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  #81  
08-18-2014, 03:31 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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I think you're looking at it backwards. Most capture devices I've used don't truncate anything. A few do clip superblacks, regardless of how you set the Proc Amp. With a normal device you set it so that your blacks are at 16, whites at 235, and it captures the superblacks and superwhites.
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  #82  
08-18-2014, 03:35 PM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Well then if you tell it to allow Full Range, then Black till be 0 and White will be 255 right?
Simply allow Full Range in virtualdub, and adjust the brightness/contrast?
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  #83  
08-18-2014, 09:44 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean. "Allow full range"?
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  #84  
08-18-2014, 09:51 PM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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In virtualdub, when you capture the default is TV range right?
So anything below or above 16/235 is clipped.

But if you check Extend Luma white/black point this goes to 0-255. (this is what i mean with Allow full range).
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  #85  
08-19-2014, 02:19 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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No; if you're capturing YUV by default in VirtualDub what you get is whatever the device outputs. As I said above, for most devices this keeps superblacks and superwhites intact (it's up to you to ensure that actual black and white are calibrated to TV range).

I believe the options you're referring to interpolate the incoming data outward, thus clipping the ends.
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  #86  
08-19-2014, 03:28 PM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Ah i thought so much, but hoped i was wrong.

So extending is simply altering the already received data, which would be the same at just changing TV -> PC with Avisynth later, which would lose it's purpose anyway in the way i wanted.

Well i guess all Capture cards capture in TV range. Exception may be Digital input.
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  #87  
06-20-2015, 11:19 AM
Dan_Dryer Dan_Dryer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juhok View Post
How about Kramer FC-400. Kramer seems like a respectable manufacturer, their unit is still available for a reasonable $600-700USD, specs list among else 10bit AD/DA which is a nice bonus. I've been searching high and low and cannot find anyone with real first hand experience with this Frame Sync.
Did anyone here try the Kramer FC-400 mentioned earlier in this thread? It's one of the few sub-$1000 TBCs still available to buy brand-new (although discontinued by the manufacturer) and yet reviews/user opinions online are non-existent. It doesn't seem to show up on the second hand market either.

I need a TBC to provide reliable sync from the S-Video output of my LaserDisc player before feeding the corrected signal to an AV Receiver/video processor. It appears that modern video processors don't like 'unstable' sync from LD players, which surprises me because LD players have line-level TBCs built in. When outputting S-video to an AVR from my LD player, the AVR frequently loses sync for a couple of seconds before video is restored, especially when selecting still-frame or using picture search.

I'm not concerned about video capture at this stage, and I don't like what I've read about the AVT-8710 and other TBCs in this price range which all have cheap video processors included. I'm pefectly happy with the video quality from my LD player when upscaled by the AVR, I just need a TBC to maintain sync without having a detrimental effect on the picture.
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  #88  
06-22-2015, 05:38 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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I advice to check your LD player. The output from the LD player should be as stable as rock. Try the DVD player's S-Video and see if u get the same problem. Also S-Video from the LD player might not be the best idea.
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  #89  
06-22-2015, 07:16 PM
Dan_Dryer Dan_Dryer is offline
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The LD player works fine when connected directly to a TV via S-Video, so I know the player is OK. The 3D Comb Filter in the player is superior to the 2D filter in the AVR, so using an S-video connection is still my preferred option.

I've noticed that the AVR's video processor only loses sync when using 3D processing in the LD player. If I switch the player's 3D Comb Filter off, so it's operating in 2D mode, then there's no loss of sync, but of course that introduces other issues such as cross colour contamination and dot crawl. I'm hoping if I use a TBC, I'll be able to continue using the player's Comb Filter.

I've tried a direct composite video connection to the TV (by-passing the AVR's video processor), and found that whilst the TV has a very good 3D Comb Filter built-in, de-interlacing performed by the TV is useless and produces an unacceptably soft picture. I much prefer the image clarity produced by the AVR.

If I can't solve these sync problems by using a TBC, then I suppose my next option would be to try a dedicated video processor from DVDO or Lumigen.
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  #90  
06-22-2015, 08:12 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Something is not right in your LD player's 3D comb filter. I doubt TBC will help. What player is it? Also keep in mind that the LD player's built-in 3D comb filter converts analog signal to digital, than back to analog for S-Video.

Honestly, if I were you, I'd digitize all of the LDs losslessly and then produce either DVDs or BDs or whatever. What are you going to do if your LD player breaks?

Last edited by metaleonid; 06-22-2015 at 08:43 PM.
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  #91  
06-22-2015, 09:02 PM
Dan_Dryer Dan_Dryer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metaleonid View Post
Something is not right in your LD player's 3D comb filter.
But the 3D Comb Filter works fine when S-Video is output directly to a TV, so if anything's 'not right' it's the way the AVR'S video processor is overly fussy about timing.

The player is a Pioneer HLD-X9 with very low usage. You're right about the digitizing though, I will eventually need to capture any content which isn't available on DVD/Blu-ray. I have a back-up LD player, but it's nowhere near as good as the X9.
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  #92  
06-24-2015, 08:15 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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I chose a different approach. Instead of X9 which converts the signal to digital and then back to analog I chose Elite LD-S2 which is produces the best analog picture with very little noise. I'll be using external 3D comb filter from ATI HD 750 PCIe capture card and from Panasonic DMR-ES25 DVD Recorder.
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  #93  
06-24-2015, 09:51 PM
Dan_Dryer Dan_Dryer is offline
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Yes, I've heard the LD-S2 is a great player. I prefer the convenience of a double sided player, although I'm sure I wouldn't turn down an LD-S2 or HLD-X0 if they were offered.

I asked Kramer what Comb Filter they use in their FC-400 TBC when converting composite to S-Video, and all they could tell me was that it's "done digitally in firmware" and they're not sure what algorithm is used, which seems a little vague. I suppose it's a product I'll just have to try for myself, if I can find a retailer with a good enough return policy.
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  #94  
06-27-2015, 09:11 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Given that all you're looking to do is sending your existing S-Video signal to your AVR in a format that doesn't lose sync, I would say look on your local Craigslist for any DVD recorders with S-Video input and HDMI output (analog output would also work but then you incur an extra DAC step). Get the model numbers and Google the manuals to check whether they can output 480i over HDMI, because otherwise you will be stuck using the recorder's deinterlacing which may be even worse than your TV's.

That should be far cheaper than a TBC, at least if your area is anything like mine for DVD recorder prices ($15-40 for non-combos) and if the seller is agreeable you may be able to test before you buy.
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  #95  
06-28-2015, 02:52 PM
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The DVD recorder option is one I might consider as a last resort. I'm trying to avoid buying even more old, bulky equipment at this stage and would prefer a tidier solution if at all possible.

Having said that, I believe the Panasonic DMR-ES20 series have really good 3D Comb Filters (possibly superior to the one in the HLD-X9) which would enable me to use a composite video connection from the X9 if required. I would have to look into the deinterlacing quality of those recorders and whether there's an option to output 480i as you said.
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  #96  
06-28-2015, 08:23 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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The DMR-ES20 does have a decent y/c comb filter but it doesn't have HDMI output. Like most DVD recorders, it records interlaced video. It does so because by strict specification, DVD (and standard definition BluRay/AVCHD as well) are interlaced. The ES20 also has elementary built-in line-level and frame-level sync tbc's on its Line 1 input. It can output progressive-scan 480p thru its component output.
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  #97  
06-29-2015, 09:46 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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The deinterlacer in the DMR-ES25 (HDMI) is truly horrible when it's actually operating in interpolation ("Video") mode, but it does have film mode detection that you can switch on for each individual input. (Progressive "Off" does nothing for HDMI on this unit; it's for the component output.)

DMR-ES25 setting - Transfer mode.png

The 3D comb filter is the same as the DMR-ES15 and DMR-ES10 so it's probably the same as the DMR-ES20. The comb filter of my DMR-E20 (2002) looks very similar too, though a little worse. Not sure how these compare to the HLD-X9 or X0. There are some images available throughout this thread, but you do have to keep in mind that most of the DVD recorder test patterns are being fed from low-noise DVD outputs, while the LD tests are done with analog players and analog pressings that may have complicating factors going back as far as the master.

Unlike the DMR-ES25, (some of?) Panasonic's later NTSC models have 480i output over HDMI, and it seems like all of their PAL models with HDMI output I looked at can do it interlaced.


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  #98  
06-29-2015, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
....Panasonic's later NTSC models have 480i output over HDMI, and it seems like all of their PAL models with HDMI output I looked at can do it interlaced.
Yes, here is an example.
Panasonic DMR EH595...see screens

[Also works with a Pana DMR EH65]


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  #99  
06-29-2015, 03:27 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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What's the example of later NTSC models with 480i output over HDMI? And what's their 3D comb filter? Is there also a Posterization artifact?

Actually I'm relying on ATI 750 HD PCIe for 3D comb filter, if I don't get AGC issues. I do get them on couple of LDs with LD-S2, but not on others and not with CLD-703 player.

The setup of Panasonic DMR-ES25 + Conexant based Component USB stick is there just in case.
If this can be replaced with better 3D comb filter and HDMI output, I'll look at the possibility.
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  #100  
06-30-2015, 02:56 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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DMR-EZ28 for example. I have no idea about the comb filter for these late models. It could be 2D for all I know.

I think I sent you an email about a 3DYC card that can be set to manual gain.
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