtu.be/lQ94xl5yuUQ


Attached Files
File Type: mp4 Panasonic_SVHS_NV_FS88_problem.mp4 (56.00 MB, 12 downloads)
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04-15-2022, 04:56 PM
FinnTape79 FinnTape79 is offline
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Hi,

Panasonic NV-FS90EG is now finally fixed. Head drum missed a piece... A new head drum was installed in the VCR, which was taken from the used device (the power supply of that device was broken). It was a kind of organ donation.

I did first tests with DMR-ES10 along with NV-FS90EG. That Panasonic model doesn't have any internal TBC. (DMR-ES10 makes some corrections to the picture). Source video was old 1987 funeral tape which had a poor geometry and very poor separation of details. This cassette is one of the worst cassettes I am transferring. Previous capture attempt lost lot of details. I attached a static picture as a preview. There's more edge detail with NV-FS90EG although the colors are kind of bland. Needs more saturation or something. I'll get you moving picture after I recapture some material. Some extra horizontal "thin black lines" can be seen compared to previous JVC machine's composite capture. I'm not sure if the used head drum is already little bit worn.

See the attached sample preview (clip from pause picture from unprocessed capture HUFFYUV and FFV1). NV-FS90EG Noise filter was off during the capture. VirtualDub filters were off. There's more to come.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Capture_Comparison.jpg (58.8 KB, 16 downloads)
File Type: jpg Capture_Comparison2.jpg (57.7 KB, 10 downloads)

Last edited by FinnTape79; 04-15-2022 at 05:07 PM.
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  #9  
04-16-2022, 07:03 AM
FinnTape79 FinnTape79 is offline
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Hello,
It seems that the fixing didn't went 100% right. This machine generates a frequent black lines which orientation is horizontal.

They are much thinner than typical comet artefacts. PSU makin slight clitches?? I have another NV-FS90 which I will check as well. There is a slight change that the head drum change wasn't completely successful.
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04-16-2022, 07:33 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Do you have an example image of what it looks like?

My Video gear overview/test/repair/stuff yt channel http://youtu.be/cEyfegqQ9TU
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04-16-2022, 12:52 PM
FinnTape79 FinnTape79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Do you have an example image of what it looks like?
Here is a example of the problem. It is slowed down to visualize those horizontal lines. It is raw capture. No other post processing than the slowmo and x264 encoding from HuffYUV. Is it a upcoming power supply failure or what?


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File Type: mp4 Black_Horizontal_lines_example_no_audio.mp4 (9.85 MB, 8 downloads)
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04-16-2022, 03:06 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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I don't know what the root cause is, whether it's just the resistance value drifting over time or something else. It should be sortable by adjusting VR3301 (y balance) on the HQ pack PCB though.

I haven't tinkered with this exact model, but the AG5700 which I do have uses the same video ics, and the equivalent trimpot on that does the right adjustment so I imagine it's the same here. I know it's a noted issue on the newer NV-HS1000 as both me and at least 1 other person on the forums here had it on that one.

Ideally you would use an oscilloscope as noted in the service manual (page 16, page 8 for approximate location on board), however it's doable by eye if you adjust it while watching the output from a tape with a lot of dropouts. You want to turn it very slightly (not sure which direction) to make the lines disappear. If it's off the lines with dropouts will either be to dark (as now) or too bright, so have to find the middle point where they're just right. Need to be very careful though, and don't mess with the other trimpots. I don't know how easy to adjust while plugged in though - I think the main board on these flips up unlike the later ones. Or, maybe the service person can handle it if you don't want to risk it yourself.

I don't think the issue is caused by power supply issues, at least I haven't seen it being affected by replacing capacitors in the power supply in any of the panasonics from the era I've messed with. Power supply problems can cause noise and other issues though.

Also of the capacitors on video boards, especially on the 1H CCD Delay pack (inside a metal shielding on one of the video boards), and on IC303 can also go bad over time (the IC303 ones are only used for SVHS playback so may not impact normal playback) - see page 67/68 here for some old service notes for the model. (I have no idea who made this doc, I think the original data may be from UK Television magazine as it refers to it but not sure, it's quite useful for repairs on PAL decks though.)

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04-16-2022, 03:27 PM
FinnTape79 FinnTape79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
I don't know what the root cause is, whether it's just the resistance value drifting over time or something else. It should be sortable by adjusting VR3301 (y balance) on the HQ pack PCB though.

I haven't tinkered with this exact model, but the AG5700 which I do have uses the same video ics, and the equivalent trimpot on that does the right adjustment so I imagine it's the same here. I know it's a noted issue on the newer NV-HS1000 as both me and at least 1 other person on the forums here had it on that one.

Ideally you would use an oscilloscope as noted in the service manual (page 16, page 8 for approximate location on board), however it's doable by eye if you adjust it while watching the output from a tape with a lot of dropouts. You want to turn it very slightly (not sure which direction) to make the lines disappear. If it's off the lines with dropouts will either be to dark (as now) or too bright, so have to find the middle point where they're just right. Need to be very careful though, and don't mess with the other trimpots. I don't know how easy to adjust while plugged in though - I think the main board on these flips up unlike the later ones. Or, maybe the service person can handle it if you don't want to risk it yourself.
So it seems that the replaced head drum is not adjusted properly? I had two tapes which didn't do that black horizontal line - at least so often. So the frequency of the error varies between tapes. I must ask from the repair shop and give the most problematic tape as a adjustment aid and refer to your link. I dunno if he adjusted that with a CRT monitor and eyes...

In a week or two I get another Panasonic NV-FS90EG for a test. That device should be with a factory head drum but used in semi pro work in the early 90's till early 00's.
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04-16-2022, 03:56 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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So basically, when the signal on tape is missing or too weak (due to wear, damage etc, usually called a dropout) the circuitry in the VCR will replace the output signal with the video signal from 1 line back. This masks the missing video somewhat making these dropouts much less noticeable. What the adjustment I mentioned does is to adjust the brightness of that delayed signal (which is also used for noise reduction.) If the brightness of that signal does not match the normal output the spots where the drop-out compensation/masking kicks in will loook too dark or bright. I think later vcrs from the late 90s did this automatically in some way as they lack any adjustment for this.

It's not something that is directly related to the head drum, it something that happens much later during encoding, so I don't see how changing the drum would cause it to change. There are other things that can be affected and need adjustment (tape path alignment and frequency response adjustment) when changing the video drum but not seeing any evidence of that being off.

A worn tape, or tape with damage will have more dropouts so it this issue will be more noticeable on those. Maybe it wasn't as noticeable when the drum had issues if there was a lot of other noise, and maybe it's less noticeable on a CRT than on a sharp digital capture, or maybe the test tape the serviceman used just didn't have many dropouts. Hard to say for sure, suspect he didn't touch it, may very well have been present before the drum was changed.

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04-17-2022, 04:17 PM
FinnTape79 FinnTape79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
A worn tape, or tape with damage will have more dropouts so it this issue will be more noticeable on those. Maybe it wasn't as noticeable when the drum had issues if there was a lot of other noise, and maybe it's less noticeable on a CRT than on a sharp digital capture, or maybe the test tape the serviceman used just didn't have many dropouts. Hard to say for sure, suspect he didn't touch it, may very well have been present before the drum was changed.
The signal path has Panasonic DMR-ES10 as a last device before capture card and it seems solid. So the dropouts are caused by Panasonic S-VHS NV-FS90.

I will put here some capture examples for evaluation in following days (how well my Pan NV-FS90 + DMR-ES10 combo works for example in this Wedding video subject). It may be that I'll have to recapture them after I get the second NV-FS90 unit from the repair guy - and if it works with less black line generation. I can't remember any Avisynth function to correct that black line kind of issue. If there's a black line, there's no information available on that spot, only thin black bar. What would be the replaced information? A same size piece from the next frame or from the previous? If camera is panning to some direction from frame to frame, the replaced part of the picture may be incorrect but in the case of static shot the piece could be taken from previous or next frame. Just thinking.

Still today I have received the following results/made the following observations:
- NV-FS90 S-Video output gives out such a signal that DMR-ES10 can post process it
- NV-FS90 S-Video picture has more detail compared to modern LG RC389 (around 2008) picture
- NV-FS90 output has a clear picture "edge detail" the black/white base of the picture if you know what I mean
- Post processing in the Avisynth is more effective with real raw signal
- NV-FS90 noise reduction has three options: Off, Edit and On. NOT SURE should it be on or off.
- From sharpest to softest the order is: NV-FS90's sharpest, JVC HR-J638E 2nd sharpest with composite and LG RC389 is poorest and digitally manipulated. I thank this forum to clarify and open my eyes to this fact. Digital "junk" LG.

Still my personal, 1997 bought JVC HR-J638E gives the best picture if counting black lines or comets (it even has correction called B.E.S.T :-) )... I used that device only couple of years before moving mainly to DVD. Too bad it is only composite. I anyway make some comparison with that device as well. Had some discussion on JVC 5000 S-VHS but it doesn't have TBC and it is from year 1988.

Last edited by FinnTape79; 04-17-2022 at 04:35 PM.
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04-17-2022, 05:11 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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In case my previous post was a bit too confusing: The "black lines" should be fixable by adjusting a component inside the vcr, though it can be a bit tricky to get to, maybe easier for the repairman to do.

I've done that to fix the same symptom in a slightly newer Panasonic as shown in this post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FinnTape79 View Post
What would be the replaced information? A same size piece from the next frame or from the previous?
VCRs will replace it with video from the previous line as that's what was most easily done with simple analog circuits. They weren't sophisticated enough to do anything more complex. (Other than a few very fancy broadcast models). If you look closely at the capture from the JVC or LG on a frame that gives a black line on the Panasonic, you may be able to see that the video at that spot is simply a copy of the line above it.

The JVC HR-S5000 is rather old (one of the earliest SVHS decks) so would be careful with that unless you know it's 100% serviced and such, and it may not be any improvement over the other decks due to how old it is.

There are avisynth plugins that can try to detect stuff like this and mask it but I've never found them to work all that well, either they miss the dropouts, or they think way to much other stuff is one. Best to fix the problem at the source.
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04-19-2022, 02:09 PM
FinnTape79 FinnTape79 is offline
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Waiting to get another Panasonic NV-FS90 from the reipair guy. It seems it is working although fast forward with a picture keeps a noise. Did a test with JVC HR-J638E basic VHS. I recorded some music videos from Viva, Onyx etc sat channels around 1996 - 1998. This one was recorded on the same device as was played (HR-J638E). Connection full SCART -> DMR-ES10 Scart in and output via S-Video to Avermedia capture card. Following Avisynth script:
----
SetMemoryMax(512) # multithreaded Avisynth only - before source loaded p1

AviSource("D:\VHS_RAW\BASF_PHG_240_VHS_Mus2_JVC_63 8_DMR_ES10_Avermedia_HuffYUV.avi", fourCC="HFYU")

ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)

ConvertToYV12

AssumeTFF()

QTGMC (Preset="Faster")

TemporalDegrain2(degrainTR=2,postFFT=0) # Korkealuokkainen kohinanvaimennin suht staattisiin kohtauksiin joissa ei kovaa liiketta, default asetukset 3,4,16

MiniDeen(radius=1, thrY=10, thrUV=12, Y=3, U=3, V=3)

dfttest(sigma=2, tbsize=5)

Sharpen(0.4)

ColorYUV(cont_u=8, cont_v=10)

ConvertToYUY2
-----

https://mega.nz/file/VDxXlBYa#Kl91iT...Ay2eqhSElJJoy0

The detail is surprisingly even if you compare to Youtube video... Seems that the Youtube release from 1996 master is poor also... Heavy youtube compression. Hopefully this example does not violate any copyright clause. Moderator can freely delete this link if there's an issue.
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04-20-2022, 09:55 AM
FinnTape79 FinnTape79 is offline
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I implement this side project: "selected music videos (VHS) from sat channels to digital format (PLEX library)". 1st phase is done: JVC HR-J638 Scart Out (same as Composite) - Scart In Panasonic DMR-ES10 and SVideo in to Avermedia capture card. In the 2nd phase I will make this Panasonic NV-FS90 SVideo to Panasonic DMR-ES10 and SVideo to Avermedia Capture card. It is intresting to see the quality difference. These samples are made with normal VHS video and connected via Scart to Panasonic DMR-ES10 and via S-Video to capture card. See previous post for used Avisynth restoration functions.

Ok, here is a 1st phase sample of this Republica's late 90's VHS Video, taken from Viva satellite broadcast (D2-MAC). This video have quickly changing strobe lights and fast-changing scenes. It seems that in the moment of changes the noise comes visible and after it disappears. On static areas I think the TemporalDegrain2 do its job and in fast changing areas MiniDeen will degrain as well. If MiniDeen radius is raised, detail will start to disappear. I have verified this 1:1 with Youtube and detail seems to be there - at least bad/good in the same way as the compressed Youtube version Closeups look sharp but overall picture show's softness which may be because of VHS native low resolution. I attaced also a small raw HuffYUV clip for verification.

See samples: RAW HUFFYUV and x264 modified with avisynth (script in the previous post)

Next phase is to take signal from semi pro Panasonic NV-FS90 and make all connections with S-Video (NV-FS90EG, DMR-ES10, Avermedia)

NOTE: Admin can delete the megadrive link included in the previous post (copyright reason).


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04-20-2022, 11:29 AM
traal traal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinnTape79 View Post
I did first tests with DMR-ES10 along with NV-FS90EG... (DMR-ES10 makes some corrections to the picture). Source video was old 1987 funeral tape which had a poor geometry and very poor separation of details. This cassette is one of the worst cassettes I am transferring.
That reminds me of this tape that had a similar problem. I found a different copy of the same tape that was perfect. I didn't try adding a DMR-ES10 into the capture chain with the bad tape. I will try that with another tape that has the same problem. Thanks for the idea!
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04-23-2022, 04:57 AM
FinnTape79 FinnTape79 is offline
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Hi,

this "excursion" is interesting and some things aren't what I would guess. In this sample there's 2005 capture version with a signal chain:

1. Upper part of the picture: 2005 Normal VHS JVC HR-J638E outputting composite to Pinnacle PCTV100 PCI card Composite in
2. Lower part of the picture: 2022 Normal VHC JVC HR-J638E ouputting Full SCART (seems to be composite, dunno if its RBG) to DMR-ES10 which outputs S-Video in to Avermedia PCI-Express capture card.

[edit]Both of the samples have some red colour overblow. If you look at the "2" logo, you'll see that the color is not lined properly. It did same with the S-Video only signal chain. It is some kind of ghosting thing. Also the woman's face seems a little over sharpened in the 2. sample...

I took a 3rd capture by using a chain S-VHS Panasonic HV NFS-90EG outputting S-Video to DMR-ES10 which outputs S-Video to Avermedia PCI-Express card. Suprisingly the normal VHS picture beats the S-VHS. It seems that it would be BEST TO play on the same recorder where the recording was originally made. I was lucky to have the same 1997 purchased deck. And it is in good condition because DVD took over in the start of 00's. So you don't necessary need a S-VHS / S-Video to succeed? Or is the DMR-ES10 which manipulates it the same way in any case?

The moving picture works fine. I attach a sample if needed. This is just a parallel project with Wedding video restoration. I get the fixed NV-FS90EG Panasonic next week. Hopefully I get a final with this DMR-ES10 combo... I have had a offer on Datavideo 800 video mixer with a full frame TBC... 1000 eur or around $1200.00...


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