Quantcast Filters on cracking sounding audio playback - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
03-07-2010, 09:56 PM
Superstar Superstar is offline
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Can you suggest another filter that might make the commentators, and the fans sound good, they sound alright with what I use with the Hiss Cut 2 twice, then Hiss Cut 1, sometimes I'll use the Flescher/Munson Hiss cut 1 as well, and then I sometimes end with the High Restore E or Fs, since those are Hiss Cut maintained.

I sometimes notice on the DVD after I burn it, that when the crowd cheers loud, or at the very end of the commentators talking, there will be some crackling/static...and I really want to get rid of that. Iseem to be getting rid of most, if not all of the hiss, but I can't seem to get rid of that problem..

Can you suggest a filter(s) that I should use to do this, and can you list in order how I need to use every filter.

Thanks
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  #2  
03-08-2010, 10:16 PM
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Still need help with this, thanks.
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  #3  
03-08-2010, 10:50 PM
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Your file still isn't on the FTP.
under server:\\private\superstar

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  #4  
03-09-2010, 12:11 AM
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I haven't re-uploaded it yet, but this problem is different than that particular file....it can go with it, but this problem happens with many clips...i've noticed it with at least 15-20 actually, the crackling audio with the fans and commentators..
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  #5  
03-09-2010, 10:15 AM
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There's no way to guess on audio, it just varies too much --samples required.

Static is usually a tracking issue on the VCR. To fix this, you'll need to run default or aggressive "pop/click removal" filters in Goldwave. Try that. This has been discussed at http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/show...atic-1163.html in the past.

Examples there, too.

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  #6  
03-09-2010, 02:31 PM
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Ok, the samples are there now, and the problems I'm asking about are in the samples as well, so hopefully you'll be able to get the idea of it.
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  #7  
03-12-2010, 07:16 PM
robjv1 robjv1 is offline
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Also, often times a different VCR just works better for audio. There are some tapes where I am perfectly happy using the linear track and not worrying about it (most of my "crackling" problems are found on Hi-Fi tapes) but other times I am stubborn and I want the Hi-Fi.

A trick I often use:

#1) Record the video and audio together, drop it in a time-line on MPEG Video Wizard

#2) Record the audio from the same VCR, but adjust tracking so that audio is optimal, not paying attention to what the video looks like.

If that still isn't satisfactory, then use another VCR that plays the audio better. Either way, after you are done, drop it on the secondary audio track in MPEG Video Wizard.

#3) Synch the tracks up (you can tell they are synced when there is no echo in either direction, sounds like you are listening to the audio from inside a metal drum). You can even use a combination of both audio tracks if needed. Only thing to watch out for -- make sure the audio track stays in sync for the length of the time-line. This can be a problem especially if you are matching together two sources, where one source might have parts of the tape that are chewed and might cause the audio to skew.

Another (more expensive) trick -- get a JVC SR-W5U VCR. I don't know how it does it, but it masks hi-fi noise better than any other VCR I've tried, including several other JVC models, even on tapes that play very noisy no matter what on any of my fancy or cheap VCRs.
This is one of the advertised features of the VCR and it's supposedly due to the material the heads are made out of, although I imagine the very stable transport mechanism has something to do with it as well.
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  #8  
03-14-2010, 11:30 AM
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It took a while to get back to you one this -- way to go, Parallels software! (long story) -- but I was able to download your two sample clips.

Test1 was corrupt, but could be opened with warnings.
Test2 was corrupt, too damaged to open.

Since
  • there's really nothing identifiable about this clip (generic sports commentating),
  • and it's small,
  • and it may help other site members/readers understand these errors,
  • and because some other site members may have suggestions for you,
  • and it's just a personal project anyway,
... I'm attaching the Test1.wav to this post (an uncorrupted version).

What you have here is audio that has been played too loudly and/or captured with audio settings too high.

Your audio has "red-lined" (or "redlined") -- a term borrowed from the world of cars* -- and the peak decibels go above the abilities of the hardware involved in the transfer. This is no different than kids turning up the speakers too loud in a car, where the audio is distorted because the speakers are not designed to carry the amplitude being fed into it. In many cases, this damages audio components.

This is easy to see in an audio file, as the audio waveform literally flatlines at the upper edge of the window:

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(*Redline refers to the maximum engine speed at which an internal combustion engine and its components are designed to operate, without causing damage to the components themselves or other parts of the engine.) When you apply it to audio, the maximum volume/amp "speed" is being pushed faster than the speaker "engine" can go.

This distortion is generally unfixable -- spell check says that's not a word, but I like it, so nyah nyah on you, spellchecker!

While you cannot fix this, you can sometimes reduce the problem by running filters designed to combat pops/clicks on LPs/records. Goldwave has a pretty decent filter for this.

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In many cases, start with the aggressive preset, and then alter it more from there. When you use a number lower than 1000 (attack value 600 is default for aggressive), you can harm other areas of the audio. It will butcher what you hear -- it's hard to describe the effect, aside from saying "it sounds like crap". It sort of punches holes in the audio, sound can speech can go missing when it's too strong.

For this attached "fix" version, I ran it at a value of 500, and it seemed to work best, removing the noise without really harming the remaining audio. However, that's just for this clip. Depending on what else might be on the full long audio, this may not be a great setting.

Before running the pop/click filter, you need to lower the levels of the audio. Re-normalize it to 50% in SoundForge -- or whatever other audio tool you want to use, SF is my preference.

Then remove the "scratchies" from the audio with that pop/click filter.

However, you're still not done!


While you have reduced the volume/normalization curve to a suitable level, and removed the fuzzy audio sound, you're still left with the underlying shrill peaks. To remove these shrills, you need to carve out some of the upper frequencies. Yes, this will unfortunately dull the fidelity of the entire audio track, but let face it -- it's damaged anyway, and I'll remind you that the goal of restoration is to MAKE IT BETTER and not make it perfect!

This exact problem is why the Hiss Cut Alternate 6 was created, many years ago, for a near-identical situation. This filter is part of the free digitalFAQ Sound Forge Filter Presets Pack download.

You can hear the before and after attached.

This is also what it looks like: (Compare it to the above version!)
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HOWEVER, A SOFTWARE FIX IS REALLY NOT THE ANSWER !!! ...

You would be best off just re-capturing the video, if that is an option.

The Hauppauge PVR series of cards was sometimes known for it's abusive audio recording quality with some input sources -- this may be an issue with your card, or those exact drivers. I don't have any further information on this, or how to fix it, etc -- I'm just aware of it. It might just be this tape reacts badly to that card. Then again, the original broadcast may have been too loud, and the VCR also outputs the too-loud audio, and your card can't handle it.

This is just another reason that audio hardware should be in a workflow, not just video hardware. You can get a pretty decent Behringer mixer board for only $60 from Amazon, with free shipping and no tax. This board usually runs $100 or more at other places (Guiter Center, Best Buy, etc). With this you can adjust input and output gain (levels/volume), and even pre-process with some hardware equalizers, as it has 3 EQs. Note that the cheaper $45 unit is not as good.


Attached Files
File Type: wav Commentator-Test1.wav (1.39 MB, 2 downloads)
File Type: wav Commentator-Test1-Fix.wav (1.39 MB, 1 downloads)
File Type: wav Commentator-Test1-Fix+HissCut6.wav (1.39 MB, 2 downloads)

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  #9  
03-14-2010, 02:39 PM
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Thanks for the reply. Ok, for this, I'm going to need step by step guidance, because this problem is one that I'm going to be facing a lot on my project, and I've never done such in depth audio editing, as you know.

Ok...for this.. "Before running the pop/click filter, you need to lower the levels of the audio. Re-normalize it to 50% in SoundForge -- or whatever other audio tool you want to use, SF is my preference."

What do you mean re-normalize it to 50% in SF?.the ony thing that I've ever done in SF, is the filters..

Now, for the Goldwave Pop and Click, I've never used that either, the only thing that I've ever done in Goldwave is convert the audio to .wav, and close the program. Where does using the pop and click filter need to be in my workflow?
Here is my current workflow -
Capture
Edit in Womble if needed
Split the audio with TMPEG
Encode in MC
Convert audio to WAV in Goldwave
Restore audio in SF
Convert to AC3 in Womble
Edit
Burn

For this..
"his exact problem is why the Hiss Cut Alternate 6 was created, many years ago, for a near-identical situation"

As far as this goes, you never never mentioned Hiss Cut 6 to me before, what you told me to do was Hiss Cut 2 twice, if need be (sometimes I do it 3 times) then Hiss Cut 1 (sometimes I do it twice) then Hiss Cut 0, then High Restore E of F, because they are Hiss Cut maintained. Where would Hiss Cut 6 fit into all of this? Can you give me an updated order of what Hiss Cut filters that I should use?

Do I do this Pop and Click in Goldwave, before or after I take it in SF and do the Hiss Cut filters? Also, how can I tell when I should run it, or should I just do it everytime?

Also, what steps did you take to get the sample fixed..should I use the steps that you did on most of the other ones?

Last edited by Superstar; 03-14-2010 at 02:46 PM.
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  #10  
03-14-2010, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
What do you mean re-normalize it to 50% in SF?.the ony thing that I've ever done in SF, is the filters..
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Quote:
Now, for the Goldwave Pop and Click, I've never used that either, the only thing that I've ever done in Goldwave is convert the audio to .wav, and close the program.
Okay, well now you're going to use it for something else, too.

Quote:
Where does using the pop and click filter need to be in my workflow?
Workflows are not religious texts. This isn't the 10 commandments, where "Thou shalt not kill" always comes in as the 6th one in the list. You put things where they are needed. Workflows change all the time, so this is a question you can't ask. It doesn't have a set place.

Quote:
you never never mentioned Hiss Cut 6 to me before
You didn't need it before.

Quote:
what you told me to do was Hiss Cut 2 twice
If it works, great. If the audio sounds fine having only done it once (or none at all), then you do it just once (or none at all). Don't run extra filters if they're not helping.

Quote:
Can you give me an updated order of what Hiss Cut filters that I should use?
Should I eat the egg first, or the toast? Do I put my pants on with the left leg first, or the right leg first? Sometimes order doesn't really matter. It's the end effect you're going for.

Quote:
Do I do this Pop and Click in Goldwave, before or after I take it in SF and do the Hiss Cut filters?
I would, yes.

Quote:
what steps did you take to get the sample fixed
1. Normalize to 50% in Sound Forge.
2. Pop/click in Goldwave.
3. Hiss Cut Alt 6 in Sound Forge.

Not sure I'd call it "fixed" as much as I'd say it "got better". That error is an ugly one.



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  #11  
03-14-2010, 06:47 PM
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The reason that I asked if there's a specific order I should use is because I didn't know if one filter would overrun the other or something of that nature..I remember you said you usually finish up with the high restores, so I didn't know if for example, if I used a high restore, then used a hiss cut after that, if it would cause it problems.
So.....for confirmation..
Normalize to 50% first
Run Pop & Click in Goldwave
Run Hiss Cut 6 first, then Hiss Cut as many times as needed, other hiss cuts as many times as needed, and High Restore filters if needed.

I know you said that it doesn't really matter what order I should use them in, but does that sound like a good order?

I'll use the order that you used on that test sample, for the whole sample and hopefully it works good. I admit, that was bad lol
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  #12  
03-15-2010, 02:30 AM
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High restore after noise removal, yes.

Confirmed.
1. Normalize
2. Pop/Click
3. Hiss Cut 6
Those 3 must be in that order.

The other hiss cuts -- doesn't really matter.

High restore after all the NR (buzz removing, hiss removing, etc).

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  #13  
03-15-2010, 07:04 AM
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Alright.
Did you listen to the other clip that was with the one you posted in here? Do you think I should take the same steps on that one?
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  #14  
03-15-2010, 07:09 AM
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From several posts back:
Quote:
Test2 was corrupt, too damaged to open.

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  #15  
03-16-2010, 12:48 AM
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"Confirmed.
1. Normalize
2. Pop/Click
3. Hiss Cut 6
Those 3 must be in that order"

I just wanted to clarify...should I do all of these steps in this order on every audio piece that I restore from here on out, or was that just for the sample that you fixed?
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  #16  
03-16-2010, 05:25 AM
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That specific information was ONLY for fixing this kind of error, and the method was tested (and deemed to work) on your submitted sample.

You never run unnecessary filters on videos or audio.

Although I would mention your DVDs need to be in that 6db range shown in this image:



Re-normalize audio that has a "bigger" (louder) waveform. You don't want it to touch the edges, or even come close. Those guide marks are there because that's a "sweet spot".

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  #17  
03-26-2010, 05:56 PM
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I went to do the renormalize on the actual audio that the test came from that you worked on..but the 50% that you said you used, and is shown in the pic is not in my program...how do I get it?
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  #18  
03-26-2010, 09:14 PM
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That setting is in the Sound Forge presets filter pack free download. You must've not imported everything correctly. Try to redo your filters.

If nothing else, the settings are shown in the above image. Just match what you see.


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  #19  
03-28-2010, 10:53 PM
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How do you mean match it? By moving the slider?
If I re-download that pack, will it hurt what I already have in SF since I did it before?
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  #20  
03-29-2010, 01:59 AM
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Yes, the slider.

Hurt it? Don't think so, no. It might ask you to overwrite anything already on the system. Since the new and old should be the same, not an issue to overwrite.

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