Baking tapes to fix VHS errors

[deter]

Well I saw in one of your posts about a guy who bakes tapes. I called him up, granted he was old school and wouldn't help cause he said people steal his ideas. Was going to send him a beta tape cause he said he could fix it, but than later told him it was recorded TV from 1988. He said he wouldn't do it, cause of copyright laws. Which is nonsense since it is my own recorded copy. More than likely 22 years later, not many if any people still have this recording. However he said he would bake it on principal.

However he kind of hinted that certain TBC's would fixed or mask out the drop outs. Wouldn't tell what product to purchase in order to do this. He also wouldn't say what kind of betamax player he uses.

No interest in Avisynth. It is possible to full out frames from videos and clean them up in paintshop pro. Than place them back in to the films. However on 3 or 4 of these old tapes the drops are 2 great to fix by hand. If it was only like 100 frames no problems. Thousands it is just not worth the time....

[deter]

My question is this on copyright stuff. In my other post I quoted something about old restored doctor who videos. The originals were trashed by the BBC. The Doctor Who restore team put them back together using someone's in the USA betamax recordings from the mid 1970's. The Doctor Who restore team is not part of the BBC, they are hired by contract. Granted they were NTSC and the BBC uses PAL. According to the tape baker in massachusetts this is illegal to do. Cause according to him you can't make copies or give your tapes out. If this is the case, the BBC commited a crime in finding some of their lost adventures. That is why I think this tape baker is full of shit.

[kpmedia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deter

The Doctor Who restore team is not part of the BBC, they are hired by contract. ...... That is why I think this tape baker is full of...

The baker is misinformed, yes.

You work with whatever sources you have available. While there are many gray areas, many untested areas -- and rules/contracts/laws/etc that vary from place to place, case by case -- this is a clear instance where the copyright owner has located versions of its work, and paid to have it serviced. Everybody just needs to act in an ethical manner, and do everything in good faith.

When you have ongoing relationships with studios and corporate accounts, you learn these things.

Hope that clears it up.

[admin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deter

wouldn't help cause he said people steal his ideas.

Oh, good grief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deter

However he kind of hinted that certain TBC's would fixed or mask out the drop outs. Wouldn't tell what product to purchase in order to do this.

I have two thoughts on this:

1. Sometimes I know "about" something, but don't fully know all the applicable details. As a journalist, I've come to accept that as a fact of life. It not uncommon to speak with experts, and be given basic information on what is possible, without having a list of specs or a recipe on exactly how to do it. If nothing else, in that line of work, the minutia of details isn't always important. So I can understand this.

2. But if you know the details, specs and recipes -- and you just don't want to share -- that's just being a smug ass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deter

He also wouldn't say what kind of betamax player he uses.

Be afraid of services that won't tell you about their equipment.

[deter]

admin,

This is your guy that you use. I found the link to him on this site.

He told me his competition would love to know how he does things. He never gives out his info because he has been doing this for years, and he is really good at it.

I can't comment on any of his work, or what he does, no information. He seems like he knows what he is doing, kind of.

I also asked him about your 352x480 method to remove marcoblocks and to improve bitrate. He said he would never restore a video that is not full DVD quality. (I have messed around with FR180 and it is pretty good)

I asked him how do you get around marcoblocks he said he never get them and that I am doing something wrong. I wanted to bet him, that I would find marcoblocks in one of his videos. He uses 2 hour SP mode.

[robjv1]

I would love to see some results from guy, because when it comes to tapes, he sounds more like a medicine show than a doctor.

Are you using a DVD recorder to make your conversions?

I do a lot of wrestling conversions, which require a high-bit rate because of all the fast movements, the lights, the smoke, and the highly detailed and active backgrounds (the crowd). For me, on my JVC DR-M100 recorder, I've found FR80 is the sweet spot, a good balance between bitrate and length of disc. The macroblocking is very minor at worst and I only see if it I'm sitting a foot away from the TV.

Also as a side note -- a good CRT TV is really the best (imo) for viewing VHS quality material, especially from a dubious source. If you can find one used on Craigslist, a Sony XBR-960 or XBR-970 (34") makes a great TV for viewing both HD stuff (they are HD-CRTs) or SD stuff. They are heavy as hell, but have a wonderful picture, I have two of them myself and they put my LCD TV to shame for viewing VHS level material. CRT's have a tendency to hide less than desirable video elements that LCDs can magnify on lower-quality material, especially if it's a very well made CRT. They go on Craigslist for around $200 usually and pop up quite frequently, so look locally in your area.

[admin]

Quote:

admin, This is your guy that you use. I found the link to him on this site.

VideoInterchange, right? That's really disappointing to hear.

Quote:

He told me his competition would love to know how he does things. He never gives out his info because he has been doing this for years, and he is really good at it.

The only competition that would wonder such a thing doesn't know anything about video, and shouldn't be his competition anyway.

At best, I'd be interested in his homespun ideas on baking, but I'm not without my own methods. All it takes is a temperature-exact non-kitchen oven, and some trial-and-error (not with client tapes, of course!), and some knowledge of tapes. Aside from hurricane season, there's not much demand for baking, so it's something we refer his way -- I don't want to mess with it. The tapes tend to be gross/nasty, and I'm just not interested.

I have two moldy tapes here that I'm sending back to the client, and giving a referral on. No interested in cleaning the mold, then baking out the moisture that caused it to grow. Ewwww, yuck. Not my thing.

Quote:

I also asked him about your 352x480 method to remove marcoblocks and to improve bitrate. He said he would never restore a video that is not full DVD quality. (I have messed around with FR180 and it is pretty good)

When somebody says "Full DVD quality" that shows they've been reading some marketing hoo-hah for some product, and not reading the DVD specs --- and DEFINITELY not working with any kind of commercial interests, like studios or corporate clients.

That kind of BS flies for Joe Bob the know-nothing consumer, but you won't get an studio work if you come across as an amateur hack. "I only do full DVD quality" doesn't cut it with that crowd.

There's no such descriptions as "full DVD quality" anywhere in the DVD specs, at authoring houses, etc. That's just stupid. The DVD spec covers a wide ranges of video and audio options. If you want to max out a DVD to "full DVD quality", then don't stop at 720x480 -- pump it up to 10080kbps stream, and add in PCM audio, with an AC3 and DTS option, too! This consumer idea of "full DVD quality" is for the birds.

Quote:

I asked him how do you get around marcoblocks he said he never get them and that I am doing something wrong. I wanted to bet him, that I would find marcoblocks in one of his videos. He uses 2 hour SP mode.

The only way to really put two hours on a disc, from VHS sources --AND have it relatively noise-free -- is to re-filter it in software (beyond anything a capture card or DVD recorder may have done), then multi-pass VBR encode it in a professional MPEG encoder like MainConcept Reference, and probably use a DVD+R DL disc.

DVD recorders don't cut it, to make such a broad statement.

We work with stuff like this all the time.

"We don't get macroblocks" is a lie, no matter who says it. I had to tell a client a while back that there was simply no way to give him a block-free DVD of his shaky handheld video of his kids swimming in a lake. Between the wide angle of the hundreds of waves, the awful sunlight, the sea-sick motion of handheld camera work --- there is NO WAY that it would be block-free as an MPEG. It looked fine uncompressed, maybe as H.264, but that was it.

Better hardware + software + users = less macroblocks, less often. But that's about it. You can't say you never get macroblocks. That reminds me of a girl I knew in college, who insisted she had never farted ("Ladies don't fart"). It's easy to say something, but that's all it is --- talk.

Even DV, H.264 and high bitrate MPEG-2 (optionally at a higher profile than MP@ML, too!) can still get blocking and compression artifacts.

Remember that MPEG-2 is encoded in a checkboard block grid -- macroblocks. But most people use the term "macroblocking" or "macroblocks" only when they start to see the boundaries and borders of said blocks. It's actually not the correct technical term for the error -- they're usually just referred to as "digital artifacts". However, that term is so wide, covering so many issues. Hence the more specialized, albeit incorrect, "macroblocks" for identifying this specific kind of artifact.

And "you're doing something wrong" is a cop out.

In some of the stuff studios have sent us, sometimes discs have quite a few macroblocks, and that's off a Scenarist hardware card. (In their case, however, the DVD author could have done a better job -- albeit I'll admit he DID have his work cut out for him, as the 16mm source was in dreadful shape!)

Quote:

a good CRT TV is really the best (imo) for viewing VHS quality material, especially from a dubious source

In general, I'd have to agree.

However, a Sony SXRD (LCD/LCoS projection) HDTV has several dozen internal video quality filters. It looks better than any CRT or LCD. These were 2006-2008 televisions, sadly discontinued. The next-best thing is a current Sony XBR LCD.

[admin]

I moved the HDTV discussion to its own topic: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/show...hing-2083.html

We'll leave this topic strictly about tape baking.

[admin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deter

He told me his competition would love to know how he does things. He never gives out his info because he has been doing this for years, and he is really good at it. .

This still really just irks me, even days later.

I was again reminded of it today, because something similar was in an article of THE WEEK magazine -- an excellent weekly news mag!
Limited online edition at http://theweek.com/home if you're interested!

For most photographers, videographers and web designers/developers, modern "competition" is the person who thinks they can do it for themselves, instead of using a pro service.

Here's the article -- it's about DIY projects on your home, but you can see a lot of overlap with video/media work:
theweek-hiddencostsDIY.jpg

If somebody wants to do the DIY method, let them. They're going to quickly discover high quality output isn't possible, so being afraid of "competition" (that is, the DIY crowd) is not a big issue.

Your average piece-o-crap DVD recorder from Walmart or Best Buy, coupled with an old 1995 VCR, is going to create some ugly looking junk.

• I feel sorry for people that don't know better is possible.
• On the other hand, people who say "good enough, it's only VHS" need to be smacked good and hard to the backside of the head -- especially when it's irreplaceable family memories, like weddings, birthdays, etc. Same goes for business websites or wedding photos/videos!

You can't DIY everything. Owning a computer and TV, and having the ability to shop doesn't mean you'll get quality (or even usable!) results from DVDs you make.

If these people want quality work, they'll still have to hunt down a good service. If they want shoddy work or if they want to be cheap about it, then revealing your "secrets" won't help anyway. I reveal "secrets" here all the time, and most people still can't understand it -- even after I re-explain it several times over.

This kind of work still involves expensive software and hardware, and has one hell of a learning curve to get good at using it.

• If a cheapskate is both unscrupulous and lucky, he/she may be able to find cracked pirated version of the software you need for these tasks -- although most of those tend to be cracked trials (lacking full version features), buggy or otherwise infected with something harmful. Honestly, they get what they deserve. Many are non-existent in the underground world, being largely "unknown" apps, or well-programmed with anti-piracy measures. There is a good bit of freeware out there, but it only takes you so far.
• Downloading for free doesn't work for the hardware. Finding it tends to be hard, and you'd have to be a thief to get it.
• You can't steal skills and experience, period. (This isn't science function, Vulcan mild melds don't work here!)

I've been working with digital video for more than a decade now (yes, pre-DVD-R(G)!), and had been doing analog video editing for some years before that.


Think about it this way:

• When I get sick, I go to the doctor. Some .com medical site and shopping at a pharmacy isn't the same. I'm not a medical professional, I admit it. I try self-medicating on Advil or Nyquil first, but it usually doesn't help.
• When my car breaks down, I take it to a shop. A car manual and parts from the auto parts store won't help. I'm not a mechanic, I admit it. I ask a family members for his help (amateur mechanic), but he can't always fix it.
• When somebody needs video work done -- sure, try it, knock yourself out -- when it fails, we're here.

Members of this site are considered students.

You guys come here to learn this stuff, realizing it's hard, dedicated to the end. Many of you do well at it.
Some have even turned it into local businesses for themselves, and that's great.

Check out the 15 months of posts from forum member Superstar, as he's struggled to learn the in's and out's of getting the most from his videos, to quality DVDs. Even with professional advice and $$$'s in hardware and software, it's more than a year into the project and he still has snags and snafus along the way. Few consumers have the kind of patience or investment capital to do their own work like this -- and that's where customers come from.

That's a perfect example for somebody to look at, when trying to decide "Should I do it myself?". For most people, the answer is "No!"


Also...

There's something to be said for professional courtesy. As a long-time photojournalist, I can "talk shop" with photographers at events, game sidelines, conventions. There are magazines and tradezines.

Doctors have conventions and medical journals.

Video broadcasting is the same. I get no fewer than 5 magazines a month, chalked full of tips and "secrets".

These little online-only businesses are exceedingly becoming detached from reality. Between fear of "stealing their secrets" or propagating malarkey like "tapes die in just 10 years" it's getting outright ridiculous. Such attitudes limit them in the long-run. People notice this stuff, and they talk about it -- like we're doing right now.