JVC SR-VS30U with Panasonic ES10: Is is necessary?

[zxck]

I recently picked up a JVC SR-VS30U (has both S-VHS deck and MiniDV deck built in) and it has TBC capability. I also have a Pano DMR-ES10. My question is, is there any benefit to putting the ES10 inline with the JVC output, or is the signal already sufficiently stabilized?

Here's what the JVC manual has to say:
"DIGITAL TBC/NR
ON
OFF
Your VCR is equipped with the Digital TBC (Time Base Corrector) that removes jitter from fluctuating video signals to deliver a stable picture even with old tapes and rental cassettes.
The on/off of Digital 3-DNR (Noise Reduction) which cuts noise and enables clear picture reproduction is also linked to this function.
We recommend that you set “DIGITAL TBC/NR” to “ON” when ...
... playing back a tape recorded on a camcorder.
... playing back a tape repeatedly used.
... using this VCR as the source player for editing.
NOTES:
● If you play back a tape recorded under poor TV reception condition, the picture may become more stable with Digital TBC/NR set to off.
● When “DIGITAL TBC/NR” is set to “ON”, if you play back a tape where certain types of signals are recorded (using a PC or some character generators), the playback picture may be distorted. If this is the case, set “DIGITAL TBC/NR” to “OFF”."

Thanks!

[lordsmurf]

VS30 can be a good deck, if proper condition. Never use DV, eats tapes, just use S-VHS side.

Line TBC is dibs situation.
- If JVC TBC on, ES10 does nothing. Aside from line TBC, ES10 just has non-TBC frame sync, nothing special, won't necessarily help with frame timing issues, thus still allow audio skew/desyn, etc.
- If JVC TBC off, then ES10 can correct.

So no.

But you do still need frame TBC after the line TBC. It's not either/of, but both are needed. While both are TBCs, functions are fully different. Line TBC fixes image (intraframe), frame TBC fixes signal (interframe).

[zxck]

Thanks for the info @lordsmurf. Just to be sure I understand correctly:

• Using the JVC TBC is an either/or with the ES10.
  JVC TBC On and no ES10, or
  JVC TBC Off and use the ES10.

• Regardless of which I use, the JVC and ES10 only provide line TBC, and I will need a frame TBC device to fix the signal.

What frame TBC devices do you typically recommend?

Thank you!

[hodgey]

The ES10 will help give the capture card something stable to capture regardless if the VCR TBC is on or off. It outputs a stable 29.97 fps video signal with the non-visible parts re-created and any trouble it had decoding "burned in" into that signal. A dedicated frame tbc like the avt/datavideo may or may not handle the vcr output better with less issues but would test with the stuff first to see if it works well enough before spending a bunch of money on one.

The line tbc part of it will only do anything if the VCR TBC is not in use since the non-visible part of the image that's used for determining the line timing will already have been replaced by the VCR TBC.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zxck

Thanks for the info @lordsmurf. Just to be sure I understand correctly:

• Using the JVC TBC is an either/or with the ES10.
  JVC TBC On and no ES10, or
  JVC TBC Off and use the ES10.

• Regardless of which I use, the JVC and ES10 only provide line TBC, and I will need a frame TBC device to fix the signal.

What frame TBC devices do you typically recommend?

Thank you!

Correct.

JVC on + ES10 on = JVC does something, ES10 does nothing (line)
JVC on + ES10 off = JVC does
JVC off + ES10 on = ES10 does

DataVideo/Cypress type TBCs are what you want for consumer analog sources like VHS. But don't be a goober, run to eBay, you won't find good units there. Almost all DataVideo units now sold need work, cap fail is upon us. Buy those refurb'd, not just "used" (nor even "tested" and "working" from bad eBay sellers).

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

The ES10 will help give the capture card something stable to capture regardless if the VCR TBC is on or off. It outputs a stable 29.97 fps video signal with the non-visible parts re-created and any trouble it had decoding "burned in" into that signal. A dedicated frame tbc like the avt/datavideo may or may not handle the vcr output better with less issues but would test with the stuff first to see if it works well enough before spending a bunch of money on one.

The line tbc part of it will only do anything if the VCR TBC is not in use since the non-visible part of the image that's used for determining the line timing will already have been replaced by the VCR TBC.

ES10 has a non-TBC frame sync, behind a strong+crippled line TBC. It's crippled due to allowing anti-copy, which is an artificial video error, and natural/legit errors can easily seem the same to the detections. Errors are allowed to pass, and it screws with the capture card, as would a natural error.

So stable output is not a guarantee, aka not a TBC, not a TBC replacement, just a DVD recorder with passthrough. Also a device that generates errors, the transparency to the source is not great. Passable, but not great. Best reserved for tapes where net gains = improved image. Not all will have that net gain, and in fact most will not, if using quality VCR+line and frame TBC.

Most people do not view while capturing, and miss these issues until vastly later. So "it worked for me" is almost never reliable. This is why post-capture scrubbing is important. Even then, errors can pass, but far less likely. Furthermore, many falsely chalk these errors up to "that's just VHS", which is equally false.

I know you know most of this, but others rarely do. They just skim the TL;DR (Cliff's Notes), and do not really comprehend what the device is and does.