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  #241  
01-18-2020, 05:31 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galacticboy2009 View Post
Mitsubishi is spelled incorrectly at first, then correctly the second time.

Yes I made an account just to leave this typo correction.
Thank you for all you do, I've used this site as a resource for years, just never made an account until now.
Well... what you don't learn here is to speak and spell perfect English, important thing is that the message comes across, i live in the Netherlands and i doo try to do my best, most of the time people understand what i'm trying to say, most of the time techinical terms are best understand in the English language, all over the world, when you try to translate them, things get out of hand, and look more like a comedy.
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  #242  
01-23-2020, 04:51 AM
dima dima is offline
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Which of these VCRs* do you consider the best to capturing VHS tapes(PAL) ? Which one would you choose for this job ?

*Here is the VCRs list:

- Philips VR1200,
- JVC HR-S6600,
- JVC HR-S6611,
- JVC HR-S6700,
- JVC HR-S6953,
- JVC HR-S6960,
- JVC HR-S7500,
- JVC HR-S7711,
- JVC HR-S7960,
- JVC HR-S8700,
- Panasonic NV-FS88,
- Panasonic NV-FS100,
- Panasonic NV-HV61,
- Panasonic NV-HS850,
- Panasonic NV-HS880,
- Panasonic NV-HS950.

[Is anyone able to give approximate years of production of these VCRs ?]
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  #243  
01-23-2020, 12:21 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Philips VR1200 (2001 JVC clone, no TBC)
- JVC HR-S6600 (1999)
- JVC HR-S6611 (1999)
- JVC HR-S6700 (2000)
- JVC HR-S6953 (2002)
- JVC HR-S6960 (2003)
- JVC HR-S7500 (1998)
- JVC HR-S7711 (2000)
- JVC HR-S7960 (2003)
- JVC HR-S8700 (2001)
- Panasonic NV-FS88 (1992 close the same as the legendary Panasonic NV-FS200 but without TBC)
- Panasonic NV-FS100 (1989)
- Panasonic NV-HV61 (2004 Hifi VHS-Recorder)
- Panasonic NV-HS850 (1999)
- Panasonic NV-HS880 (2002)
- Panasonic NV-HS950 (1997)

My favorites would be:

Panasonic FS-88 (if you use a dvd-recorder as tbc replacement)
Panasonic NV-HS950
JVC HR-S8700
JVC HR-S7960 (maybe this one could clipping the luma if it is out of range during playback like my HR-S8960 do)
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  #244  
01-23-2020, 01:59 PM
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My choices, from that list, in preference order:

1. JVC HR-S7960
2. JVC HR-S7711
2. JVC HR-S8700
3. Panasonic NV-HS950

However, the decision is not that easy!

Condition is most important, and price may need to be taken into consideration.

For example, the 7965EK is my favorite PAL deck. But if it looks abused, and/or cost an insane amount ($1k), I'd balk, and look at the other models available.

Never let presence/lack of a remote be a deciding factor, those are simple to acquire for under $20 USD.

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  #245  
01-24-2020, 03:39 AM
dima dima is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
JVC HR-S7960 (maybe this one could clipping the luma if it is out of range during playback like my HR-S8960 do)
Thank you so much for your post and information. Among others for those regarding the year of production of a given VCR model. Panasonic NV-HS1000 was produced in what years ? Something reminds me that from around 1994 to 1997 ? Yes ?

Have you ever heard anyone report that the JVC HR-S7960 was cutting the luma? Is this just your guess based on the fact that maybe your model JVC HR-S8960 is so close to JVC HR-S7960 ?

How is this pruning of the luma manifested ? Are the dark and light moments in the recorded image inadequately bright(in dark images) or not bright enough(in bright images) ? A big problem for the very quality of the image reproduced by a VCR, which trims the luma in this way, probably is not(unless, very large, trimming the lumas is not) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Condition is most important, and price may need to be taken into consideration.
Thank you very much for your helpful post in response to mine.

So how check the status of the sold VCR online ? What to ask the seller ?

Picture of the interior and orientation on its condition inside with particular emphasis on heads, their wear and ask about the history of a given VCR(to have a picture, knowledge, guess about what he actually looks like and what was his fate...) ?

Because the external appearance of the VCR is not critical(or almost none) here, is it rather clear ? Yes ?
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  #246  
01-31-2020, 04:47 PM
bakerie bakerie is offline
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Hi!

I really appreciate the advice in this thread, but I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle.

I just want to do a quick job on some VHS I have in the attic for background video. I've put together an automated setup that I think will do the digital conversion side of the job (I'll have to make sure the digital end of things is good, can't stand macroblocks).

However, I'm not going to spend €200-300 on a VHS player for this little project. My issue is that I've no idea what's good in the budget range.

Is there a guide to picking a <$50 player of decent quality? I suppose something to tell me if the amount of heads matters for playback, which players generally offer the best quality etc...

I suppose if someone like lordsmurf could just answer "if you HAD to pick a VHS off EU eBay for < €50 what would you look for", I'd have my answer.

Any advice appreciated, and thanks for your time, I hope I'm not hijacking this thread!
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  #247  
01-31-2020, 05:31 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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to keep it simple, any vcr and a dvd recorder will do, and you can transfer your VHS pile to DVD discs.
or an all in one recorder combo will do, as long there's no pc in the chain, all will be fine.
Otherwise a DV "box" and a pc will do, the DV box needs a Firewire connection on your pc, so an interface card
will do the job. (a handycam with DV output and video input connections will do also)
Mentioning LordSmurf and something "simple" in one line, is asking for troubles, LordSmurf is going for all the way, or not at all.
Most of the time there isn't a ready made answer for any random setup, it comes down to just try/experiment with what you got, or just have luck.
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  #248  
01-31-2020, 05:34 PM
bakerie bakerie is offline
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Quote:
Mentioning LordSmurf and something "simple" in one line, is asking for troubles, LordSmurf is going for all the way, or not at all.
Sorry!

I suppose what I'm looking for is a review of VHS systems from the 00s to give me an idea of who had the best brand, what tech was rubbish, what tech was decent etc?

As I said previously, I've no idea if more heads gives a better picture or not (for example)...

Last edited by bakerie; 01-31-2020 at 06:02 PM.
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  #249  
01-31-2020, 05:50 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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There are already lists on this site, or on other websites, so there's no need for asking, you should do some research yourself,
No! See my next post. -LS


just to get a better "picture" what VHS to digital capture means, most equipment is old, and you need to know more to make the right choice, in general JVC and Panasonic stand out in better VCR equipment, but is no guarantee, also most USB capture dongles are crap, like Easycap.... and other new capture devices you will not find, because they're not made anymore, and if..... these are most cheap crapture devices, not worth the money
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  #250  
01-31-2020, 11:17 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dima View Post
Have you ever heard anyone report that the JVC HR-S7960 was cutting the luma? Is this just your guess based on the fact that maybe your model JVC HR-S8960 is so close to JVC HR-S7960 ?
This is news to me, for any JVC PAL model in latter series decks.

Quote:
So how check the status of the sold VCR online ? What to ask the seller ?
The bigger problem is if the seller lies. With an unknown/random person selling decks, always get a description of exactly what tests were performed, what tape was used to do the tests (retail tape = useless test), and what viewing device was used (tiny portable TV = useless). See if any tracking errors are seen, and try to ask for sample clips or images from the deck.

Quote:
Picture of the interior and orientation on its condition inside
From an unknown/random nobody seller, always a good idea, if the person will cooperate. Note that most will not, which is why most sellers should not be purchased from.

Quote:
with particular emphasis on heads,
Most non-video folks (ie most sellers) wouldn't even know what the head is, where it is. It's staring them right in the face, a giant round thing. At best, some may guess that's it, others may Google to even understand your question.

Quote:
their wear and ask about the history of a given VCR
It depends on venue. Most eBay sellers are just recycled, and have no idea. Some never even open decks, and it could (literally) have a dead mouse inside. Seriously, I'm not joking, this has happened to somebody here (as told in PM, I don't think he ever posted about it). The worst I've ever found is a dead scorpion. And so many cobwebs, complete with dad spiders, that Morticia Addams would smile. Oh, and both of those were "tested" of course, even those it was obvious that neither actually were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerie View Post
Hi!
I really appreciate the advice in this thread, but I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle.
I just want to do a quick job
Speed has nothing to do with it. If anything, using not-suggested equipment will result in a longer project. You will have issues. Good equipment is not just about visual quality, but functionality and smooth operation of the capture task.

Quote:
on some VHS I have in the attic for background video.
Ugh. Odds are your tapes will have massive issues. Attics are not proper storage, as the tapes are subjected to temperature extremes and excess moisture. The effect is oxide shedding, mold, and other physical issues. You need to carefully examine and test the tapes before committing to capture. Special care may be needed, otherwise the tape could be destroyed before capturing.

Quote:
I've put together an automated setup that I think will do the digital conversion side of the job (I'll have to make sure the digital end of things is good,
What, precisely, is being used?

Quote:
can't stand macroblocks).
Macroblocks is from MPEG, H.264 is mushy blur, while lossless retains all detail and noise (which can be addressed in a post-capture software workflow).

Quote:
However, I'm not going to spend €200-300 on a VHS player for this little project.
The VCR is easily the most important part of a capture workflow. You can try to fudge TBC, or even pray it's not needed. You can even cram the video through a quality-reducing capture cards like EZcap or a DV box. But when the VCR doesn't even properly extract/read the tape data back properly, or well, all hope is lost to ever have a decent conversion. So bad that it can be a waste of time.

However, if you intended to stubbornly plod ahead anyway, I can at least steer you towards the "better" (less crappy) VHS decks...

Quote:
My issue is that I've no idea what's good in the budget range.
Is there a guide to picking a <$50 player of decent quality?
There is no guide, because it would be a half page of warnings of why NOT to use anything "suggested" (very, very reluctantly suggested). And the list is very short anyway. Perhaps I can include the decks in the above suggested lists in the first post, in the 3rd Class decks (as per the new list currently being worked on).

Quote:
I suppose something to tell me if the amount of heads matters for playback, which players generally offer the best quality etc...
Yes and no.
- 2-head are almost always terrible. Almost.
- 4-head decks are generally best, but many terrible 4-head decks exist.
- 6-head is marketing, actually just 4+2 (video+audio)

A past discussion on the forum is here: 2-head VCR vs. 4-head/6-head VCR?

Quote:
I suppose if someone like lordsmurf could just answer "if you HAD to pick a VHS off EU eBay for < €50 what would you look for", I'd have my answer.
Any advice appreciated, and thanks for your time, I hope I'm not hijacking this thread!
Ideally, locate the low-end JVC S-VHS decks, like HR-S3600, 3800, 4600, 4800, 2901, 5902, etc. Prices on those can vary. eBay is not your friend for deals. The next choice are Sharp VCRs from the late 90s and early 00s. The worst decks are Funai from combo players/recorders in the 2000s/10s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
to keep it simple, any vcr and a dvd recorder will do, and you can transfer your VHS pile to DVD discs.
Nonsense. VHS is contained chaos, and was not designed/engineered with clean output. The signal is not friendly to capturing (including DVD recorders), as the digital acquisition devices expect/need clean signals. Therefore the signal must be processed and purified. I didn't make this thread just for funsies, but because this is what is needed for the task. Sometimes quality vs. not, sometimes period (capture will abort, massive loss of sync, etc).

Quote:
or an all in one recorder combo will do, as long there's no pc in the chain, all will be fine.
Huh?

Quote:
Otherwise a DV "box" and a pc will do, the DV box needs a Firewire connection on your pc, so an interface card will do the job. (a handycam with DV output and video input connections will do also)
But only if quality VCR/TBC exists prior to the capture card. And even when it does, it does so at reduced quality. For PAL, modest reduction. For NTSC, noticeable major reduction.

Quote:
Mentioning LordSmurf and something "simple" in one line, is asking for troubles, LordSmurf is going for all the way, or not at all.
Nonsense. I'm not a video purist. I simply recognize what will happen when corners are cut. I won't lie to myself, or to others, with silly statements like "good enough" or "bang for the buck" (both of which are apologisms/excuses for buying/using crap). For this exact topic, I still retain an Orion, Magnavox, several Sharp (and Montgomery Ward Admiral rebadges), and quite a few low-end JVCs. And I've discussed the "best" low-end VCRs online since the mid 90s. However I realize the weaknesses of these decks, and retain them mostly for very special use cases.

Quote:
Most of the time there isn't a ready made answer for any random setup,
It fully depends on the devices in the setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerie View Post
Sorry!
I suppose what I'm looking for is a review
Answered that above. If any more questions, just ask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
There are already lists on this site, or on other websites, so there's no need for asking,
No.

That goes against the fundamental mission of this site. Literally for users/visitors/readers/member to ask questions -- even if frequent, we'll answer them again, ie FAQ, as in The Digital FAQ, where "digital" is for all things media (video especially, but also photo, and publishing aka web hosting/dev/design).

Quote:
in general JVC and Panasonic stand out in better VCR equipment,
But only for S-VHS decks. Both companies made terrible consumer VHS decks, easily bested by many other machines.

Quote:
but is no guarantee,
Yes, condition matters more than brand/model. You need both a better model, and in good condition. This is much harder to do with consumer decks, as those are the machines that kids stuffed Lego and peanut butter sandwiches in. Many were in smoker homes, which destroys decks. At least the better pro equipment had a more clean use/storage history.

Quote:
also most USB capture dongles are crap, like Easycap....
..... these are most cheap crapture devices, not worth the money
Yes, avoid cheap capture sticks, including the junk rebadges from companies like Roxio, Honestech, etc.

Quote:
and other new capture devices you will not find, because they're not made anymore,
Being currently manufactured does not matter. This is a legacy task requiring legacy equipment. The gear exists on secondary markets. Some is quite plentiful. Forum members, including myself, routinely have some extra gear in the Marketplace sub-forum of this site. Until I sound an alarm bell, the gear isn't completely unavailable (though maybe not to the liking of cheapskates that expect Chinese goods pricing, however this isn't cheap crap we're selling).

... anyway, capturing all starts with the VCR. My suggestion = don't skimp here, you'll be sorry!

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  #251  
02-01-2020, 02:05 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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On european ebay (particular german ebay) you can find good svhs-vcr if you watch the market. Stay away from auctions without remote and operations manual and read the description from the seller and have a closer look to the pictures. If he wrote it is perfect for digitization of video tapes you should although stay away. That's how I have bought some of my players.
The most recommendet players on european market are the Panasonic FS-200 (Blaupunkt 950), JVC HR-9600, Panasonic HS-1000 (Blaupunkt 965/966) and these means that this recorders are expensive and not always in good conditions. (I'm sure you won't get a vcr from german market with scorpion or poisonous spiders).
Another point you should think about are the shipping charges and custom charges. If you lives outside of europe you had to pay about 50-100 euro charges which depends from the country you come from.

But I will remember the vcr is only the first part in your capture chain. You will need some kind of a tbc (external tbc or dvd recorder as passthrough) and a capture card.

Specific recommendations could someone give if we know what tbc and capture card you'll use.

Here is for example a svhs recorder from ebay I would watched for (Panasonic FS-88 from 1992, close the same unit as the Panasonic FS-200 but without the tbc):
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Panasonic-S-...MAAOSwaU5eDhmJ

or if you'll like to gamble a little bit (JVC HR-S 7711 from 2000 with tbc):
https://www.ebay.de/itm/JVC-SUPER-VH...wAAOSwEcReMwbD

If you will use an Panasonic ES10 dvd recorder as tbc or your capture card has some tbc functionality a svhs vcr with tbc wouldn't be necessary.

If you have commercial tapes (macrovision) in most cases you'll need an external tbc (Datavideo, AVT, Electronic-Design...). But some captures cards ignore the macrovision signal.

If you'll use a ATI capture card an external tbc is necessary (macrovision, false macrovision).
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  #252  
02-01-2020, 09:00 AM
bakerie bakerie is offline
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Thanks to all for the detailed replies!!

Quote:
Ugh. Odds are your tapes will have massive issues. Attics are not proper storage, as the tapes are subjected to temperature extremes and excess moisture.
I'm aware. This happened many years ago. Basically, "we don't use these tapes anymore and they're taking up space, but instead of throwing them out, lets put them in the attic, just in case".

Quote:
What, precisely, is being used?
I feel like I'm hijacking this thread now, so I'll start a separate topic detailing exactly what I'm planning to do.

Quote:
Macroblocks is from MPEG, H.264 is mushy blur
AHHHHH. So I bought a bunch of budget CCTV cameras a while ago to try and find a decent low priced one. The lower the price, the more "mushiness" the output had. I assumed this was just noise filtering, but it was probably a terrible H.264 encoder.

On some of your other points, I wrongly assumed that the use of SVHS decks was (apart from possible TBC) due to them having S-video outputs, which would provide a 'marginally' better signal (when the source is standard VHS) than composite. As I know these tapes mostly contain recordings from OTA noisey Analog TV, I wasn't too worried about this. However, I now understand the other reasons for choosing an S-VHS player.

Bogilein:

Thanks for the advice and links to German eBay, I might increase the player budget a bit. I was planning on keeping it, but I might get a more expensive model and just throw it back on eBay when I'm done.

I'm in Ireland, so no import fees within the EU
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  #253  
02-01-2020, 10:30 AM
bakerie bakerie is offline
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I actually wanted to edit my previous reply, but it won't let me.
Just a quick additional question.

Is there any "test" tapes or something I can buy to compare what I'm doing to what it's possible to achieve?
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  #254  
02-01-2020, 04:25 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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I guess there are special tapes, but they are expensive, you could download a .iso with test images on it, burn it on a dvd, play this, and record onto a VHS tape, or have a test image generator of some sort, the AVCD100 has a test image mode, (simple color bars only) which you could record directly onto a VHS tape.
But i guess you are "stuck" with the quality of the recordings you want to transfer.... you can color pick white and black values in your post work for color correcting.
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  #255  
02-06-2020, 02:29 PM
kingrs kingrs is offline
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HI Lordsmurf,
Your advice and forum are excellent.
I am converting SVHS and VHS tapes to a digital format using a Panasonic AG 1980p and a Canopus ADVC 3000 as the converter.
Should I add an extra TBC to this set-up?
Thanks,
Richard King
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  #256  
02-06-2020, 03:13 PM
bakerie bakerie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post

Ideally, locate the low-end JVC S-VHS decks, like HR-S3600, 3800, 4600, 4800, 2901, 5902
Ended up impulse purchasing a PANASONIC NV-HS830B for 35
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  #257  
02-06-2020, 11:22 PM
cbehr91 cbehr91 is offline
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For the TBC-less models listed...is something like an ES10/ES15 necessary between the VCR or a frame TBC, or just TBC-less VCR straight to a frame TBC?
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  #258  
02-06-2020, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingrs View Post
I am converting SVHS and VHS tapes to a digital format using a Panasonic AG 1980p and a Canopus ADVC 3000 as the converter.
Should I add an extra TBC to this set-up?
It's not an "extra" TBC. It's a different type. The AG1980P has field (mult-line) TBC for in-image corrections. The external frame TBC corrects the non-visual signal. You need both.

ADVC 300 or 3000? Typo?
The problem with the 300 is it has NR that cannot be disabled (even if turned "off"), and causes some pretty ugly artifacts. Worse yet, 1980 means NTSC, and NTSC loses 50% of the color quality for 4:1:1 DV colorspace compression. It's an expensive card that does a lousy job. Remember, the ADVC line was designed in the late 1990s for Pentium III computers, regardless of being sold as new in the 2000s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerie View Post
Ended up impulse purchasing a PANASONIC NV-HS830B for 35
Not bad for the price. Still not recommended, but not rubbish like most plain VHS decks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbehr91 View Post
For the TBC-less models listed...is something like an ES10/ES15 necessary between the VCR or a frame TBC, or just TBC-less VCR straight to a frame TBC?
Necessary, at least if quality matters. No line TBC (or ES10/15's line'ish) will result in messy wiggly video with harsh chroma noise. Ugly stuff.

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  #259  
02-08-2020, 07:31 PM
bakerie bakerie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Not bad for the price. Still not recommended, but not rubbish like most plain VHS decks.
Mainly because of the lack of noise reduction and TBC, or because the player itself isn't great?
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  #260  
02-16-2020, 10:18 AM
ginopilotino ginopilotino is offline
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I'm going to buy a pal svhs vcr with line TBC. I have to use with svhsc/vhsc from '80.
The bold suggested models in this thread are (ebay price):

JVC HR-S7965EK (?)
JVC HR-S8965EK (?)
JVC HR-S9600EK/EU (400)
JVC HR-S9700EK/EU (600-700)

Blaupunkt RTV-950 (250-300)
Blaupunkt RTV-965 (150-350)
Blaupunkt RTV-966 (?)

Panasonic NV-FS 200 (250-350)
Panasonic NV-HS 1000 (250-400) - Loewe OC 3800 (clone) (150)

JVC HM-DR10000U (700-1500)

What's the better choise for my first tbc vcr?
Is it worth buying the DR10000 for its "ability to cure VHS tearing, much like the Panasonic DMR-ES10 DVD recorder does on pass-through"? Does it has the same disavantages of the es10?
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