DVD recorder as pass-through - which model?

[metaleonid]

Hi Lordsmurf,

I have tried to capture from LaserDiscs over the weekend. Used S-Video out to connect to ATI USB 600. Also tried Composite out connecting to Compro VideoMate (that has motion adaptive 3d comb filter). Also tried Composite out to ATI 550Pro PCI card - this one also has motion adaptive 3d comb filter.

I was only happy with ATI USB 600 result. Compro VideoMate image is very blurry. ATI 550Pro has AGC which is not as bad as ATI 650, but still blows whites a bit. And when I tried to reduce brightness and contrast, it blows up black level and is too dark.

So I want to go your path, i.e. put the middleman (DVD Recorder) in between LD player and ATI USB 600. I can't find the post where you mentioned the model. Could you please let me know what you did for motion adaptive?

Another question - does it make sense to use motion adaptive 3d comb filter? Yes I did have dot crawl a bit and a bit of grain with ATI USB 600. But would 3d comb filter blurry the picture? Thanks.

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[lordsmurf]

Panasonic DMR-ES10

For LD, the source palyer is often the weak link. And you need usually to use composite, not s-video. LD is the exception to the "always use s-video" rule. Which Laserdisc player are you using?

[metaleonid]

Hi Lordsmurf,

Thank you. I am using LD-S2 which is the 2nd best LD player for NTSC.

I was wondering if motion adaptive 3d comb filter of this DVD Recorder is configurable and also if it's possible to turn NR completely off.

Another question. This unit has component out too. Does it make a sense to use a capture card with component input rather than S-Video input? Or is S-Video good enough? Thank you.

I've already read good things about Panasonic DMR-ES10. I also found that there's Panasonic DMR-ES25 with apparently the same 3d comb filter, but with added HDMI out. I was now just wondering if I can take HDMI output and record it in SD 720x480 29.97i. Has anyone tried something like this? I've never dealt with HDMI so I wouldn't know.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

need a quick advise.
First off, as a middleman for comb filter is it going to be the same as what you recommended DMR-ES10?

No.

The DMR-ES25 is not the same as the ES10. Only the ES10 has this exact function. The ES10 was first, followed by the ES15, ES20, and ES25. I forget if the ES15 or ES20 had the ability, but doubt it. I know the ES25 did not have it.

The ES10 is from 2006 -- 7 years ago. For me, a lifetime ago. As time goes on, the more details I forget. I often have to refer back to my own posts online, or notes offline, to know what's what.

Quote:

What do you think of idea of trying HDMI out? If not relevant, would component out ouf DMR-ES10/25 be a better idea than just plain S-Video out? Thanks.

These units don't have HDMI. Too old. The component won't do any good if the capture card only has s-video.

[metaleonid]

I already purchased ES25 on ebay.

I based my decision on post on this thread:
http://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=562&start=60
It says:
The US model of the Panasonic DMR-ES10 (P/PC?) seems to have the same great comb filter as the US model of the Panasonic DMR-ES25 (P/PC?).

But DMR-ES25 has HDMI that's why I wanted to try this path.

--Leonid

[msgohan]

The DMR-ES15's comb filter functions the same as the DMR-ES10. All four recorders in the ES1*/ES2* series use the same video processor, so it's likely they all perform similarly. Of course, it's impossible to say for sure without actually comparing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

These units don't have HDMI. Too old.

As noted, the ES25 does. 2006, the year of HD DVD & Blu-ray.

metaleonid: Could you post a sample showing the AGC issue with the ATI 550, please?

[lordsmurf]

The only thing I refer to is the pass-through filter. Based on reports from that time, only the ES10 had it for sure. I could never get agreement for the ES15 or ES20. The ES25 is confirmed for sure not to have it, from what I can remember.

I don't like to give bad advice, so I'd only look for the ES10. If the ES15/20 are cheap to pick up, and you don't mind losing money gambling on video hardware, then see what they do. The filter is easy -- put a known-bad tape with tearing issues in it. It fixes it on passthrough, while the others do not. Also look at the other filters, specifically the black-level input and output.

[metaleonid]

I haven't been able to test DMR-ES25 for VHS captures. However, I confirm that HDMI out works as pass-through. I tested it with the flat screen TV. Next step would be to get Blackmagic Design Intensity Shuttle for Thunderbolt and test this set up. Can anyone advise how to make adjustments if any on DMR-ES25 in terms of gain (need it fixed), comb filter, NR (need it off) and so forth. Thank you.

update --

DMR-ES25 does eliminate tearing issues. I tried the VHS with tearing (bent) image running S-Video from my JVC to DMR-ES25 and in turn running component to Blackmagic Shuttle. No tearing was observed. I wish I knew this better. Now I captured bunch of VHS with presented tearing at the top. Some of them I can recapture and some of them are gone. Is there a way to fix tearing issues with AVISYnth?

--Leonid

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by metaleonid

Is there a way to fix tearing issues with AVISYnth?

Nope.

Crop it out is best you can do.

[metaleonid]

I just found that there's a potential problem with such DVD Recorder to be used as pass-through... well, read this post...

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...y-shuttle.html

If I capture a VHS directly and then recapture the same VHS with a middleman as pass-through, I expect to see the exact same number of frames. That wasn't the case.

[lordsmurf]

That issue does not exist on the DMR-ES10 that I've ever seen.

If the tape was really, really crappy, as in "you're lucky it plays now!" then well ... you're lucky it plays now! There may be frames repeated from the sync filter doing it's job. It should not be noticeable unless going frame by frame.

[metaleonid]

Actually, you're right. I have seen indeed repeated frames. Visually repeated frames are not noticeable, but when the sound starts going out of sync, then you start notice that.

[lordsmurf]

To update myself here, I've just confirmed that the DMR-ES20 does not have the TBC(ish) passthrough.
Only the ES10 and ES15.
And it's extremely unlikely the ES25 has it.

[metaleonid]

The fact that it straightens vertical lines tells me that it does have TBC. But I’m not an expert.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by metaleonid

The fact that it straightens vertical lines tells me that it does have TBC. But I’m not an expert.

I ran both front and back inputs against one of my bad test tapes. It has not just tearing, but lots of wiggly in-image timing problems. The ES20 completely choked on it, zero effect, unlike the ES10/ES15 which corrects it almost perfectly.

Like with the ES10/15, for the ES20 I plugged in power, input and output, set the input, and then watched on screen. ES10/15 both fix it, ES20 does not.

Is there some special trick if you're saying it works?

[sanlyn]

Having owned and used two copies of the ES20 for several years, I can say that it does have tbc circuitry and works for pass-thru -- but it's not strong enough to stop top border flagging. It works OK with some tapes that are in pristine condition but its low power becomes obvious on most other tapes. That's a shame because its LSI chip does a decent job of noise reduction but it's wasted on a very weak TBC.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

Having owned and used two copies of the ES20 for several years, I can say that it does have tbc circuitry and works for pass-thru -- but it's not strong enough to stop top border flagging. It works OK with some tapes that are in pristine condition but its low power becomes obvious on most other tapes. That's a shame because its LSI chip does a decent job of noise reduction but it's wasted on a very weak TBC.

This makes sense. I'll re-test it on a quality tape, see what happens.

... and note for anybody reading this thread: The ES20/ES25 is NOT suggested due to it being weak.

[metaleonid]

I’m going to get rid of mine anyway. I got ADV7842 from analog devices. It’s one of the best ADC that was ever made. TBC is configurable. No point having DMR-ES25 which suffers from posterezation.

[wimvs]

Did you purchase the ADV7842 evaluation board or make up your own circuit? I am considering purchasing the EVAL-ADV7842-7511P board.

[metaleonid]

Yes, I did. Not sure if you can buy it now though. They have introduced licensing.