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  #1  
07-18-2011, 08:58 AM
unclescoob unclescoob is offline
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Hi everyone,

How can I perform this task without having to break up the film into different segments?

Thanks
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  #2  
07-18-2011, 09:31 PM
unclescoob unclescoob is offline
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Rephrase:

Is it possible to apply different filters to different sections of my .VOB video in Virtualdub without having to break that video into different segments and apply the filters accordingly? What I am trying to avoid is having to load my .vob into Virtualdub, breaking the video into various segments, applying filters, saving it as an avi and re-appending the file together. I am not being lazy, just concerned about reincoding and quality loss.

Does this clarify my original post? Any hint would be greatly appreciated.
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  #3  
07-18-2011, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Message preview (may have changed if user edited it):
-- So 14 people saw this post, but not ONE could give me an answer. Did I just "not come out" correctly?
I saw it, but couldn't write an immediate answer -- busy on a project.

VirtualDub is a very limited tool, when it comes to editing. So no, you can't really apply filters and export the results in a single pass. You'd have to break the video into pieces. You could always re-merge them with a stream copy, appending each piece back into a master file.

Personally, I just use Adobe Premiere for the re-merge (if there are many pieces), and another lossless or uncompressed encode won't hurt anything.

In fact, I'll just use Premiere outright if the project is complicated. For example, here's a project from July 2010:

sample-baseball-colorcorrection.jpg

Full-sized trio of images in the attached RAR file.

That VHS tape had to be captured in chunks, due to differences in tape quality along the recording, as well as abrupt changes in lighting quality on each camera. The problem was 3-4 cameras shot a game, but each camera had vastly different lighting quality, which made cuts back and forth ugly to watch. By calibrating each camera to a set proc amp setting, the best possible off-tape quality was achieved, as multiple recordings (one for each camera). Each recording was then further processed in Premiere.

In addition, lighting conditions changed as afternoon went into nightfall, meaning the adjustments both in hardware and software were altered along the time axis. So one camera had maybe 3-5 adjustments in the course of its recording. So one camera angle was maybe 3-5 captures, not a single pass. Multiplied by 3-4 cameras. So at least a dozen separate video sources.

Those camera edits were then cut up (good parts only saved), and then spliced back together as a single baseball championship game that's been archived. It turned out pretty good, given the lousy quality of the source tape, and they way it was shot 20+ years ago.

In all, it required a lot of hardware proc amp work to pre-process, followed by hours of time in the editor, to tweak clips. Not cheap, not easy.

The NR work was done in VirtualDub and Avisynth. The color corrections were all done in Adobe Premiere Pro CS3. I've upgraded to Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 since that time, at a reduced cost right before Adobe Premiere Pro CS5 came out. Each new version has gotten successively better at color work and encoding quality, since CS3.

I just wanted to give an example of how much work can go into color corrections and editing, and why VirtualDub is far too limited for many scenarios. My needs greatly exceeded the capabilities of VirtualDub, and it sounds like your needs may also exceed the functional abilities of VDub.


Attached Files
File Type: rar PremiereCS3-colorcorrection-example).rar (555.0 KB, 6 downloads)

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  #4  
07-18-2011, 10:20 PM
unclescoob unclescoob is offline
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Hey, thanks! But mostly thanks for not being another shallow, purist, unoriginal/uninspired moron blindly parroting "duuh...did'ya try avisynth?" Yes you mentioned avisynth but At LEAST you additionally mentioned different software for a change. As opposed to giving me the ol' double-talk I seem to bump into in video help threads: 2003: "Try Virtualdub! It's the best!!" / 2011: "Duuuh...Virtualdub sucks. Duuh...did'ya try avisynth? it's powerful! duuuh...but don't expect it to fix anything...(another parroted uninspired phrase coming).... 'garbage in garbage out!'.

Ok enough of that.

Ok, as far as my source is, no it's not as serious as yours. Mine is just a 20 minute cartoon with alot of noise. But noise that is apparent in the dark scenes more than in those that are not dark. I wanted to apply the following to the DARK scenes:

1. Neatvideo(with it's own temporal smoother)
2. DNR at 3 the highest

Then in the NON-dark scenes, I wanted to keep it just at neatvideo.

The dark scenes I wanted to apply DNR to eliminate the "crawlies" if you know what I mean. Low settings to avoid ghosting.

What do you think? The required work is not as complicated. It also won't require technical jargon when I explain how I did it to someone else. But in any event, it will be done nicely. *shudders* Please don't hit me.

Last edited by unclescoob; 07-18-2011 at 10:32 PM.
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  #5  
09-18-2011, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
I wanted to apply the following to the DARK scenes:
1. Neatvideo(with it's own temporal smoother)
2. DNR at 3 the highest
Then in the NON-dark scenes, I wanted to keep it just at neatvideo.
You'll have to split the video into separate pieces. There's no other way. At least not one that I'm aware of.

You can Mark In and Mark Out the areas you want to process, using the timeline at the bottom of the VirtualDub window. But it's still processing one by one. You'll have to re-merge everything, and I don't know if there's a way to automate that.

I don't work with VirtualDub batch processing much because it's really crappy.

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  #6  
09-25-2011, 09:43 PM
unclescoob unclescoob is offline
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Do you work with Virtualdub at all when doing professional work for others?
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  #7  
09-26-2011, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclescoob View Post
Do you work with Virtualdub at all when doing professional work for others?
Yes, certainly.

Those big-name, big-bucks programs like Final Cut Pro and Adobe Premiere Pro have many great filters. But noise reduction filters are not some of them. In fact, what most high-end NLE's pass off as an NR filter is a joke. It's not even remotely as good as the basic NR filters found included with VirtualDub or Avidemux. Optional filters are better yet, especially when working with Avisynth or a combination of Avisynth and VirtualDub. Those same methods are not just employed by restoration labs, but forensic media environments. Nobody really cares how much it costs or who made it -- it just needs to work and give the desired results. If nothing else, people like me are grateful for the open-source tools that exist, and try to do what we can to spread the word of even support it in some way (funds, code contributions, guides, etc).

The big reason NLE filters are lousy is because garbage source isn't really the typical use of their program. It's often an editor used by a content producer, who has perfect sources. It's not for the person trying to restore butchered videotape sources.

For film sources, there's quite a few high-end pieces of hardware and software, made by well-known video companies (Snell & Willcox, Blackmagic, Faroudja, etc) -- though most average non-video eggheads will have never heard of those brands.

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  #8  
09-28-2011, 09:08 AM
unclescoob unclescoob is offline
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Thanks for the reassurance. I was starting to worry, since I do use Virtualdub to clean my video, and frameserve to HcEnc with Avisynth.

LordSmurf, one more question, please (and thanks in advance): On an older thread at VideoHelp.com, where various encoders were being discussed in terms of quality and compression, you and Manono agreed that AVI sources are already degraded. Now, although you were using torrent downloads as an example of poor quality AVI (which I couldn't agree with you more), my question is: Does this same degradation in quality also occur when you open your VOB (a rip from a professional, retail DVD episode) in Virtualdub, apply necessary filters, and save that same video as an uncompressed AVI (Huffyuv), with the goal of re-encoding back to MPEG-2 for DVD?
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  #9  
09-28-2011, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
you and Manono agreed that AVI sources are already degraded
Such a statement would have relied completely on context. An AVI is not a video format, or a video codec. An AVI is a container file for video formats/codecs. Without a point of reference, "AVI" is meaningless. It's like telling a mechanic over the phone that you have a "car" when he asks for the make and model.

Quote:
Does this same degradation in quality also occur when you open your VOB (a rip from a professional, retail DVD episode) in Virtualdub, apply filters, and save that same video as an AVI, with the goal of re-encoding back to MPEG-2 for DVD?
Degradation is one way, and only one way. If you take an MPEG file, and re-encode it to an uncompressed or lossless file, nothing is lost. If you take an uncompressed or lossless file, and compress it to an MPEG, quality is lost.

But it's also not that simple. "Lost quality" is a subjective term. I could create a broadcast spec MPEG, and I dare you to find a flaw. Same for multi-pass encodes on a clean source with professional software or hardware. Technically, on paper, in theory, yes -- quality is lost. In actuality, your eyes may see an image quality that seems fine. (And then there's always the dreaded "good enough", which means it looks like crap but you're too lazy or cheap to make it better.)

So you can take a ripped DVD (retail or homemade -- doesn't matter), filter it for better quality, and then re-encode it to MPEG, and end up with a better overall image. The MPEG > AVI will be fine, and you may re-introduce loss on the AVI > MPEG step, but it really depends on the errors still present in the AVI after filtering. The biggest enemy to MPEG is grain and image noise.

Remember to conservatively mask your overscan, or you waste up to 1Mbps in bitrate! Only cover as much as needed, without encroaching into the "TV safe" boundary

VirtualDub is a powerful tool that is easy to misuse. It's like firing a shotgun with no training. You can just as easily hit yourself in the face on recoil, as opposed to hitting the bullseye (or even hitting the target, period). That's the problem with most VirtualDub users -- they have no idea what they're doing. They use automatic settings, presets, or simply go overboard with the settings available on some filters. I've seen far more abused video than I have fixed video.

I've been using VDub for the better part of a decade, and I sometimes still come across a feature or setting I've never used before.

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  #10  
09-28-2011, 09:58 AM
unclescoob unclescoob is offline
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A tremendous help, informative and clear and consise in your explanations. As always.

Thank you very much, Mr. Smurf

I am planning on donating to this site sometime next week for the Premium Membership. You guys are awesome.
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  #11  
09-28-2011, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclescoob View Post
I am planning on donating to this site sometime next week for the Premium Membership.
Excellent.

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